RE: 2024 Volkswagen ID 7 vs. Hyundai Ioniq 6
Discussion
soupdragon1 said:
I've an ID3, upgraded performance but the weight makes a difference. I enjoy driving it and while you could argue it's got hot hatch specs, it doesn't drive like one. I enjoy driving it though. It's predictable and nippy.
If you've a car with 3 adults in it, it makes a huge difference versus driving solo. In an EV, you're always carrying those 3 adults.
High power, low weight EVs are difficult because even using the same motor, the bigger the battery, the more the motor can draw from said battery. You can see it on std/longe range versions where the LR is faster despite having the same motor set up. So the extra weight is pretty much compulsory in fast EVs. It's not possible to have speed and low weight in an EV with current tech.
So that's the headwinds. Like I said earlier, there are positives too, namely price. For sub £40k, it's possible to engineer a sub 4 second EV that's 'fairly' light. Think EX30 specs but in a 4wd Mazda MX5 body. Would people buy one? Dunno, but it's a gap in the market that is empty right now, bar ICE kit cars.
I had a drive in a Maserati gran cabrio not that long ago and while a Tesla Plaid would smoke it, my desire for a plaid is very low versus that 4.7L Ferrari engine. Was such a great car to drive, beautifully planted and you feel connected at all times. But, £40k won't have me behind the wheel of a new one, unfortunately.
I truly believe EVs can tick a box for some people due to what they can achieve at lower price points. Still waiting for the MG cyberster pricing but that's being designed as an EV sports car at a low price point. Although, they seem like they keep moving the goalposts on specs and price. Due this year sometime, although they've been saying that for a few years now.
Yes the weight makes a difference. But the 1800kg of an M5 will be just as heavy as the 1800kg of an Ioniq 5. Only the Ioniq 5 has got the weight lower down. So it really differs what you're comparing it too. What we cannot do yet is an Exige or MX5 that perhaps slightly heavier. But that will come. Last week some Chinese cooperation decided to cooperate on developing solid state batteries. That will half (or even more) the weight of batteries. Names like BYD, CATL and NIO are in that cooperation. And then there's a host of other developments going on. So no, we cannot replicate the ICE-market in every aspect at this moment (while at the same time EV has some advantages of it's own). But we will get closer to the point that disadvantages will be so small and advantages so big that rationally it won't be a discussion anymore.If you've a car with 3 adults in it, it makes a huge difference versus driving solo. In an EV, you're always carrying those 3 adults.
High power, low weight EVs are difficult because even using the same motor, the bigger the battery, the more the motor can draw from said battery. You can see it on std/longe range versions where the LR is faster despite having the same motor set up. So the extra weight is pretty much compulsory in fast EVs. It's not possible to have speed and low weight in an EV with current tech.
So that's the headwinds. Like I said earlier, there are positives too, namely price. For sub £40k, it's possible to engineer a sub 4 second EV that's 'fairly' light. Think EX30 specs but in a 4wd Mazda MX5 body. Would people buy one? Dunno, but it's a gap in the market that is empty right now, bar ICE kit cars.
I had a drive in a Maserati gran cabrio not that long ago and while a Tesla Plaid would smoke it, my desire for a plaid is very low versus that 4.7L Ferrari engine. Was such a great car to drive, beautifully planted and you feel connected at all times. But, £40k won't have me behind the wheel of a new one, unfortunately.
I truly believe EVs can tick a box for some people due to what they can achieve at lower price points. Still waiting for the MG cyberster pricing but that's being designed as an EV sports car at a low price point. Although, they seem like they keep moving the goalposts on specs and price. Due this year sometime, although they've been saying that for a few years now.
Then there is the emotional discussion of course. I too like the sound of a nice ICE. The mechanics of it all etcetera. In general people aren't very good at changing. But from a certain generation onwards people will have grown up with EV's. They will have a completely different perspective to ours and not understand much of our emotional attachments to noisy, oily, moving mechanical stuff. I keep my hopes up that given enough change can be made, a small amount of space will exist for the lovers of that noisy, oily, moving mechanical stuff. If not, I will move on and get something electric that's nice to drive with a good steer, good suspension etcetera and just accept it as not the end of the world. These changes are not just because and I support that cause. Luckily I see other here do too
Edited by _ppan on Sunday 18th February 11:50
_ppan said:
Yes the weight makes a difference. But the 1800kg of an M5 will be just as heavy as the 1800kg of an Ioniq 5. Only the Ioniq 5 has got the weight lower down. So it really differs what you're comparing it too. What we cannot do yet is an Exige or MX5 that perhaps slightly heavier. But that will come. Last week some Chinese cooperation decided to cooperate on developing solid state batteries. That will half (or even more) the weight of batteries. Names like BYD, CATL and NIO are in that cooperation. And then there's a host of other developments going on. So no, we cannot replicate the ICE-market in every aspect at this moment (while at the same time EV has some advantages of it's own). But we will get closer to the point that disadvantages will be so small and advantages so big that rationally it won't be a discussion anymore.
Then there is the emotional discussion of course. I too like the sound of a nice ICE. The mechanics of it all etcetera. In general people aren't very good at changing. But from a certain generation onwards people will have grown up with EV's. They will have a completely different perspective to ours and not understand much of our emotional attachments to noisy, oily, moving mechanical stuff. I keep my hopes up that given enough change can be made, a small amount of space will exist for the lovers of that noisy, oily, moving mechanical stuff. If not, I will move on and get something electric that's nice to drive with a good steer, good suspension etcetera and just accept it as not the end of the world. These changes are not just because and I support that cause. Luckily I see other here do too
That 1800kg Ioniq is the smaller battery one though, and is pretty slow, 8.5 seconds to 60. My point was that with current EV tech, you can't really have light and fast together, as you need a big battery to go fast in an EV.Then there is the emotional discussion of course. I too like the sound of a nice ICE. The mechanics of it all etcetera. In general people aren't very good at changing. But from a certain generation onwards people will have grown up with EV's. They will have a completely different perspective to ours and not understand much of our emotional attachments to noisy, oily, moving mechanical stuff. I keep my hopes up that given enough change can be made, a small amount of space will exist for the lovers of that noisy, oily, moving mechanical stuff. If not, I will move on and get something electric that's nice to drive with a good steer, good suspension etcetera and just accept it as not the end of the world. These changes are not just because and I support that cause. Luckily I see other here do too
Edited by _ppan on Sunday 18th February 11:50
Like you mention, things could change with better battery tech.
soupdragon1 said:
That 1800kg Ioniq is the smaller battery one though, and is pretty slow, 8.5 seconds to 60. My point was that with current EV tech, you can't really have light and fast together, as you need a big battery to go fast in an EV.
Like you mention, things could change with better battery tech.
Yes exactly Like you mention, things could change with better battery tech.
It's just that I often see people complain about EV weight (not you) that drive ICE cars that are slightly under 2 tonnes...which the long range Ioniq 5 is too. I'm really anxious to see how battery tech will develop in the coming years. The manufacturer that supplies batteries for VAG (Northvolt) has started production of salt-batteries. No more risk of fire like with li-ion, li-po, ICE and also lifepo (though that has a smaller risk). And also no need for rare earth metals. Also interesting for home usage! But energy density now is too low for car usage. There's so much happening, it's really interesting. Also on the performance EV side, I wonde what an Ioniq 5N drives like. It gets really good review. But no MX5 / Exige weight yet, that's true
I do wonder how far they'd get with an MX5 electric concept that has, let's say, 100 miles range in the winter and then more in the summer with the lightest config possible (I don't know is a single motor with axles and diff or 2 seperate motors is lighter for example). Put the motor(s) in the back so the transaxle is not necessary anymore. That'll also save weight. And if one would like to use counterweight, literally, the battery could me mounted more forward as to keep a front engined rear wheel drive character. I have looked up some numbers.
The weight of the Ioniq 28kwh battery pack, it's 272kg including electronics and wiring. Must not be much more than the MX5 engine, gearbox and transaxle. Bút, this battery has a density of 109wh/kg. A newer gen Taycan does 143wh/kg. 143/109= 1,31. 1,31 * 28 = 36,7kwh with current tech. That sounds like winter mileage will be more like 150 miles as such a small car will be really efficient. Range demand met. Also, the Ioniq does 109hp and 295nm with that battery, rough estimate would be 130hp and 375nm of torque. Should be much fun in the corners without traction control
Tesla has an electric motor putting out 300hp and it weighs 50kg. Obviously it will not output 300hp with a 37kwh battery but it doesn't need to in such a light car. It just goes to show that you don't need a heavy motor for big power.
So 322kg for the motor, battery and electronics. That isn't as bad as one would think is it? I'd almost think an electric MX5 must be possible around 1200kg. Yes it's heavier, but that is at least partially compensated by a lower COG.
MX5's have never been about big power so a big battery for big current and thus big power isn't necessary. It won't be for everyone but it would be a nice demonstration to see what's currently possible.
Sources: evspecifications.com, weightofstuff.com
Edit: on miata.net I found a nice description of ICE-parts weight in a similar discussion:
The ND engine is 290 lbs with a full sump and all accessories. The transmission is 95 lbs. The differential is 55 for an open diff, and there's 11 lbs of driveshaft. A full fuel tank is about 75 lbs for the fuel (I don't have weight for the tank itself) and the battery is 25 lbs. There's 49 lbs in the exhaust system. Let's just assume that the cooling system stays the same.
I wonder if there's anything missing, cause if not the weight gain really won't be all that big....Of course there is the loss of the wonderfull manual shift and ICE noise.
Edited by _ppan on Sunday 18th February 20:49
paul13 said:
Not sure about others opinion, however, the more EV articles on PH the less inclined I am to visit the website. May eventually reach the point I don't visit PH at all and stick to the classic car (i.e. ICE engines) websites/forums.
Will join you on that. Which are the best ones worth visiting?PH is pretty crap these days and a far cry from what it was.
EVery time I visit Piston heads news, there's another EV article. I wish they'd stop trying to ram these down our throat as an enthusiasts choices.
If I wanted to read about cars I'm not remotely interested in, I've frequent Auto Express,
Pistonheads doesn't give a toss, they just want readers to comment and dislike, it seems. My interest in this website has already declined vastly. It's pretty much a waste of time now.
If I wanted to read about cars I'm not remotely interested in, I've frequent Auto Express,
Pistonheads doesn't give a toss, they just want readers to comment and dislike, it seems. My interest in this website has already declined vastly. It's pretty much a waste of time now.
911Spanker said:
paul13 said:
Not sure about others opinion, however, the more EV articles on PH the less inclined I am to visit the website. May eventually reach the point I don't visit PH at all and stick to the classic car (i.e. ICE engines) websites/forums.
Will join you on that. Which are the best ones worth visiting?PH is pretty crap these days and a far cry from what it was.
We can still enjoy/chat about ICE for a bit longer I reckon.
911Spanker said:
Will join you on that. Which are the best ones worth visiting?
PH is pretty crap these days and a far cry from what it was.
I have an Elise S1 so visit this forum a lot: https://forums.thelotusforums.com/PH is pretty crap these days and a far cry from what it was.
cerb4.5lee said:
911Spanker said:
paul13 said:
Not sure about others opinion, however, the more EV articles on PH the less inclined I am to visit the website. May eventually reach the point I don't visit PH at all and stick to the classic car (i.e. ICE engines) websites/forums.
Will join you on that. Which are the best ones worth visiting?PH is pretty crap these days and a far cry from what it was.
We can still enjoy/chat about ICE for a bit longer I reckon.
cerb4.5lee said:
Performance EVs don't really make sense because they're heavy/expensive, and lets face it...just not as exciting as a performance ICE car in comparison from a noise/emotion/desire point of view
Haha, you still haven’t driven a Taycan Turbo after all this time, have you?Instead, you type out thousands of words, talking yourself out of it.
Could it be that you are worried you might like it?
CheesecakeRunner said:
They’re not meant to be performance cars. The performance, such as it is, comes free from the EV drivetrain.
They’re the modern version of a Sierra, a Vectra, a Passat, a Mondeo, a 320d, a C180. They intended for pottering back and forth to an anonymous trading/office estate on the edge of a boring town during the week, and taking the kids swimming on a Saturday morning. And that’s not a bad thing, there is a need for such vehicles for many people, most of whom get them given to them.
It’s true what you say. But…They’re the modern version of a Sierra, a Vectra, a Passat, a Mondeo, a 320d, a C180. They intended for pottering back and forth to an anonymous trading/office estate on the edge of a boring town during the week, and taking the kids swimming on a Saturday morning. And that’s not a bad thing, there is a need for such vehicles for many people, most of whom get them given to them.
A bread & butter car back then didn’t cost 1.5 uk ave salary.
It had a decent residual demand when it was time to sell it.
It could be fuelled anywhere like the car you used to have and didn’t require either a driveway or detailed route planning.
It’s this that a lot of EV evangelicals don’t seem to consider and is the reason the market between manufacturers / governments going only EV and punters wanting just EVs is diverging at such a rate of knots.
Gigamoons said:
It’s true what you say. But…
A bread & butter car back then didn’t cost 1.5 uk ave salary.
It had a decent residual demand when it was time to sell it.
It could be fuelled anywhere like the car you used to have and didn’t require either a driveway or detailed route planning.
It’s this that a lot of EV evangelicals don’t seem to consider and is the reason the market between manufacturers / governments going only EV and punters wanting just EVs is diverging at such a rate of knots.
All cars are expensive nowadays. I bought a new 200bhp EP3 in 2003 for £14k after discount. You can't even buy the top of the range 1.0 litre Picanto for anything less than £17k nowadays. Meanwhile the FL5 id nudging £50k. Quite a leap in 20 years.A bread & butter car back then didn’t cost 1.5 uk ave salary.
It had a decent residual demand when it was time to sell it.
It could be fuelled anywhere like the car you used to have and didn’t require either a driveway or detailed route planning.
It’s this that a lot of EV evangelicals don’t seem to consider and is the reason the market between manufacturers / governments going only EV and punters wanting just EVs is diverging at such a rate of knots.
EVs are expensive for good reason, if you understand how new tech. That pretty much answers all your points. You don't need to be an EV evangelical to understand that.
Chris Harris with positive things to say about the IONIQ 5N
https://youtu.be/TcbsW_mvNh8?si=KYZJKNncVooxjnI7
https://youtu.be/TcbsW_mvNh8?si=KYZJKNncVooxjnI7
GT9 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Performance EVs don't really make sense because they're heavy/expensive, and lets face it...just not as exciting as a performance ICE car in comparison from a noise/emotion/desire point of view
Haha, you still haven’t driven a Taycan Turbo after all this time, have you?Instead, you type out thousands of words, talking yourself out of it.
Could it be that you are worried you might like it?
GT9 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Performance EVs don't really make sense because they're heavy/expensive, and lets face it...just not as exciting as a performance ICE car in comparison from a noise/emotion/desire point of view
Haha, you still haven’t driven a Taycan Turbo after all this time, have you?Instead, you type out thousands of words, talking yourself out of it.
Could it be that you are worried you might like it?
In saying that...you're right and I do need to try one really.
It seems the sheen has come off the electric car world! It doesn't seem that long ago that the Ioniq 6 was "ooh exciting" in all the car reviews and now it's just an average white good.
Also interested in the 4 miles/kWh figure in the article. Just watched a What Car review on that there youtube and they drove the ID7 from London to Wales and back and it averaged 2.7, which was much worse than the Model 3 and BYD Seal on the same test... How did PH manage to get 4?
Also interested in the 4 miles/kWh figure in the article. Just watched a What Car review on that there youtube and they drove the ID7 from London to Wales and back and it averaged 2.7, which was much worse than the Model 3 and BYD Seal on the same test... How did PH manage to get 4?
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