RE: 50 limits by the back door: PH Blog

[saaby93]

funkyrobot said:

That is the usual load of bks trotted out by people who are convinced 'the system' is against them. Along with 'arbitrary number on a sign'.

I've read similar before on here by a chap who had been caught speeding again and was due to hit 12 points and maybe a ban. The system was quite clearly against him and it wasn't his fault at all.

Depends
the 12 points may have been due to paperwork errors
or it may have been on a trip he got caught out by places where the limit looks like it should be one thing but its another
None of it, to do with safe progress

On the other hand he may have been bang to rights

[V8 TEJ]

funkyrobot said:

Hackney said:

funkyrobot said:

All of you moaning about people slamming on the brakes should leave more of a gap between you and the vehicle in front.

...into which someone will inevitably swerve (then indicate, if at all) despite the "congestion stay in lane) signs.

Then you adjust your position again. It can de done with minimal hassle.

I did some big motorway mileage a few weeks ago for holiday purposes. I have never seen so much tailgating. People simply do not leave each other enough room. It's no wonder a change of speed limit annoys so many people.

Adjust your position and then the next aggressive driver in their new German, DRL clad, saloon rams his way in too. His 'buddies' who he is having a race with will all want to do the same which ends up annoying the careful driver who is trying to keep his distance.

I cover 20k miles a year, largely on the M25 and have been doing so for the last 10 years. I've only seen this above issue get worse over this time. I have covered the last 100k miles in cars that do not have ABS so do keep my distance like 'the good ol days' etc. but Mr Audi A4 and 3 Series BMW always have other ideas. They even give me a nasty stare as if I'm drastiaccly doing something wrong or lane hogging, even though I'm doing the same speed as car in front.

As cars have progressed and braking technology has been greatly improved, it has created a lot of over confidence with drivers. This will never stop.

Edited by V8 TEJ on Wednesday 29th March 16:57

[P-Jay]

CupMeister said:

I agree 100% we've recently had a stretch of the M4 in Newport converted and there doesn't seem anything smart about it at all. The system is contrived creating a traffic density that just wouldn't exist with out the limits imposed. It often results in cars packed nose to tail and very little space for motorists trying to join from junctions. Now, I understand the idea behind the concept and with the Brynglas tunnels in Newport causing a natural bottle neck it's a sound enough idea. As with many of these things it's the execution that's lacking, and a good deal of fine tuning and no small amount of common sense could improve things massively.

Agree, it doesn't work very well East or West, going East they seem to throw up lower limits for a laugh when the road is fairly quiet.

Going West, what's the point? It's Brynglas, the point when one of the busiest motorways in the UK drops from 3 lanes into 2 - it's either quiet (rarely unless it's in the small hours) or busy, and busy means it's a queue with an average speed of 4-5mph. On a Friday afternoon they'd have to lower the limit for a much longer distance than they can at the moment - say 60mph from about Heathrow and down to 40Mph from Bath to ensure you don't have to queue through the tunnels. I'll never miss doing that once a week.

[Debaser]

Cotic said:

Debaser said:

Also, what is the delay between the signs illuminating, and the cameras working? If a gantry lit up with a speed limit as you passed under, would the camera flash?

I was told (by someone who allegedly knows about this stuff), that they allow you the time to brake sensibly, but not much more than that. I don't think they go from NSL to 40 in one go anyway?

That would be reasonably sensible (which is why I doubt anyone involved has considered it).

[spaximus]

I share Dan's suspicion that what certain people wanted is being done by the back door.

I do 40k per year and for me the worst section for playing with numbers is the M42, 40, 50 60, 40 and yet many times the reason for the traffic being heavy seems to be the cameras. When they are lifted the traffic goes.

The section on the M1 is going to be just as bad and on top of this we now have 4 lanes but stupid people are still in the outside two queuing up to over take the one car 5 miles in front.

If we having these at least allow any lane overtaking as it is not working as designed now.

Also there needs to be a rule made and stuck to that when there are no speed restrictions then all speed detection on motorways is off. In Bristol they are on at 77mph around the M5/M4, what about other areas?

[Gorbyrev]

Right with you Dan. I am sure there are explanation but it is furstrating when speed restrictions are placed on a seemingly open piece of motorway. The wierdest one for me is the A9 which has 9 zones of average speed cameras. It results in some very strange driving behaviour, some of it dangerous, such as the R/R Sport which overtook us in the rain and then slammed on the anchors right infront to keep the average speed down. Just about impossible to navigate without cruise control and I daren't try it on a bike. Hope you get some meaningful answers.

[PhantomPH]

I actually think that Dan is on to something with the 'back door' approach to lower limits, but maybe not even in such a cynical way as 'smart' motorways - just blatantly lowering the limit without consultation.

There is a stretch of the A1 bypass around Newcastle that was down to 50mph average camera limit whilst a tonne of works were done over the last year or so. Those works were widening of the motorway, adding lanes in both directions. The work is now complete, but instead of things being back to they were before (70), there is a new fixed 50mph limit in place.

So the order was:

1) Lower limit
2) Do works to improve traffic flow and access
3) Complete works
4) Retain lower limit

So I st you not - I can be driving that section at any time in the evening where I am one of only 4 or 5 cars within the same visible section, on a brand new, wide 3 (and on occasion 4) lane wide A road and STILL have to do 50mph. I just don't get it. The buggers sometimes cone off the outside lane and park a SCAM van there as well, catching people.

The most ironic part? You round the corner back on to the old 2-lane A1 with multiple slip roads and it's back to NSL!! WTF?? My prediction in writing now, is that it's about 12-18months before the remaining 2-lane stretch is reduced to a permanent 50mph as well based on the number of SCAM fines being issued. (They park where people speed up and catch those who jump on the gas a little too quickly after their patience has completely run out and they want to get on up the near empty motorway).

That was my long way of saying it's not just 'smart' motorways - I fear NSL will be largely replaced by longer and longer sections of fixed limits that are below NSL.

[sonnenschein3000]

Hackney said:

You know it's a right wing (centre-right) government don't you, has been for some time.
And Corbyn has no control at all over the motorways, police or points on your licence.

Or were you being provocative for effect?

The government may be centre right, but that doesn't change the Corbynite mentality of those working in many public services.

[sonnenschein3000]

funkyrobot said:

That is the usual load of bks trotted out by people who are convinced 'the system' is against them. Along with 'arbitrary number on a sign'.

I've read similar before on here by a chap who had been caught speeding again and was due to hit 12 points and maybe a ban. The system was quite clearly against him and it wasn't his fault at all.

Ok, so let me ask you this, the fact that they put a limit of e.g. 50mph on an empty motorway isn't rediculous? Can you name one single valid reason as to why this is a good idea ?

[struttob]

What is the definition of a "Smart Motorway" ? I had assumed that it was due to the speed limits being automatically operated by the level of traffic flow, obviously in the case of the M1 this is not the case. I assume that the speed limits are imposed manually by some tt who rides a bicycle to work every day.

Bob

[MartyG1987]

I use the M62 most Friday last afternoons and they switch on the 60mph from Bradford to at least Leeds at about midday. It does seem a bit silly, traffic levels tend to vary but it does flow reasonably well.

My method of coping is just to set my cruise control to 2mph below the limit and accept that I can do feck all about it...

[hornbaek]

Great article. Unlike countries like Germany where speed limits are there for a reason and people obey them because they are based on a hazard down the road (road works or sharp bend etc) here the speed limits on motorways are often without any reasoning at all. Once people find that out they start distrusting the system. A good example is on the M4 out to Heathrow where the system often says 50 mph without any hazard turning up. Once you have experienced that a couple of times you simply ignore the sign and continue with the NSL. If the Government starts to be honest about speed limits people will start respecting them but as long as speed limits are a way of making people pay fines all trust has been lost.

[sonnenschein3000]

hornbaek said:

Great article. Unlike countries like Germany where speed limits are there for a reason and people obey them because they are based on a hazard down the road (road works or sharp bend etc) here the speed limits on motorways are often without any reasoning at all. Once people find that out they start distrusting the system. A good example is on the M4 out to Heathrow where the system often says 50 mph without any hazard turning up. Once you have experienced that a couple of times you simply ignore the sign and continue with the NSL. If the Government starts to be honest about speed limits people will start respecting them but as long as speed limits are a way of making people pay fines all trust has been lost.

+1

[Sump]

MartyG1987 said:

My method of coping is just to set my cruise control to 2mph below the limit and accept that I can do feck all about it...

This. Also purchasing a luxury car knowing that everyone is doing the same in utter stboxes helps.

[Kenny Powers]

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree it is tedious, I have to say that I seem to spend more time on motorways these days doing 50mph than I do sat stationary, so perhaps they do work. Playing devil's advocate and all that.

Good article. Very well written. Dan is developing quite the flair for fluid, engaging writing that I can easily relate to

[boxedin]

PhantomPH said:

There is a stretch of the A1 bypass around Newcastle that was down to 50mph average camera limit whilst a tonne of works were done over the last year or so. Those works were widening of the motorway, adding lanes in both directions. The work is now complete, but instead of things being back to they were before (70), there is a new fixed 50mph limit in place.

If you were right they'd have extended the 50 mph all the way up to the A69 junction for instance, but they haven't.

The 50mph section covers the main junctions from Team Valley to the MetroCentre / Swalwell. Once you're approaching the 'B&Q' bridge its NSL again.

Personally speaking, the 50mph limit and widening has been great.

[Oddball RS]

SturdyHSV said:

DiscoColin said:

There is simply no justification for all of this 50mph/variable limit rubbish except where either there actually are people in the process of conducting road works or the traffic really is heading into a block of stationary traffic in a proper old fashioned jam. Almost never the case. It is ridiculous.

The idea being that by reducing the flow early, it avoid the slow down becoming a proper old fashioned jam, which as you say, is almost never the case, so it could be working?

All of the Highways England (now Traffic England) data is available here:

www.trafficengland.com

You can see the flow data they're working with, sign information etc, and you can actually subscribe to have this data sent to you every minute if you get really bored!

Speaking as someone not quite fully on the other side, but who works for a company that produces the traffic monitoring equipment and the software to distribute and analyse the data, I've got a reasonable insight into how the stuff works, and would be happy to answer some questions Dan.

There's actually the traffic industry's main UK exhibition (I know, exciting...) next week at the NEC (Traffex, it's free entry), if you want to come over to our stand on Wednesday I'll be there and could happily show you around the software, including showing you the Highways England data they have that the signs are working based on etc. it's not quite the control centre but it's the same source data and probably easier to organise...

Ok as the offer is there, lets take where the M18 Southbound joins the M1, two lanes of faster traffic from the left bottleneck trying to get onto the often 50 limited M1, you then get stuck trying to get of at J31 (Which is too close) as you cant get through the que of traffic to exit - leads many to stupid antics. How should this work?

The Tinsley viaduct, three lanes at best,(Often two) and four before and after therefore an invented situation and 50mph!

J28 which is often busy with standing traffic trying to exit for the A38, so the not 'smart' signage warns the M1 users and slows them 50 - 40 - 30, why does it do this at times when there is no congestion? they are 'smart' no? that clever they anticipate the rush hour three hours in advance? or its just a cash scam?

A1 north of the M62 today, I was told for around 25 miles that the next services were closed, I don't have short term memory loss and there are plenty of pumps at the side of the A1.

M74 today, smart signage advised me to check my tyre tread and not to alter my satnav whilst driving. Really? this is not needed. What next 'Did you leave the gas on?' 'Have you paid for your daughters school dinners this week?' How long before we get the first sponsored signs with ads on when not in official use?

An abject waste of money replaced by active satnav before they were even built.

[Agent57]

We've had it on the M3 down here for years and they're about to start on the M4 once they've finished ruining the M3.

[DelicaL400]

Oddball RS said:

M74 today, smart signage advised me to check my tyre tread and not to alter my satnav whilst driving. Really? this is not needed. What next 'Did you leave the gas on?' 'Have you paid for your daughters school dinners this week?' How long before we get the first sponsored signs with ads on when not in official use?

My favourite M74 one is something like "don't mix drink and drugs". Presumably drink or drugs on their own is ok then?

[traffman]

DelicaL400 said:

Oddball RS said:

M74 today, smart signage advised me to check my tyre tread and not to alter my satnav whilst driving. Really? this is not needed. What next 'Did you leave the gas on?' 'Have you paid for your daughters school dinners this week?' How long before we get the first sponsored signs with ads on when not in official use?

My favourite M74 one is something like "don't mix drink and drugs". Presumably drink or drugs on their own is ok then?

Gantry sign on M74 yesterday asked if i was prepared for winter?