Overcoming ISA and Lane Assist etc on post July 2024 Cars
Discussion
thecremeegg said:
My 2023 BMW has lane assist on by default and it's hopeless so I turn it off by default when I get in. Thankfully my car just missed the audio bongs for speed limits as I genuinely think I would go spare listening to that.
It uses a camera to see the speed limits which works 90% of the time but the 0ther 10% it often thinks the limit is 40 on a motorway or similar, utterly infuriating.
Careful you might upset PF62 on this thread by turning off vehicle safety features and heavens above actually driving it on a public road...It uses a camera to see the speed limits which works 90% of the time but the 0ther 10% it often thinks the limit is 40 on a motorway or similar, utterly infuriating.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
IanH755 said:
My two "modern safety systems can be dangerous at times" tales are from a hire car (a 2021 Peugeot 3008 I think) which had both brake assist (auto stopping if you don't brake) and lane assist (stops you drifting out of lane).
Both of these systems were completely new to me at the time and this was the first time I'd ever driven a car with them and within 2 days both had nearly caused accidents.
1. Brake Assist - On a dual carriage way there was traffic on the slip road and the car thought I was going to hit the rear most van on it as I drove past in the left lane. I wasn't but the car took away my control of the car and slammed on the brakes to an emergency stop without giving me any warning before it did it, which not only scared the living crap out of me, but also removed an element of driver control as I now had to control a "squirming under brakes" car without having the mental headstart that you get when YOU are the one jumping on the brakes. Luckily there was nothing close enough behind me to be forced to stop or crash into me.
2. Lane Assist - On a country road I went to overtake a cyclist but, as there was no traffic, I didn't use my indicator. As I started to move over the white line to pass the cyclist the car once more took away my control of the car and physically turned the steering wheel back into my lane and towards the cyclist, again without any warning (no lights, bongs etc) which again led to what I felt was a dangerous situation.
I understand that these things can be a huge safety bonus, I do, but anything that takes away my direct control of the car "without warning" I think is dangerous. Now, to be fair, as it was a hire car I have no idea if there "should" have been some warning bongs/lights but they were inhibited by a previous driver or if the 3008 even comes with lights/bongs but I am absolutely 100% certain that in both occasions there was zero warning from the car before if took away my control.
Yup.Both of these systems were completely new to me at the time and this was the first time I'd ever driven a car with them and within 2 days both had nearly caused accidents.
1. Brake Assist - On a dual carriage way there was traffic on the slip road and the car thought I was going to hit the rear most van on it as I drove past in the left lane. I wasn't but the car took away my control of the car and slammed on the brakes to an emergency stop without giving me any warning before it did it, which not only scared the living crap out of me, but also removed an element of driver control as I now had to control a "squirming under brakes" car without having the mental headstart that you get when YOU are the one jumping on the brakes. Luckily there was nothing close enough behind me to be forced to stop or crash into me.
2. Lane Assist - On a country road I went to overtake a cyclist but, as there was no traffic, I didn't use my indicator. As I started to move over the white line to pass the cyclist the car once more took away my control of the car and physically turned the steering wheel back into my lane and towards the cyclist, again without any warning (no lights, bongs etc) which again led to what I felt was a dangerous situation.
I understand that these things can be a huge safety bonus, I do, but anything that takes away my direct control of the car "without warning" I think is dangerous. Now, to be fair, as it was a hire car I have no idea if there "should" have been some warning bongs/lights but they were inhibited by a previous driver or if the 3008 even comes with lights/bongs but I am absolutely 100% certain that in both occasions there was zero warning from the car before if took away my control.
2018 Caddy with brake assist - I had a few near misses with that, I fondly remember a transit with what looked like four locked up wheels (no abs?) getting bigger and bigger in my rear view mirror after the VW had decided to perform an emergency stop. An improvement in safety? Heck no. Lethal.
Current Honda does the tug thing over 40mph - cyclists are it’s nemesis as it doesn’t see them, it only uses the white lines, and it really really wants all cyclists on faster roads stone cold dead as far as I can tell. Must be an EU policy to get them to use trains or something.
You can sometimes prevent murder by using the indicator before moving out, but it’s not a hard and fast rule.
Same for exiting a motorway - don’t indicate and it’ll disagree with you quite strongly with R2D2 beeps and the wheel fighting back, leading to wobbles as it first pulls you back and you then try and apply more force to override it.
It’s designed to force you to indicate well in advance of every lane change manoeuvre until that one time where you need to move quickly around a danger eg cyclist or pedestrian on a blind bend on a country road and your car just heaves you straight back into the kerb…
Any car that will constantly beep or flash unnecessary warnings at you because it doesn’t have a Scooby what the speed limit is is a distraction and danger. I’m a grown up. It says so on my licence. Let me make the decisions.
Debaser said:
These systems are awful. Having them turn on every time you start the car is a terrible idea.
Manufacturers need to think about making them as easy as possible to turn off (within the badly thought out regulations).
The lane assist feature being on by default is I believe mandated by NCAP so manufacturers get a higher rating for their cars with this automatically enabled.Manufacturers need to think about making them as easy as possible to turn off (within the badly thought out regulations).
Personally I think NCAP has outlived its usefulness and should be canned, the above is an example of why.
I'm also struggling (fighting) with LKA. In my previous two EV's, iPace and Fiat e500, it was irritating at worst. The i4 I now have is actively trying to end me. And it's willing to put up a proper battle to get what it wants too! It applies serious counter torque to the steering wheel to force me into oncoming traffic if I'm on a narrow road and pulled hard to one side because of.. oncoming traffic... I'm then left trying to steer a car on the very edge of the road whilst the car is tugging at the wheel and trying to deny my will to survive.
I do know how to disable it but like any determined killer, it keeps coming back when I'm least suspecting it.
How have we ended up in a situation where such a system is mandated AND also mandated to be on by default
If something is proving dangerous it should be possible to deactivate it permanently, it certainly shouldn't silently default to being to enabled the next time you drive - that has to be about the most likely way of catching a driver out...
I'm genuinely not a techno-phobe, I love modern car tech and especially driver aids, it's very clever stuff. But this one system feels like it's been forced into daily use by legislation without any solution or thought for those of us (who live in rural areas with small roads..) that are far more likely to end up fighting against the system than have it save our lives.
I do know how to disable it but like any determined killer, it keeps coming back when I'm least suspecting it.
How have we ended up in a situation where such a system is mandated AND also mandated to be on by default
If something is proving dangerous it should be possible to deactivate it permanently, it certainly shouldn't silently default to being to enabled the next time you drive - that has to be about the most likely way of catching a driver out...I'm genuinely not a techno-phobe, I love modern car tech and especially driver aids, it's very clever stuff. But this one system feels like it's been forced into daily use by legislation without any solution or thought for those of us (who live in rural areas with small roads..) that are far more likely to end up fighting against the system than have it save our lives.
Yes, I'm hearing reports of 2024 Toyotas that have a flawed speed limit assist system now - so bad that people are selling their brand new cars because it defaults to on and audible every start 
A combination of wrong speeds limits being detected and the speedometer being out by 5-10%, so you are constantly distracted by warning bongs even when you are not actually speeding.
The legislation has brought in regulations where the technology can't operate yet - so is actually more dangerous with the distractions.
A combination of wrong speeds limits being detected and the speedometer being out by 5-10%, so you are constantly distracted by warning bongs even when you are not actually speeding.
The legislation has brought in regulations where the technology can't operate yet - so is actually more dangerous with the distractions.
Worth checking on the weasel words likely to be found in the handbook.
Reading the manual for my last new truck re AEBS (which couldn't be switched off anyway) said weasel wording made it clear that whatever happened the ultimate responsibility lay with the driver.
I have no issue with that other than that in chicane type obstructions the vehicle was likely to chuck the anchors out for no reason, which could easily cause an accident in various ways.
Betcha there's some clever wording in your manual putting the blame for whatever happens on the driver.
Reading the manual for my last new truck re AEBS (which couldn't be switched off anyway) said weasel wording made it clear that whatever happened the ultimate responsibility lay with the driver.
I have no issue with that other than that in chicane type obstructions the vehicle was likely to chuck the anchors out for no reason, which could easily cause an accident in various ways.
Betcha there's some clever wording in your manual putting the blame for whatever happens on the driver.
The only experience I've had was in my Girlfriend's Brother's car when he went to overtake someone and it slammed on the brakes hard - f
king lethal.
I do wonder if an insurer could plug in an ODB reader to ascertain if one of these systems had been turned off prior to a crash? I can see them weasling out of a claim/voiding your policy.....
king lethal.I do wonder if an insurer could plug in an ODB reader to ascertain if one of these systems had been turned off prior to a crash? I can see them weasling out of a claim/voiding your policy.....
Muddle238 said:
Do these speed limit systems work by using a camera to "read" signs? If so, what's stopping you putting a bit of black tape over the camera?
Same for lane assist, does it use a camera to "read" the lines?
The system will throw up errors ie more warnings and more bongs.Same for lane assist, does it use a camera to "read" the lines?
All that said, these systems aren’t _that_ bad. Use them as an aid rather than a full-on replacement for, I dunno, driving properly and paying attention, and they’re barely noticeable.
Jimbo. said:
The system will throw up errors ie more warnings and more bongs.
All that said, these systems aren’t _that_ bad. Use them as an aid rather than a full-on replacement for, I dunno, driving properly and paying attention, and they’re barely noticeable.
In the case ok LKA that's plainly not true!All that said, these systems aren’t _that_ bad. Use them as an aid rather than a full-on replacement for, I dunno, driving properly and paying attention, and they’re barely noticeable.
Am I not driving carefully and sensibly when I pull over to the edge of a narrow road when a truck is coming the other way? The LKA is determined to steer me away from the verge and back towards the truck!
That's not the system being an 'aid' is it? And I would go so far as to say that attempting to murder is 'that bad'
TheDeuce said:
In the case ok LKA that's plainly not true!
Am I not driving carefully and sensibly when I pull over to the edge of a narrow road when a truck is coming the other way? The LKA is determined to steer me away from the verge and back towards the truck!
That's not the system being an 'aid' is it? And I would go so far as to say that attempting to murder is 'that bad'
Won't life be interesting when said oncoming truck has the same system fitted.Am I not driving carefully and sensibly when I pull over to the edge of a narrow road when a truck is coming the other way? The LKA is determined to steer me away from the verge and back towards the truck!
That's not the system being an 'aid' is it? And I would go so far as to say that attempting to murder is 'that bad'
Smint said:
TheDeuce said:
In the case ok LKA that's plainly not true!
Am I not driving carefully and sensibly when I pull over to the edge of a narrow road when a truck is coming the other way? The LKA is determined to steer me away from the verge and back towards the truck!
That's not the system being an 'aid' is it? And I would go so far as to say that attempting to murder is 'that bad'
Won't life be interesting when said oncoming truck has the same system fitted.Am I not driving carefully and sensibly when I pull over to the edge of a narrow road when a truck is coming the other way? The LKA is determined to steer me away from the verge and back towards the truck!
That's not the system being an 'aid' is it? And I would go so far as to say that attempting to murder is 'that bad'
FMOB said:
Debaser said:
These systems are awful. Having them turn on every time you start the car is a terrible idea.
Manufacturers need to think about making them as easy as possible to turn off (within the badly thought out regulations).
The lane assist feature being on by default is I believe mandated by NCAP so manufacturers get a higher rating for their cars with this automatically enabled.Manufacturers need to think about making them as easy as possible to turn off (within the badly thought out regulations).
Personally I think NCAP has outlived its usefulness and should be canned, the above is an example of why.
PH News item here.
C n C said:
FMOB said:
Debaser said:
These systems are awful. Having them turn on every time you start the car is a terrible idea.
Manufacturers need to think about making them as easy as possible to turn off (within the badly thought out regulations).
The lane assist feature being on by default is I believe mandated by NCAP so manufacturers get a higher rating for their cars with this automatically enabled.Manufacturers need to think about making them as easy as possible to turn off (within the badly thought out regulations).
Personally I think NCAP has outlived its usefulness and should be canned, the above is an example of why.
PH News item here.
But the problem remains because it's very easy to forget to turn it off when you start a new trip, you may have only stopped briefly.. And there is no clue or reminder that LKA is activated again, planning to grab the wheel and steer you towards oncoming traffic without notice.
How about... Just permanently off?! Or off on certain roads, my car 'learns' certain settings for certain roads, but again, LKA isn't one of them - it always defaults to 'on'.
TheDeuce said:
Jimbo. said:
The system will throw up errors ie more warnings and more bongs.
All that said, these systems aren’t _that_ bad. Use them as an aid rather than a full-on replacement for, I dunno, driving properly and paying attention, and they’re barely noticeable.
In the case ok LKA that's plainly not true!All that said, these systems aren’t _that_ bad. Use them as an aid rather than a full-on replacement for, I dunno, driving properly and paying attention, and they’re barely noticeable.
Am I not driving carefully and sensibly when I pull over to the edge of a narrow road when a truck is coming the other way? The LKA is determined to steer me away from the verge and back towards the truck!
That's not the system being an 'aid' is it? And I would go so far as to say that attempting to murder is 'that bad'
Thankfully the systems I've had on the current Toyota Corolla don't do this and are left on. Neither do VW on either their normal or id cars I've driven, they don't try to end you every trip and work pretty well.
It's just the speed limit 'assist' that doesn't work.
Muddle238 said:
Do these speed limit systems work by using a camera to "read" signs? If so, what's stopping you putting a bit of black tape over the camera?
Same for lane assist, does it use a camera to "read" the lines?
Yes, they are camera based.Same for lane assist, does it use a camera to "read" the lines?
Unfortunately many of them use one camera for many different systems, the lane keep assist on my current Toyota Corolla works fine and can be left on.
It's just the speed limit assist that doesn't work - either bonging at you because it thinks the motorway should be 20mph or getting other limits wrong.
Even when it actually gets the limit right, it bongs at you for driving slower than the speed limit on the motorway - true gps speed is 74mph indicated at real 70mph.
TheDeuce said:
Making it a one button thing is indeed helpful. BMW's can do this already with pretty much any function, just add it to a favourite button - job done.
But the problem remains because it's very easy to forget to turn it off when you start a new trip, you may have only stopped briefly.. And there is no clue or reminder that LKA is activated again, planning to grab the wheel and steer you towards oncoming traffic without notice.
How about... Just permanently off?! Or off on certain roads, my car 'learns' certain settings for certain roads, but again, LKA isn't one of them - it always defaults to 'on'.
I've got a controllable button in the Merc and I've set it to control Stop Start. It's just habit now. Turn on engine, turn off Stop Start. Whilst it does have LKA it is permanently switch to off. I always mean to ask the garage to turn off the auto Stop Start but forget. But the problem remains because it's very easy to forget to turn it off when you start a new trip, you may have only stopped briefly.. And there is no clue or reminder that LKA is activated again, planning to grab the wheel and steer you towards oncoming traffic without notice.
How about... Just permanently off?! Or off on certain roads, my car 'learns' certain settings for certain roads, but again, LKA isn't one of them - it always defaults to 'on'.
TheDeuce said:
Making it a one button thing is indeed helpful. BMW's can do this already with pretty much any function, just add it to a favourite button - job done.
But the problem remains because it's very easy to forget to turn it off when you start a new trip, you may have only stopped briefly.. And there is no clue or reminder that LKA is activated again, planning to grab the wheel and steer you towards oncoming traffic without notice.
How about... Just permanently off?! Or off on certain roads, my car 'learns' certain settings for certain roads, but again, LKA isn't one of them - it always defaults to 'on'.
I completely agree - it would be much better if these things could be disabled permanently. But the problem remains because it's very easy to forget to turn it off when you start a new trip, you may have only stopped briefly.. And there is no clue or reminder that LKA is activated again, planning to grab the wheel and steer you towards oncoming traffic without notice.
How about... Just permanently off?! Or off on certain roads, my car 'learns' certain settings for certain roads, but again, LKA isn't one of them - it always defaults to 'on'.
I also know what you mean about the one button switching on again. I personally dislike auto stop-start, and on our Skoda there is a button to disable it. When setting out on a journey, I automatically hit the button, but have lost count of the times that I've forgotten to disable it again after stopping mid journey for fuel or whatever.
Fortunately, as it's an older car, the lane assist stuff can be (and is) permanently disabled through the menu system.
The whole thing with all these new driver aids/safety systems, is that some may find them helpful, but the problem comes with forcing these things on drivers, especially when some of the systems themselves have faults, or are unable to deal with certain situations with which a competent driver would have no problem.
TheDeuce said:
I'm also struggling (fighting) with LKA. In my previous two EV's, iPace and Fiat e500, it was irritating at worst. The i4 I now have is actively trying to end me. And it's willing to put up a proper battle to get what it wants too! It applies serious counter torque to the steering wheel to force me into oncoming traffic if I'm on a narrow road and pulled hard to one side because of.. oncoming traffic... I'm then left trying to steer a car on the very edge of the road whilst the car is tugging at the wheel and trying to deny my will to survive.
I do know how to disable it but like any determined killer, it keeps coming back when I'm least suspecting it.
How have we ended up in a situation where such a system is mandated AND also mandated to be on by default If something is proving dangerous it should be possible to deactivate it permanently, it certainly shouldn't silently default to being to enabled the next time you drive - that has to be about the most likely way of catching a driver out...
I'm genuinely not a techno-phobe, I love modern car tech and especially driver aids, it's very clever stuff. But this one system feels like it's been forced into daily use by legislation without any solution or thought for those of us (who live in rural areas with small roads..) that are far more likely to end up fighting against the system than have it save our lives.
When one of these cars kills a cyclist or causes a head on collision maybe someone in the EU will see sense. Don’t hold your breathe though.I do know how to disable it but like any determined killer, it keeps coming back when I'm least suspecting it.
How have we ended up in a situation where such a system is mandated AND also mandated to be on by default
If something is proving dangerous it should be possible to deactivate it permanently, it certainly shouldn't silently default to being to enabled the next time you drive - that has to be about the most likely way of catching a driver out...I'm genuinely not a techno-phobe, I love modern car tech and especially driver aids, it's very clever stuff. But this one system feels like it's been forced into daily use by legislation without any solution or thought for those of us (who live in rural areas with small roads..) that are far more likely to end up fighting against the system than have it save our lives.
Honda E - I had a six foot fridge freezer sticking out the back when ours recently decided I’m a waste of the planet’s resources. To be fair the weight distribution was maybe a bit tail heavy but I got quite close to a proper tank slapper exiting a motorway. Must remember to be a good citizen and indicate whether there’s anybody there to see it or not
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