RE: Aston boss doubles down on PHEVs amid EV slowdown
Discussion
Robigus said:
My hypothesis is that politicians were advised incorrectly, that battery technology (solid state) and efficiency improvements would be resolved by 2030. Hence the bravado of combustion bans.
Aston’s plans are an example of market realignment.
The ban’s coming, but at the moment it looks like the cure for type 1 diabetes: always 5 years away.
I think that politicians were advised correctly. If CO2 emissions do not start falling soon we are all fAston’s plans are an example of market realignment.
The ban’s coming, but at the moment it looks like the cure for type 1 diabetes: always 5 years away.
ed. They were misled by the motor industry who told them that price parity could be achieved by late 2020s, but failed to say that was because they would happily stiff the buying public by egregiously increasing the cost of ICE cars to match BEV and cut anything from their range that could be considered affordable. Wab1974uk said:
DonkeyApple said:
Wab1974uk said:
Not many want and EV.
Not many can afford an EV.
Yet being forced into them my politicians living in their own little bubble.
Not strictly correct. No one is being forced. They're on the shelves and there for someone who wants one. Plus, it's a top down change not the bottom up one that some love to claim. Not many can afford an EV.
Yet being forced into them my politicians living in their own little bubble.
Not being forced is allowing the market to decide. Sure, sell EV’s, no problem, they may suit many local low mile urban users. But there should be no restrictions on manufacturers making ICE cars, and no BIK tax breaks just for EV’s. Or 80% must be EV sales by 2030 etc etc.
If EV’s are much better suited to the buying public they will choose to buy them instead of ICE, and manufacturers will naturally stop making ICE if no-one buys them. That’s fine. But to say it’s not forced is just odd. Sure, second hand ICE will be available for years (politics allowing of course), but that is missing the point about forcing EV’s on everyone who wants a new car.
Going back to Aston, surely they will find it harder than Porsche after 2030, due to the 80% nonsense, as Porsche can just sell a good percentage of ICE because of VW group totals, with all the humdrum seat/vw/audi boring stuff being 100% EV soon.
wisbech said:
J4CKO said:
It is a tough one for the high end manufacturers, ok they still have their brand, styling, luxury interiors etc, but a big big part of their USP has gone.
A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
Disagree. Displacement (V12/ V8) was always a bit of a lazy way to get power. Toyota/ Honda/ Renault etc can (and have) built better engines than Aston in the past or now - just that for them V8/V12 are a bit niche. A Chinese EV can have an Electric motor(s) that perform as well, and has pretty much identical characteristics to the one in an Aston Martin, they can produce the same power and performance and have the same "character", i.e. that of an electric motor.
Previously they had to create magnificent V8 and V12 engines, with all the engineering know how, craftsmanship and manufacturing techniques, it was involved, complex, expensive and lower tier companies couldnt do it, but that barrier has been removed, the playing field is a lot more even now. Nobody will be making a point balancing a coin on an electric motor to prove how smooth it is, they all are.
I am sure that there is research into improving electric motors and that Tesla seem to lead that, but the gains are comparatively small and I expect more easily copied in a lot of cases.
It's much more of an engineering challenge to design and build a Toyota Corolla (say) than an AM DB11, as you also have VFM constraints. Now and again the 'lower tier' companies get a bit annoyed by the fact that most people don't think so, so come up with a Toyota LFA.
Source: practical experience from when as an engineer I worked on both defense and civil projects. The MOD projects were less of a challenge, because of basically having no budget constraint - i.e. "Build the best" is easier than "Build the best at a price of X, plus operating cost must be under Y, and reliability Z"
The reason why you then don't have so many firms concentrating on building the best regardless of budget is that the market for such stuff isn't very big
Am thinking more about new players coming in and established brands from non western manufacturers, who would have more chance knocking up a 4 cyl, like MG still using warmed over er, MG ICE powertrains in the form of the K Series in the MG3 for example, which dates back almost 40 years, being introduced in 1988 and developed in the preceding years.
The challenge not being so much creating an engine, but one that meets emissions, performance, NVH and whatever other targets, that folk want to buy.
If you look at anything that isnt a Western design, the engines are derivatives, clones or copies of western stuff, or they just buy the company nowadays, or they are not much good that would have zero chance of meeting our emissions targets.
No such issue with electric motors, they are emissions free and massively more efficient by default, an EV motor in a Chinese EV can potentially be every bit as good as one in an Aston Martin, but even AM had to buy in engines from Mercedes and cant see the Chinese knocking up a twin turbo 600 bhp v8 that matches or exceeds an AMG one.
Nomme de Plum said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agreed. Leave the EVs just as shopping cars I reckon.
You can reckon what you like Lee but that is not what is happening. Aston are a niche motor manufacturer not a main player. I think you are a 50 something so in reality you could buy a new ICE in 2035 and keep it until you hand in your driving gloves.
J4CKO said:
Nomme de Plum said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agreed. Leave the EVs just as shopping cars I reckon.
You can reckon what you like Lee but that is not what is happening. Aston are a niche motor manufacturer not a main player. I think you are a 50 something so in reality you could buy a new ICE in 2035 and keep it until you hand in your driving gloves.
Nomme de Plum said:
Lotobear said:
So, this enforced transition to the brave new world of EV's seems to be going ever so well with firstly with plumetting residuals and now push back form manufacturers - I mean who'd av thunk it
You are wrong on both counts. Care to go for a Hat Trick? https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/electric-veh...
01 Jan review looking back: vehicle electrification got pushback, says General Motors, and others.
https://www.batterytechonline.com/automotive-mobil...
The only reason EVs are doing as badly as they are, rather than even worse, is the forcing from deluded politicians in their dreamworld bubble, making taxpayers subsidise white elephants all over the place.
One or two halo EVs with 1000bhp won't be used by Granny Miggins to go buy budgie seed.
ITP said:
Yes, an odd thing to say.
Not being forced is allowing the market to decide. Sure, sell EV’s, no problem, they may suit many local low mile urban users. But there should be no restrictions on manufacturers making ICE cars, and no BIK tax breaks just for EV’s. Or 80% must be EV sales by 2030 etc etc.
If EV’s are much better suited to the buying public they will choose to buy them instead of ICE, and manufacturers will naturally stop making ICE if no-one buys them. That’s fine. But to say it’s not forced is just odd. Sure, second hand ICE will be available for years (politics allowing of course), but that is missing the point about forcing EV’s on everyone who wants a new car.
Going back to Aston, surely they will find it harder than Porsche after 2030, due to the 80% nonsense, as Porsche can just sell a good percentage of ICE because of VW group totals, with all the humdrum seat/vw/audi boring stuff being 100% EV soon.
So why have are Porsche bringing to market an EV Boxter and Cayman next year? The Panamera and Cayenne will also be late 2025/2026. That only leaves the 911 as continuing as solely ICE for the time being. Not being forced is allowing the market to decide. Sure, sell EV’s, no problem, they may suit many local low mile urban users. But there should be no restrictions on manufacturers making ICE cars, and no BIK tax breaks just for EV’s. Or 80% must be EV sales by 2030 etc etc.
If EV’s are much better suited to the buying public they will choose to buy them instead of ICE, and manufacturers will naturally stop making ICE if no-one buys them. That’s fine. But to say it’s not forced is just odd. Sure, second hand ICE will be available for years (politics allowing of course), but that is missing the point about forcing EV’s on everyone who wants a new car.
Going back to Aston, surely they will find it harder than Porsche after 2030, due to the 80% nonsense, as Porsche can just sell a good percentage of ICE because of VW group totals, with all the humdrum seat/vw/audi boring stuff being 100% EV soon.
Nice to see some common sense from a manufacturer. I own both a new-ish Aston and an EV - I can't see me ever wanting to own an Aston EV. Stroll is right, for a 'special occasion' car customers want drama and noise. My EV isn't far off the acceleration of the Aston but it's no fun to drive, it's a useful appliance that is very cheap for me thanks to the tax breaks. I'll watch with interest when the first of the true supercar manufacturers breaks cover with a full EV (sports/supercar, not SUV) and whether consumers will buy it whilst ICE alternatives are available. Perhaps we'll see this with the new Boxster/Cayman soon.
Interestingly, I was at Porsche earlier dropping my car off for a service. The place is still full of Taycan's, clearly they're having a hard time shifting them even with big discounts. The mandated 20% of sales being BEV's must be really hurting manufacturers, as they're having to produce cars that there isn't demand for in the market then heavily discount them to get rid.
Interestingly, I was at Porsche earlier dropping my car off for a service. The place is still full of Taycan's, clearly they're having a hard time shifting them even with big discounts. The mandated 20% of sales being BEV's must be really hurting manufacturers, as they're having to produce cars that there isn't demand for in the market then heavily discount them to get rid.
TikTak said:
smilo996 said:
niche manufacture with angry boss says precisely nothing about the direction of travel for EV's. Ask a boss whose company makes millions of cars because they are the ones driving the market.
Pretty much this. What Aston Martin do has almost 0 impact on the general car market or what someone like Toyota or VW are going to do for most of their fleet. Aston sell a few thousand cars a year, none of them affordable or for the masses with almost all of their clientele likely owning another car already that is more "usable".
If they continue making ICE for the next 20 years as their USP, or decided to switch to EV's only tomorrow for whatever reason, the rest of the car sector wouldn't bat an eyelid let alone change their strategy.
Nomme de Plum said:
Lotobear said:
So, this enforced transition to the brave new world of EV's seems to be going ever so well with firstly with plumetting residuals and now push back form manufacturers - I mean who'd av thunk it
You are wrong on both counts. Care to go for a Hat Trick? cerb4.5lee said:
J4CKO said:
Nomme de Plum said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agreed. Leave the EVs just as shopping cars I reckon.
You can reckon what you like Lee but that is not what is happening. Aston are a niche motor manufacturer not a main player. I think you are a 50 something so in reality you could buy a new ICE in 2035 and keep it until you hand in your driving gloves.
turbobloke said:
A few of us missed the magic roundabout u-turn. Oct 2023, EV risiduals plummeting said Toyota accurately.
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/electric-veh...
01 Jan review looking back: vehicle electrification got pushback, says General Motors, and others.
https://www.batterytechonline.com/automotive-mobil...
The only reason EVs are doing as badly as they are, rather than even worse, is the forcing from deluded politicians in their dreamworld bubble, making taxpayers subsidise white elephants all over the place.
One or two halo EVs with 1000bhp won't be used by Granny Miggins to go buy budgie seed.
All cars depreciate and it's far better to provide actual evidence.https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/electric-veh...
01 Jan review looking back: vehicle electrification got pushback, says General Motors, and others.
https://www.batterytechonline.com/automotive-mobil...
The only reason EVs are doing as badly as they are, rather than even worse, is the forcing from deluded politicians in their dreamworld bubble, making taxpayers subsidise white elephants all over the place.
One or two halo EVs with 1000bhp won't be used by Granny Miggins to go buy budgie seed.
"The average car depreciation will hit hardest in the first year of ownership. Generally, the drop will be around 15-35% in the first 12 months. And that will continue to rise up to 50% or more over three years.
Year 1: 15-35% depreciation. 65-85% of the original value.
Year 3: 40-60% depreciation. 40-65% of the original value.
Year 5: 60-70% depreciation. 30-40% of the original value.
Year 8-10: 80% depreciation. 20% of the original value."
https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/car-depr...
BTW there's good discounts to be had from new ICEs 20-24% Audis Nissan and the like.
Anyway a BMW i3 2020 range from 14,000 -17,000 with a few up to £20K and also at the power end. So basically bang in that Year 3 range.
A 10 year old BMW i3 is circa £8,000 - £10,000 also not drastic depreciation at all is it.
I'm pleased to say mine has gone up a few hundred quid over the last 3 months not that I'm selling so it doesn't matter.
J4CKO said:
cerb4.5lee said:
J4CKO said:
Nomme de Plum said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agreed. Leave the EVs just as shopping cars I reckon.
You can reckon what you like Lee but that is not what is happening. Aston are a niche motor manufacturer not a main player. I think you are a 50 something so in reality you could buy a new ICE in 2035 and keep it until you hand in your driving gloves.
He can say what he likes, but when Labour gets in with a 400+ majority and hundreds of young, anti-car, pro-Green MPs for Starmer to keep onside, it won't make an ounce of difference. Not saying the Tories have been good to motorists, far from it, and they deserve to be booted out of power, but Labour will bring in a whole new world of pain for ICE & car enthusiasts.
Edited by usualdog on Thursday 11th April 13:41
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