RE: Lotus Emeya finishes testing, looks great doing it

[Forester1965]

In this age of electric drivetrains, what product USPs are there for manufactures to cling on to? Pretty much everybody from the Chinese to the Americans to the Europeans can now churn out a 600+hp saloon/SUV at decent quality and price.

I wonder how/if Lotus are going to gain market share when their name hasn't meant much for many buyers for such a long time? Surely their target market must be China/US but it remains to be seen how much traction they can get.

[RacerMike]

otolith said:

RacerMike said:

otolith said:

Seal is an entirely different class, though.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/byd/seal

You said 'I'll wait for a BYD or a Zeekr to get as good reviews for its dynamics' though, and that's what I was responding to. You didn't specify it had to be a direct Emeya competitor!

The reviews seem to be that it's surprisingly OK for what it is. But they're going to be tempered by expectations, so it's being assessed against the Model 3. Now maybe they will release a large, high performance SUV with a sporting and luxury brief, and it will drive just like an Eletra. Maybe they will release a smaller one that will drive just like an electric Macan, I'm not convinced that German engineers are smarter than Chinese ones (including the ones who designed the Lotus). Lotus historically and Porsche (with their badge engineered VW products) have shown that you can tweak a shared platform and bits of other people's cars to embody brand values.

At the moment, European engineers do a better job of targeting attribute performance than Chinese ones. Chinese buyers are less demanding of ride, handling and consistent attribute performance than European buyers too which only supports this status quo, and this is why cars like the Seal have been tuned in Europe for the European markets. This has been common practice with brands like Nissan and Honda for years too.

Of all the OEMs Porsche have one of the most well defined and consistent vehicle attribute performance metrics of any manufacturer. The steering of a Taycan 4S feels incredibly similar to a GT3 RS and their dynamic performance is across all platforms is very similar from the ground up. They have some very thorough design rules that define things like suspension hard points that come from a greater depth of understanding than most Chinese car companies have.

Regardless of the amount of input Lotus (UK) engineers have had, they're going to have a harder job defining what a Lotus is as a) they've done nothing buy small lightweight sports cars for years and b) don't have a strong base of customers who have expectations. Separating themselves from other generic Chinese offerings is a tough gig if they're being handed a fully engineered car and given very little input at the start. There's only so much you can do once the bulk of the development has already been completed which is what I understood has happened with the Eletre and Emeya (and indeed from what I've seen of the multitude of non Lotus people developing the cars over the last few years).

[otolith]

RacerMike said:

At the moment, European engineers do a better job of targeting attribute performance than Chinese ones. Chinese buyers are less demanding of ride, handling and consistent attribute performance than European buyers too which only supports this status quo, and this is why cars like the Seal have been tuned in Europe for the European markets. This has been common practice with brands like Nissan and Honda for years too.

Absolutely. But there's no point in investing in development that the target market doesn't care about.

[911Spanker]

Silvanus said:

Nomme de Plum said:

Silvanus said:

Nomme de Plum said:

911Spanker said:

Does itake sense to keep Lotus Norfolk at all?

Depends whether it can wash its face financially. If yes then the Heritage value may make it a worthwhile to retain it.

They cut about 200 jobs at Lotus Tech in Norfolk last year and are about to cut another 30, make of that what you will.

Looks like they may still have over 1,000 so still a sizeable number.

They made a loss £145M in 2022 so something needed to be done to keep the company viable. Unfortunately a few posters seem to think a specialist car company like Lotus can run on fairy dust and an enthusiastic following.

Unfortunately the Emeya and Eletre will not contribute any profit to Lotus Tech in Norfolk.

Makes sense to shut UK operations really. It's a Chinese manufacturer now so dump Norfolk and continue as is. Buyers won't know or care in all reality.

Much like MG.

[Nomme de Plum]

911Spanker said:

Makes sense to shut UK operations really. It's a Chinese manufacturer now so dump Norfolk and continue as is. Buyers won't know or care in all reality.

Much like MG.

I don't think it is like MG. The MG we, of a certain age, recognise went out of production decades ago if you include the MG Metro and Maestro. Lotus cars are still in production. Lotus in Norfolk was more than just car production.

Whether the Lotus brand can attract premium pricing in the EV world has yet to be seen. Of course i could chuck the B word in the mix and whilst it won't be the main cause of off shoring it will not have helped.

[ajap1979]

Forester1965 said:

In this age of electric drivetrains, what product USPs are there for manufactures to cling on to? Pretty much everybody from the Chinese to the Americans to the Europeans can now churn out a 600+hp saloon/SUV at decent quality and price.

Genuine question, in recent times how many manufacturers have used drivetrains as a USP? And let’s be honest, of the vast car buying public, who is really bothered? It may be a consideration for the enthusiast, but I bet I could ask everyone I know, and no-one would be able to pinpoint to any difference over the last car they had, beyond perhaps what MPG they get out of it.

Also consider that Tesla is deemed to have the most valuable brand within the automotive sector.

PS, completely agree on your second point. Lotus have a huge job to do instilling some meaning with their new target audience.

Edited by ajap1979 on Monday 12th February 16:07

[Silvia Surfer]

J4CKO said:

wistec1 said:

It pains me to say yet again that for me Lotus and Electric together will never be of any interest. The concept is contradictory. Yet another brand lost to the ideology of EV.

You just copied that from the Fiat 500 thread, getting like that Moose bloke who just says "EV = NO".

If Lotus make it, its not contradictory, its just your nostalgic view of a car company and wonder why things cant be like the past any more.

They adapt or go the way of Rover, Saab etc, and adapting means making electric vehicles.

Folk need to get used to this, or its going to be very stressful, I mean, huge companies not doing what you want, the very nerve !

Better get used to things adapting to synthetic fuels then.
Embrace them or get left behind!

[Silvia Surfer]

Miserablegit said:

Let’s not pretend this is a Lotus. It’s a Chinese car from a Chinese factory for the Chinese market with a lotus badge stuck on.

100%

[Forester1965]

ajap1979 said:

Genuine question, in recent times how many manufacturers have used drivetrains as a USP?

I should have phrased it better. The halo models produced by brands such as Audi, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes etc used to stand out because products of that power and specialist ICE weren't usually available from the second and third string manufacturers. Now any old brand seems to rock up with a 500-1000hp electric drivetrain. It seems easier to mass produce a 600hp electric car than a 600hp ICE one.

That being the case, how do the so called premium brands intend to justify their extra cost?

For example, a BYD Seal Excellence has 523hp and 0-60 in 3.8 seconds for £48k. The i4 M50 has only 20hp more, slower to 60mph and costs £72k (50% more!). All you seem to get for that is brand value and perhaps faster charging.

[Nomme de Plum]

Silvia Surfer said:

Miserablegit said:

Let’s not pretend this is a Lotus. It’s a Chinese car from a Chinese factory for the Chinese market with a lotus badge stuck on.

100%

Perhaps explain to us exactly what a Lotus is. I've owned a couple so I am curious.

[otolith]

Nomme de Plum said:

Perhaps explain to us exactly what a Lotus is. I've owned a couple so I am curious.

Something that most of the people bemoaning the change wouldn't buy either.

[Silvanus]

Nomme de Plum said:

Silvia Surfer said:

Miserablegit said:

Let’s not pretend this is a Lotus. It’s a Chinese car from a Chinese factory for the Chinese market with a lotus badge stuck on.

100%

Perhaps explain to us exactly what a Lotus is. I've owned a couple so I am curious.

I guess a car designed and developed in Hethel by Lotus Tech, possibly built there would be seen by many as a proper Lotus. To some, the type of car perhaps less of an issue. A car designed and developed in China by Lotus Cars with the tiniest of touches carried out in Europe, less so. That's not to say these cars aren't good cars, this one is probably as good as a large sporting EV gets.

Would a two seater lightweight petrol roadster, designed, developed and built in Wuhan, with no input from Norfolk be a proper Lotus?

[otolith]

Silvanus said:

Would a two seater lightweight petrol roadster, designed, developed and built in Wuhan, with no input from Norfolk be a proper Lotus?

Hypothetically, can you tell by driving it?

[Silvanus]

otolith said:

Silvanus said:

Would a two seater lightweight petrol roadster, designed, developed and built in Wuhan, with no input from Norfolk be a proper Lotus?

Hypothetically, can you tell by driving it?

let's say it's the best handling small car available, a modern Chinese designed and built Elise.

What if one was developed in Norfolk and the handling was crap?

[AndrewNR]

Forester1965 said:

In this age of electric drivetrains, what product USPs are there for manufactures to cling on to? Pretty much everybody from the Chinese to the Americans to the Europeans can now churn out a 600+hp saloon/SUV at decent quality and price.

I wonder how/if Lotus are going to gain market share when their name hasn't meant much for many buyers for such a long time? Surely their target market must be China/US but it remains to be seen how much traction they can get.

Maybe work on the "Imagine"

[Nomme de Plum]

Silvanus said:

otolith said:

Silvanus said:

Would a two seater lightweight petrol roadster, designed, developed and built in Wuhan, with no input from Norfolk be a proper Lotus?

Hypothetically, can you tell by driving it?

let's say it's the best handling small car available, a modern Chinese designed and built Elise.

What if one was developed in Norfolk and the handling was crap?

We have the Mazda Mx5, Alpine and Boxter/Cayman at different price points that already fulfil the need. My S1 Exige was toy car as was subsequent Elises. Lotus sold in relatively few numbers and rarely make a profit.

I find it hard to believe that posters still think that cars can be designed and built then sold at a loss in tiny numbers for a product they won't buy anyway. Fantasy land.

[biggbn]

Silvanus said:

Nomme de Plum said:

Silvia Surfer said:

Miserablegit said:

Let’s not pretend this is a Lotus. It’s a Chinese car from a Chinese factory for the Chinese market with a lotus badge stuck on.

100%

Perhaps explain to us exactly what a Lotus is. I've owned a couple so I am curious.

I guess a car designed and developed in Hethel by Lotus Tech, possibly built there would be seen by many as a proper Lotus. To some, the type of car perhaps less of an issue. A car designed and developed in China by Lotus Cars with the tiniest of touches carried out in Europe, less so. That's not to say these cars aren't good cars, this one is probably as good as a large sporting EV gets.

Would a two seater lightweight petrol roadster, designed, developed and built in Wuhan, with no input from Norfolk be a proper Lotus?

Like the Kia Elan? Or the fact the Excel used a Toyota engine for a bit, I think? Or the various 'lotus' engineered hot hatches? Or the Carlton? The name on the nose merely suggests a level of engineering and design, for me where its built is irrelevant as long as those standards are maintained.

[biggbn]

Nomme de Plum said:

Silvanus said:

otolith said:

Silvanus said:

Would a two seater lightweight petrol roadster, designed, developed and built in Wuhan, with no input from Norfolk be a proper Lotus?

Hypothetically, can you tell by driving it?

let's say it's the best handling small car available, a modern Chinese designed and built Elise.

What if one was developed in Norfolk and the handling was crap?

We have the Mazda Mx5, Alpine and Boxter/Cayman at different price points that already fulfil the need. My S1 Exige was toy car as was subsequent Elises. Lotus sold in relatively few numbers and rarely make a profit.

I find it hard to believe that posters still think that cars can be designed and built then sold at a loss in tiny numbers for a product they won't buy anyway. Fantasy land.

If the mk1 mx5 was built at Hethel using exactly the same mechanicals and had a lotus badge, would it be a lotus? Ooh, it's fun this, isn't it?

[Silvanus]

biggbn said:

Nomme de Plum said:

Silvanus said:

otolith said:

Silvanus said:

Would a two seater lightweight petrol roadster, designed, developed and built in Wuhan, with no input from Norfolk be a proper Lotus?

Hypothetically, can you tell by driving it?

let's say it's the best handling small car available, a modern Chinese designed and built Elise.

What if one was developed in Norfolk and the handling was crap?

We have the Mazda Mx5, Alpine and Boxter/Cayman at different price points that already fulfil the need. My S1 Exige was toy car as was subsequent Elises. Lotus sold in relatively few numbers and rarely make a profit.

I find it hard to believe that posters still think that cars can be designed and built then sold at a loss in tiny numbers for a product they won't buy anyway. Fantasy land.

If the mk1 mx5 was built at Hethel using exactly the same mechanicals and had a lotus badge, would it be a lotus? Ooh, it's fun this, isn't it?

It does show that there is more to it than a badge and where it's built. Everyone will have a slightly different opinion.

[otolith]

Silvanus said:

otolith said:

Silvanus said:

Would a two seater lightweight petrol roadster, designed, developed and built in Wuhan, with no input from Norfolk be a proper Lotus?

Hypothetically, can you tell by driving it?

let's say it's the best handling small car available, a modern Chinese designed and built Elise.

What if one was developed in Norfolk and the handling was crap?

I would choose the Chinese one. The reason I own a Lotus is for what it does, not for the badge or the place of origin. I would happily have had a VX220 if I thought I would prefer the car (don’t like turbos, don’t like the styling, don’t like the reports of what the wheel sizing did to the handling). Lotus can’t make the kind of car I like anymore, because nobody else wants them, so while I wish them well, I don’t really care what they make. The Caterham looks interesting if I ever need to replace the Elise with an EV.

As to whether their interpretation of a big electric SUV or saloon is a real Lotus - well, there are no precedents for it, so if the company with the right to the name says that’s what a big fk-off electric Lotus is like, that’s what one is. A Cayenne seems to be accepted as a Porsche these days, even made in a VW plant in Slovakia. These companies are global.