Car pricing - things going mental or is it just me?
Discussion
Cars now are not really comparable to cars 10 years ago let alone 20 or 30. They are far safer, faster but more economical, more technologically advanced, stringent emissions standards... the cost of building them will have gone up massively, and then there is the cost of components and materials which will have gone up. And that's before you consider BEVs, PHEVs etc.
And Sterling has fallen in value dramatically against other currencies (which will be partly reflected in the cost of raw materials for locally built cars, but any imported components or finished goods will have gone up by at least the rate of sterling depreciation over most periods just to stand still in real terms. From its peak in 2007, sterling has depreciated by nearly 40% vs USD, and 20% vs the Euro over the same period.
And Sterling has fallen in value dramatically against other currencies (which will be partly reflected in the cost of raw materials for locally built cars, but any imported components or finished goods will have gone up by at least the rate of sterling depreciation over most periods just to stand still in real terms. From its peak in 2007, sterling has depreciated by nearly 40% vs USD, and 20% vs the Euro over the same period.
-Lummox- said:
I get the point (kind of) but suggesting 80s cars on average had a service life of 60k miles seems a bit low?
I remember my father buying an 86 D reg Cavalier in 1987. He had it for what felt like forever but it actually went off to the scrapman in 1994 having had the rust painted over at least once, which was a decent innings for an 80s car. Not sure what mileage it was at but I'd be surprised if it was much over 100k. Totally par for the course, and for the latter half of it's life I'm sure it drove like a bag of s
t too.Look at it per year of life of per mile of life and I'm sure modern cars are a vastly cheaper ownership proposition than the old crap people get misty eyed over.
Robertb said:
Cars now are not really comparable to cars 10 years ago let alone 20 or 30. They are far safer, faster but more economical, more technologically advanced, stringent emissions standards... the cost of building them will have gone up massively, and then there is the cost of components and materials which will have gone up. And that's before you consider BEVs, PHEVs etc.
And Sterling has fallen in value dramatically against other currencies (which will be partly reflected in the cost of raw materials for locally built cars, but any imported components or finished goods will have gone up by at least the rate of sterling depreciation over most periods just to stand still in real terms. From its peak in 2007, sterling has depreciated by nearly 40% vs USD, and 20% vs the Euro over the same period.
That may be the case but it’s cheaper to buy a car here than say France, Ireland or the Netherlands by thousands. And Sterling has fallen in value dramatically against other currencies (which will be partly reflected in the cost of raw materials for locally built cars, but any imported components or finished goods will have gone up by at least the rate of sterling depreciation over most periods just to stand still in real terms. From its peak in 2007, sterling has depreciated by nearly 40% vs USD, and 20% vs the Euro over the same period.
ecsrobin said:
Robertb said:
Cars now are not really comparable to cars 10 years ago let alone 20 or 30. They are far safer, faster but more economical, more technologically advanced, stringent emissions standards... the cost of building them will have gone up massively, and then there is the cost of components and materials which will have gone up. And that's before you consider BEVs, PHEVs etc.
And Sterling has fallen in value dramatically against other currencies (which will be partly reflected in the cost of raw materials for locally built cars, but any imported components or finished goods will have gone up by at least the rate of sterling depreciation over most periods just to stand still in real terms. From its peak in 2007, sterling has depreciated by nearly 40% vs USD, and 20% vs the Euro over the same period.
That may be the case but it’s cheaper to buy a car here than say France, Ireland or the Netherlands by thousands. And Sterling has fallen in value dramatically against other currencies (which will be partly reflected in the cost of raw materials for locally built cars, but any imported components or finished goods will have gone up by at least the rate of sterling depreciation over most periods just to stand still in real terms. From its peak in 2007, sterling has depreciated by nearly 40% vs USD, and 20% vs the Euro over the same period.
Terminator X said:
Imho the car industry is in an extremely precarious position right now; what seems to be massive prices unaffordable to the masses then forced to build EV when the demand (in the UK) is not there. Noise Regs etc turning once great cars into almost silent machines. On it goes.
Me, I will stick with older 2nd cars from now on having once been a serial car changer.
TX.
I don’t think it’s noise regs, that’s definitely more of a niche performance enthusiast perspective. I think it’s that cars have more technology - some driven by customers and some driven by legislation and this stuff is expensive. Me, I will stick with older 2nd cars from now on having once been a serial car changer.
TX.
Robertb said:
Only a sample of one, but a new Alfa Tonale 1.5 MHEV 160 Veloce is 54300 euros (£46500) at a dealer in Lyon, or £43220 at a dealer in Swindon. Not wildly different, unless there are some extra taxes lobbed on.
Ah sorry should have mentioned its emissions based so a MHEV will be low €2,000. Anything performance the tax can be more than the car. 
No, not just you. Of course the Ukraine war caused supply problems, compounded by Covid. However, then along came the Covid excuses industry which persisted for far too long, so I suspect that some car makers are still adding a ‘ greed tax’. Yes, list prices are disguised by PCP but even so,a screen price will be displayed. I wonder, too, if ( unlike many Americans) we are extremely demanding in the uk about the finish of our cars, especially the interiors; young buyers also want them to be a kind of extension to an I phone. All adding cost.
ecsrobin said:
Robertb said:
Only a sample of one, but a new Alfa Tonale 1.5 MHEV 160 Veloce is 54300 euros (£46500) at a dealer in Lyon, or £43220 at a dealer in Swindon. Not wildly different, unless there are some extra taxes lobbed on.
Ah sorry should have mentioned its emissions based so a MHEV will be low €2,000. Anything performance the tax can be more than the car. I guess we Brits should be grateful for small mercies!
brillomaster said:
no one actually buys new cars outright, so its almost immaterial what the list price is - for the first 5 or so years of a cars life, it'll be paid for with monthly payments.
once it hits the actual secondhand market where someone might actually buy it with cold hard cash, it'll depreciate to what its actually worth when you're not in a finance deal.
The lease companies do, then they lease them out for a profit.once it hits the actual secondhand market where someone might actually buy it with cold hard cash, it'll depreciate to what its actually worth when you're not in a finance deal.
brillomaster said:
no one actually buys new cars outright, so its almost immaterial what the list price is - for the first 5 or so years of a cars life, it'll be paid for with monthly payments.
once it hits the actual secondhand market where someone might actually buy it with cold hard cash, it'll depreciate to what its actually worth when you're not in a finance deal.
what utter nonsenseonce it hits the actual secondhand market where someone might actually buy it with cold hard cash, it'll depreciate to what its actually worth when you're not in a finance deal.
Agreed. I personally know someone who has had more than 1 car brand new (Alfa Brera, Insignia VXR [loads of problems that one] BMW 335d and some others I forget) from a dealer for cash. But not in the last 2 years, price are now ridiculous so he bought his most recent car 9 months old. I've mentioned it's not the best way, but he can afford it.
GeniusOfLove said:
I remember my father buying an 86 D reg Cavalier in 1987. He had it for what felt like forever but it actually went off to the scrapman in 1994 having had the rust painted over at least once, which was a decent innings for an 80s car. Not sure what mileage it was at but I'd be surprised if it was much over 100k. Totally par for the course, and for the latter half of it's life I'm sure it drove like a bag of st too.
Look at it per year of life of per mile of life and I'm sure modern cars are a vastly cheaper ownership proposition than the old crap people get misty eyed over.
I bought an ‘87 Cavalier 1.6GL as an impoverished student in 1994 for, I think, £400. It had just under 100k miles on it. I thrashed the bejesus out of it for 4 years doing lots of miles all over the country on a mix of work and climbing trips, loads of motorway miles at pretty much as fast as it’d go (no speed cameras to speak of in them days). It finally threw a rod at 185k miles, but was certainly fine to drive and was subject to huge abuse by an idiot younger me. To suggest ‘80s cars only did 60k is nonsense. I was there! t too.Look at it per year of life of per mile of life and I'm sure modern cars are a vastly cheaper ownership proposition than the old crap people get misty eyed over.
I actually think much of the “modern classic” interesting semi analog car market represents, for car fans anyway, somewhat of a bargain right now..... when you compare it to the inflation we’ve seen the last couple of years.
A lot of this stuff appreciated in value quite considerably as we know over the covid money tree period, for well understood reasons.
A lot of it is now at or lower than it was a couple of years ago, even though they are desirable. I think we have interest rates, and lack of fun money available to a lot of people that was there previously, to blame for that.
However, with inflation as it has been for 2/3 years, and considering the price of these new cars being spoken about on the thread..... surely these cars are in real terms absolutely bargains now?
I’m talking E46/E90 M3s, 996s and 997s, Early R8s, 360 Modenas, V8 Vantages/DB9s, etc etc.
2020’s £30k is today’s £40k..... yet some
Of those £30k cars, even those that were considered to be at the bottom of their depreciation and on their way “up” organically...... are increasingly less in actual £pounds..... not adjusted for inflation!
A lot of this stuff appreciated in value quite considerably as we know over the covid money tree period, for well understood reasons.
A lot of it is now at or lower than it was a couple of years ago, even though they are desirable. I think we have interest rates, and lack of fun money available to a lot of people that was there previously, to blame for that.
However, with inflation as it has been for 2/3 years, and considering the price of these new cars being spoken about on the thread..... surely these cars are in real terms absolutely bargains now?
I’m talking E46/E90 M3s, 996s and 997s, Early R8s, 360 Modenas, V8 Vantages/DB9s, etc etc.
2020’s £30k is today’s £40k..... yet some
Of those £30k cars, even those that were considered to be at the bottom of their depreciation and on their way “up” organically...... are increasingly less in actual £pounds..... not adjusted for inflation!
whp1983 said:
Interest rates are high
UK wages have stagnated (with higher taxes)
Inflation has shifted on
And as such cars seem expensive to us…. I suspect in the US where wages are higher it doesn’t feel as bad
interest rates are historically quite low, wage inflation is rampant, inflation is not all that high, though it has been, but is has been everywhere. What has happened is that people are being induced to rent cars they can’t afford by weekly and monthly terms. Demand goes up, prices follow. The reason they feel cheaper in the USA is because they are cheaper. Generally they pay in USD what we pay in GBP, even for European cars. We get skanked because we will pay it.UK wages have stagnated (with higher taxes)
Inflation has shifted on
And as such cars seem expensive to us…. I suspect in the US where wages are higher it doesn’t feel as bad
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