RE: Aston boss doubles down on PHEVs amid EV slowdown
Discussion
charltjr said:
MOOSECORTINA said:
Sure sign that the EV bubble has burst. Good to know that normal cars will be available. Well done Aston Martin, more manufacturers to follow.
This is a tiny, niche manufacturer selling Mercedes power trains in a pretty frock as toys to the wealthy. No surprise that demographic is highly conservative and that Aston don’t have the money to push ahead until they have to. Stroll's story is basically PR spin to win brownie points. Not a bad thing at all but let's not fall into the trap of this being the real reason.
We'll be seeing plenty of manufacturers spinning up such stories while still carrying on precisely as planned, which is to keep the EV objectives of each core market they sell product to.
We can expect more guff about magical unicorn juices also for as long as that wins positive traction in the press with key demographics. I suspect the whole GH crap has pretty much died a death now and it's hard to imagine there are intelligent people with £200k to spend who still believe that one.
It'll be interesting to see what Porsche PR spins out over the coming years as they were genuinely planning to go pure EV ahead of local legislations as they thought that was going to win them big brownie points. Plus, they were really pushing the unicorn juice guff to punters and many seemed to actually believe it would be being sold to them.
Back to Aston, they will still be aiming to sell enough EVs to meet things like the ZEV Mandate. I doubt they can pass the fines on to the consumer all that easily?
DonkeyApple said:
And battery tech hasn't moved forward quickly enough yet, nor infrastructure for EV to work well for luxury GTs. Sane people don't spend £200k to have to then loiter at Watford Gap services.
Stroll's story is basically PR spin to win brownie points. Not a bad thing at all but let's not fall into the trap of this being the real reason.
We'll be seeing plenty of manufacturers spinning up such stories while still carrying on precisely as planned, which is to keep the EV objectives of each core market they sell product to.
We can expect more guff about magical unicorn juices also for as long as that wins positive traction in the press with key demographics. I suspect the whole GH crap has pretty much died a death now and it's hard to imagine there are intelligent people with £200k to spend who still believe that one.
It'll be interesting to see what Porsche PR spins out over the coming years as they were genuinely planning to go pure EV ahead of local legislations as they thought that was going to win them big brownie points. Plus, they were really pushing the unicorn juice guff to punters and many seemed to actually believe it would be being sold to them.
Back to Aston, they will still be aiming to sell enough EVs to meet things like the ZEV Mandate. I doubt they can pass the fines on to the consumer all that easily?
So Aston Martin have a get out of jail here because they don’t need to meet ZEV so long as they sell under 2500 cars in the UK which is why they can do this. Ferrari will probably be in the same boat. Lamborghini and Porsche are pooled with VW and have too much volume anyway so they can’t use this route.Stroll's story is basically PR spin to win brownie points. Not a bad thing at all but let's not fall into the trap of this being the real reason.
We'll be seeing plenty of manufacturers spinning up such stories while still carrying on precisely as planned, which is to keep the EV objectives of each core market they sell product to.
We can expect more guff about magical unicorn juices also for as long as that wins positive traction in the press with key demographics. I suspect the whole GH crap has pretty much died a death now and it's hard to imagine there are intelligent people with £200k to spend who still believe that one.
It'll be interesting to see what Porsche PR spins out over the coming years as they were genuinely planning to go pure EV ahead of local legislations as they thought that was going to win them big brownie points. Plus, they were really pushing the unicorn juice guff to punters and many seemed to actually believe it would be being sold to them.
Back to Aston, they will still be aiming to sell enough EVs to meet things like the ZEV Mandate. I doubt they can pass the fines on to the consumer all that easily?
It’s a bit of a gift to Stroll tbh but it was granted on the basis that they couldn’t afford to electrify as fast…. He needs to be a bit careful with statements about investing in hybrid for that reason. Might blow up in his face
plfrench said:
Does not compute. If they genuinely have four fully developed and signed off EVs waiting to go, the last thing they would want to do is not release them. That amount of depreciating development just doesn’t make financial sense and smacks to me of a desperate spin PR to try and come across as bad old regulators, good AM who are on the customer’s side.
Competition like Maserati and Porsche stealing a march in the new era whilst Aston Martin hide behind this convenient excuse - sounds more realistic.
It's handy this EV 'backlash'. Aston are overstretched development-wise, reliant on shaky electric brand Lucid for EV tech, probably haven't nailed down a battery supplier, waiting to see if battery prices come down, still developing a platform etc etc. I'm sure their sports car customers aren't ready for EV, but I bet their SUV customers are. It's a tricky business moving to EV so holding off a year and being able to point to an EV 'slowdown' for the reason is handy. Hell, I would have done the same. Better than saying we're not ready.Competition like Maserati and Porsche stealing a march in the new era whilst Aston Martin hide behind this convenient excuse - sounds more realistic.
Wab1974uk said:
Not many want and EV.
Not many can afford an EV.
Yet being forced into them my politicians living in their own little bubble.
Petrol car numbers and petrol consumption in the UK won't decline at all before 2035.Not many can afford an EV.
Yet being forced into them my politicians living in their own little bubble.
You've then got 15 more years at least to buy one of those.
Diesel on the other hand...
If you were born in 1974, you won't ever have to buy an EV.
Panic over?
D4rez said:
Macboy said:
"We have barely got the money to keep the business running and service it's £1billion debt so we haven't got the money to develop EVs...oh and we hate politicians and Greens and hate EVs and it's not what anyone wants blah blah"
True, they won’t make 2035 either way. I think they’ll be bought by Geely and turned into an electric sub brand like lotus or cease to exist. Their biggest issue is their buyers are a dying breedhttps://europe.autonews.com/article/20171121/ANE/1...
malaccamax said:
plfrench said:
Does not compute. If they genuinely have four fully developed and signed off EVs waiting to go, the last thing they would want to do is not release them. That amount of depreciating development just doesn’t make financial sense and smacks to me of a desperate spin PR to try and come across as bad old regulators, good AM who are on the customer’s side.
Competition like Maserati and Porsche stealing a march in the new era whilst Aston Martin hide behind this convenient excuse - sounds more realistic.
It's handy this EV 'backlash'. Aston are overstretched development-wise, reliant on shaky electric brand Lucid for EV tech, probably haven't nailed down a battery supplier, waiting to see if battery prices come down, still developing a platform etc etc. I'm sure their sports car customers aren't ready for EV, but I bet their SUV customers are. It's a tricky business moving to EV so holding off a year and being able to point to an EV 'slowdown' for the reason is handy. Hell, I would have done the same. Better than saying we're not ready.Competition like Maserati and Porsche stealing a march in the new era whilst Aston Martin hide behind this convenient excuse - sounds more realistic.
It is a tough one for the high end manufacturers, ok they still have their brand, styling, luxury interiors etc, but a big big part of their USP has gone.
A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
J4CKO said:
MOOSECORTINA said:
Sure sign that the EV bubble has burst. Good to know that normal cars will be available. Well done Aston Martin, more manufacturers to follow.
Yeah, because everyone will now just revert to manufacturing and driving ICE not further develop EV's and their infrastructure to reduce the downsides of range, charging and cost as that threefold increase in efficiency is just not worth having ? Because middle aged and older blokes like what they can afford and are familiar with and have a tantrum when EVs are mentioned ?The bubble hasnt burst, its still getting going, there is absolutely no way in 25 years anyone will be buying a new ICE car in the UK, this is a transitional period, with ups and downs, but one way or another, electric motors will be powering the bulk of transport in the future.
Not sure why its so hard to grasp, I like ICE cars and have no immediate plans for an EV, I dont rule it in or out but this is happening and its not going away, very naive to think that one article on PH about 200k plus luxury cars sounds the death knell for the EV.
The article is about Aston Martin and there has been discussions in previous threads on PH about the ban of internal combustion engine cars. Some posters seemingly can't wait for internal combustion engines to go and their gotcha boners are dribbling pre-cum with the thought that some stranger on the internet is going to be beaten into submission by the government.
But the wealthy aren't your typical far-right gun totin' cousin rootin' ICE car defender like young MOOSECORTINA. They know what's incoming and they'll self-regulate rather than have the government do it for them. If that means throwing the mob a bone by having an electric Aston and not have to, say, live with a ban on air flghts of less than three hours in duration or have their winter residence thermostat set to 15 degrees celsius and their driveways heating turned off then so be it.
So I do see Stroll pushing back a bit of a significant thing. That's not to say that it'll mean manufacturers will write off all that R&D they've done so far. Commuter cars are better as EV - everyone should be commuting in Mitsubishi eK X's and Honda E's and those cars should be cheaper. For all other car use-cases - have at it.
Very angry about his son, no need to take it out on EV's. The hype (not) of EV's was of course driven by government tax breaks to kick start the market.
Aston sold 6,400 cars last year not 3 million. Of course it will keep pushing petrol until it can't. This does not undermine the argument for EV's.
Aston sold 6,400 cars last year not 3 million. Of course it will keep pushing petrol until it can't. This does not undermine the argument for EV's.
MOOSECORTINA said:
Sure sign that the EV bubble has burst. Good to know that normal cars will be available. Well done Aston Martin, more manufacturers to follow.
hyper niche manufacture with angry boss says precisely nothing about the direction of travel for EV's. Ask a boss whose company makes millions of cars because they are the ones driving the market. When are you picking up your new Aston?
Robigus said:
My hypothesis is that politicians were advised incorrectly, that battery technology (solid state) and efficiency improvements would be resolved by 2030. Hence the bravado of combustion bans.
Aston’s plans are an example of market realignment.
The ban’s coming, but at the moment it looks like the cure for type 1 diabetes: always 5 years away.
Wrong hypothesis, basing anything on the angry boss of a company selling 6,000 hugely expensive cars to conservative & self centred owners.m Then thinking this crumb of hope somehow proves that the political motivation to kick start innovation was misplaced. Aston’s plans are an example of market realignment.
The ban’s coming, but at the moment it looks like the cure for type 1 diabetes: always 5 years away.
Like a cure for TB, it took time, arrived & since improved. Some people will always try and buck the trend thus hindering its eradication.
J4CKO said:
It is a tough one for the high end manufacturers, ok they still have their brand, styling, luxury interiors etc, but a big big part of their USP has gone.
A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
They have the brand and that's a LOT. Also Aston doesn't need to really worry about weight of batteries. They've never been known for lightness. They have great design. A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
There's also a lot of craftsmanship in there that's not just about the engine and gearbox (which have never been an AM core competance anyway, mostly outsourced).
It's true they used engines as a point of differentation because no carmakers wanted V8s and V12s in family hatchbacks or SUVs, but you'd hope AM could make make a car with EV drivetrain and for it to be still very much an Aston
rodericb said:
So I do see Stroll pushing back a bit of a significant thing. That's not to say that it'll mean manufacturers will write off all that R&D they've done so far. Commuter cars are better as EV - everyone should be commuting in Mitsubishi eK X's and Honda E's and those cars should be cheaper. For all other car use-cases - have at it.
Apologies for the selective quote.I 100% agree: why can't people apply a bit of real world pragmatism on this issue?
Electric car for commuting, ICE for longer journeys.
What is the issue with this? As 'most' people will do short ish journeys on daily basis and so an EV will fit their needs. If people want/need an ICE vehicle for other purposes, then what is the issue? It would also help ease people into the EV concept rather that treating like children and forcing them into cars they don't want, like or need.
(Yeah I know, binary viewpoint of the world taken by governments and extremists/activists. No debate about the practicalities of their plan. Do what you're told).
Lets hope this is the start for the rest of the automotive world.
I really can't see how electric cars in their current state can be the answer (I don't know what is!). Lack of infrastructure (I live in a terraced house with no realistic way to charge), lack of range (I travel for work, sometimes over 300 miles a day, they just wouldn't work) and are really expensive (everything is I know) for the private buyer.
I really can't see how electric cars in their current state can be the answer (I don't know what is!). Lack of infrastructure (I live in a terraced house with no realistic way to charge), lack of range (I travel for work, sometimes over 300 miles a day, they just wouldn't work) and are really expensive (everything is I know) for the private buyer.
Macboy said:
"We have barely got the money to keep the business running and service it's £1billion debt so we haven't got the money to develop EVs...oh and we hate politicians and Greens and hate EVs and it's not what anyone wants blah blah"
That's the way I read too. If AM had money falling out of its pockets and had invested in EV models and production, I feel Stroll would saying EV is the only way forward and the customer survey confirmed that they want the advantages of EV, like less noise!It's very possible AM don't know if they are coming or going while being totally reliant on Mercedes.
Regardless, I wish them a prosperous future.
EV's will work fine when they all have a minimum 400 mile range, and every motorway services has 50 chargers. I had to take a EV as a company car and due to the tight wad attitude that only stretched to a Leaf. Great within range of the home charger and nice to drive but a total PITA on any long journey. I have a 500 mile round trip next week and can't even face taking it, so am using my 17 year old diesel Toyota instead. I can live with the charging if I know I can turn up and do it, but even that isn't guaranteed. You have no idea how long you have to wait for a free charger, and the rows I saw at the chargers at Rugby services on the M6 last month were vile.
malaccamax said:
J4CKO said:
It is a tough one for the high end manufacturers, ok they still have their brand, styling, luxury interiors etc, but a big big part of their USP has gone.
A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
They have the brand and that's a LOT. Also Aston doesn't need to really worry about weight of batteries. They've never been known for lightness. They have great design. A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
There's also a lot of craftsmanship in there that's not just about the engine and gearbox (which have never been an AM core competance anyway, mostly outsourced).
It's true they used engines as a point of differentation because no carmakers wanted V8s and V12s in family hatchbacks or SUVs, but you'd hope AM could make make a car with EV drivetrain and for it to be still very much an Aston
Well done Aston, lots more to follow and already others making progress in ignoring this silly dogma
BTCC going Synthetic fuel. Goodwood this weekend, all the classic race cars on synthetic fuel.
Hell, there is even a proper engine, nicely packaged running on Hydrogen with 410bhp
Common sense and engineering will prevail.
All those silly hideous appliances that have popped up everywhere will be gone soon for anything other than central city driving , where a motorbike does a better job anyway.
BTCC going Synthetic fuel. Goodwood this weekend, all the classic race cars on synthetic fuel.
Hell, there is even a proper engine, nicely packaged running on Hydrogen with 410bhp
Common sense and engineering will prevail.
All those silly hideous appliances that have popped up everywhere will be gone soon for anything other than central city driving , where a motorbike does a better job anyway.
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