RE: Aston boss doubles down on PHEVs amid EV slowdown
Discussion
NDNDNDND said:
I suspect an electric Macan will be right on the money. It'll be a family crossover with the right badge to justify its cost. They'll make hay.
The electric Boxster and Cayman will be interesting. Given they struggled even putting a 4-cylinder engine in them, I think electric will be a hard sell. They'll either sink without trace or be retained as a niche model for marketing purposes (look, we do still make sports cars!)
As for the 911, I suspect its electric usurper is already here - the Taycan. At best, the electric 911 will be a two-door Taycan. What else could they do? Sling 750kg of battery over the back axle? Can they even shorten the wheelbase without compromising the battery?
Surely it is no different to the Panamera vs 911 currently - they managed to sell both successfully alongside one another and a 911 isn't just a Panamera with two doors left out... if anything the EV drivetrain will give them more flexibility to differentiate further between Taycan and 911. I'd imagine the engineers are having a whale of a time being released from the usual ICE drivetrain constraints.The electric Boxster and Cayman will be interesting. Given they struggled even putting a 4-cylinder engine in them, I think electric will be a hard sell. They'll either sink without trace or be retained as a niche model for marketing purposes (look, we do still make sports cars!)
As for the 911, I suspect its electric usurper is already here - the Taycan. At best, the electric 911 will be a two-door Taycan. What else could they do? Sling 750kg of battery over the back axle? Can they even shorten the wheelbase without compromising the battery?
Edited by plfrench on Sunday 14th April 20:14
plfrench said:
Surely it is no different to the Panamera vs 911 currently - they managed to sell both successfully alongside one another and a 911 isn't just a Panamera with two doors left out... if anything the EV drivetrain will give them more flexibility to differentiate further between Taycan and 911. I'd imagine the engineers are having a whale of a time being released from the usual ICE drivetrain constraints.
The 911 and Panamera are hugely different - they have completely different engines at opposite ends of the car! The differences between an electric 911 and a Taycan will be negligible in comparison. As for drivetrain flexibility, I suspect almost all the difference will be in software - push one button for Taycan mode, push another for 911 mode. Why build an entirely separate car, when one car can be programmed to do both? Edited by plfrench on Sunday 14th April 20:14
NDNDNDND said:
The 911 and Panamera are hugely different - they have completely different engines at opposite ends of the car! The differences between an electric 911 and a Taycan will be negligible in comparison. As for drivetrain flexibility, I suspect almost all the difference will be in software - push one button for Taycan mode, push another for 911 mode. Why build an entirely separate car, when one car can be programmed to do both?
That's my point, they designed them completely differently with ICE, so why does this have to stop with EV? They could go four x motor-in-wheel setup for example with the 911 to enable all sorts of handling options for example. They could look at seriously trick active aero with the 911 GT models taking advantage of the higher voltage electrical systems on board, further evolution of the use of an EV multi-ratio gearbox in the 911 to introduce some driver engagement, etc, etc. These are obviously just random ideas off the top of my head, but I'm 100% sure Porsche engineers and designers will not pass up the opportunity to make the 911 stand out in their range and amongst its competition. DonkeyApple said:
wisbech said:
DonkeyApple said:
GTs and sports cars remain pretty useless as EVs because battery tech remains hugely inefficient and no one wants to spend £200k to be hanging out with the sort of punters who use motorway services. It'll be years yet before those types of non essential cars work well as EVs, or at least the EV solution fits the sales pitch of freedom and luxury. Meanwhile, within just a few years we've reached the point where shopping and commuter boxes that live on driveways work better as EVs than ICE already, especially when that household has more than one car.
But when you look at the practical use of GT & sportscars, EV do work pretty well. Tiny annual mileage, usually multiple car household with secure parking. Cars used for short weekend trips/ cruising down a high street/ track days/ background props to weddings.But, you are right, they are sold with the pretense they will be used to race the Blue Train.
Porsche going full EV early doors while having decades of data harvested from cars that reveal exactly what GTs and sports cars are really used for is a bit of a clue.
The reality is that the typical GT is just used to drive from Milton Keynes to Derby where Gary has a meeting about about how to best spend this years marketing budget to sell the most curtain rails and fittings, no different to what he was using a BMW 320D for a decade earlier when he held a more junior position in the company. And the sports car is being used by folk who traditionally would have invested part of their pension after 35 years working for the public sector in an MGB. They have no hair to release into the wild and their weekend haunts are pre planned and booked months in advance and the route planned to enable to most efficient and constant 45mph speed from A to B regardless of whether on the motorway or through the sleepy village.
The one true problem with EVs is that they overtly reveal the total marketing b
ks of the vendors of GTs and sports cars and the reality that the majority of buyers are dull as fk and just desperately hope the shape of some object creates an illusion of dynamism and action to themselves. The likes of AM building their entire 21st century brand on this delusion and who will find it much harder to resell with an EV than someone like VW and their Porsche products. AM need to partner with one of the efuel spankers some time this year as they haven't got a wealthy parent company to create their own spin for punters.
It's going to be quite some years before I personally buy a large EV that's supposed to be for mile munching just because I don't want the object to be dictating how I drive, what route I take or where and when I must stop. You don't normally spend £100k to lose freedom but an EV for all the local stuff will be bought when the current jalopy that does that work expires as the EV equivalent is a total no brainer and will just be easier to use and much less hassle.
I think what gets overlooked sometimes is that it's not always about money but about convenience. An EV for the big mile munching duties remains less convenient today than an ICE. Conversely, an EV as a shopping car dumped on the driveway is already more convenient than an ICE.
Will an EV ever actually be more emotive and pleasurable as a classic ICE car? Personally, I don't think so. I just don't see how it would be remotely fun to wake up on a Sunday morning with nowhere to be, nothing to do and just decide to fire up some smelly old petrol car and randomly drive off in a random direction wondering if you'll end up anywhere interesting while not caring about how or when you get back. Even once remote charging is ubiquitous and you can just peel off at any junction and into any retail car park and refuel I'm just not convinced there will be any true fun from not having the smell, the noise and simply thrashing the balls off some old mechanical object.
In that regard the sports car is dead but it wasn't killed by EVs in the 2020s, the sports car died back in the 1990s when they just became practical generic, every day utility cars and fitted with electric hoods, electric seats, electric vents. The electric motor killed the sports car thirty years ago or rather the demand from consumers for faux sports cars that were every day practical with all mod cons. The funeral service for sports cars was held at the 2008 Geneva Motor Show and hosted by VW who introduced the Audi TT, which was already one of the cars responsible for killing off the true sports car, with a diesel engine. And people bought it. They bought it because they didn't want a sports car, they wanted an every day normal car that looked like a sports car.
EV for chore driving: Done. Already here. Works better than any ICE and the infrastructure that allows more people to take advantage will just keep growing over the next 20 years as will the battery tech but all in its job jobbed already.
EV for crushing continents or heading off in any old direction with no plan in mind: not there yet. We need private charging clubs to properly expand, more general remote charging at retail units along A and B roads and much better battery tech so that you are actually free to use your own car on your own terms without it either weighting 4 tonnes to work at proper speeds over proper distances or to avoid having route plan and stop in ghastly places where people go to smack their kids and show off how they can both smoke and eat simultaneously as well as miss the bins with both. These types of EVs need more time but as you say already work if you're not actually using them as GTs or sports cars.
Pure fun, non essential, pleasure driving? I don't think it'll ever happen and so everyone with an ICE who wants to keep an ICe needs to start looking after their ICEs or planning how to get one at last orders. And despite the bell ringing loud and clear behind there bar at ten too there will always be losers who stagger to the bar at ten past and then get upset that they've f
ked it up for themselves and that it's all someone else's fault. 
plfrench said:
NDNDNDND said:
The 911 and Panamera are hugely different - they have completely different engines at opposite ends of the car! The differences between an electric 911 and a Taycan will be negligible in comparison. As for drivetrain flexibility, I suspect almost all the difference will be in software - push one button for Taycan mode, push another for 911 mode. Why build an entirely separate car, when one car can be programmed to do both?
That's my point, they designed them completely differently with ICE, so why does this have to stop with EV? They could go four x motor-in-wheel setup for example with the 911 to enable all sorts of handling options for example. They could look at seriously trick active aero with the 911 GT models taking advantage of the higher voltage electrical systems on board, further evolution of the use of an EV multi-ratio gearbox in the 911 to introduce some driver engagement, etc, etc. These are obviously just random ideas off the top of my head, but I'm 100% sure Porsche engineers and designers will not pass up the opportunity to make the 911 stand out in their range and amongst its competition. I've assumed, maybe erroneously, that when Porsche have been saying that they will be going 100% EV ahead of the legislation dates that this would be for the more standard models and that they would still be selling things like the GT3 as petrol cars for as long as possible?
Trying to get back to AM, I think hybrid is a much better path for as long as possible so the cars can run on electric in town but retain the freedom, luxury and experience of petrol on the open road. A pure EV DBX is one thing but I think models like the Vantage would just lose too much character and appeal. They will probably sit and watch how it goes for Porsche initially?
Trying to get back to AM, I think hybrid is a much better path for as long as possible so the cars can run on electric in town but retain the freedom, luxury and experience of petrol on the open road. A pure EV DBX is one thing but I think models like the Vantage would just lose too much character and appeal. They will probably sit and watch how it goes for Porsche initially?
DonkeyApple said:
I've assumed, maybe erroneously, that when Porsche have been saying that they will be going 100% EV ahead of the legislation dates that this would be for the more standard models and that they would still be selling things like the GT3 as petrol cars for as long as possible?
Trying to get back to AM, I think hybrid is a much better path for as long as possible so the cars can run on electric in town but retain the freedom, luxury and experience of petrol on the open road. A pure EV DBX is one thing but I think models like the Vantage would just lose too much character and appeal. They will probably sit and watch how it goes for Porsche initially?
Porsche sell about 320,000 car a year and the Taycan represented 41,000 of those. Taycan sales went up by over 16% year on year in the last quarter. Trying to get back to AM, I think hybrid is a much better path for as long as possible so the cars can run on electric in town but retain the freedom, luxury and experience of petrol on the open road. A pure EV DBX is one thing but I think models like the Vantage would just lose too much character and appeal. They will probably sit and watch how it goes for Porsche initially?
The Cayenne and Macan remain easily the best sellers. Apparently Porsche still maintain an 18% margin which is pretty impressive in the Automotive sector.
Aston Martin sold 6,600 cars in 2023 so they are not really comparable from a scale perspective and their SuV sales dropped significantly last year.
Whatever their plan is it would seem it is not going very well and hanging their hat on Hybrid may only be a short term fix. What happens after 2035 as in car development terms that is not very far away.
This year will be important for AM as the cars now have Stroll interiors which are befitting of the price tag. To date he's been trying to sell Dave's cars with pretty shabby Merc dashboards and all his usual corner cutting which just wasn't justifying the prices being asked. They'll never have the advantage Porsche has with their re trimmed VW products but they live in a different space to Porsche in that regard. And partnering with Licid for the EV solution looks like it may not work out which is probably the key driver for the PR shift to hybrid among other things. By 2035 we will almost certainly have better battery tech and charging network which will be what the likes of AM need. Their largest hurdle is their debt refinancing as Dave completely stripped the business and Stroll loaded up the debt even further in the buyout.
Nish Gnackers said:
Trying to stop his margin call on the Twitter debt he secured with TSLA stk. He's also not getting any of the dumb punter cash this year as they've all jumped to AI and his highly leveraged, you her client base is globally screwed due to years of over shopping and gambling addictions which they may even still think was fractional share investing for their pensions. The core customer base has just had its first introduction to the real world where money has a worth.
Meanwhile, check out BYD's share price YTD. EVs are best made and sold to people who can afford to pay for them even after the price of free range hummus and beard trimmers jump a devastating 8%.
It's also worth making a mental note to not allow yourself to be goaded into massively over paying for a dwindling social media platform and having to put up a load of car stock as collateral only for that to keep falling in value so you need to put more up and put more out for lending which makes shorting cheaper for everyone else borrowing your stock.
First cut when some money is needed is always the labour pool.
Donald's stock looks to have dumped pre-open so it's not looking like a great day to be a scumbag nutbag with a U.S. passport and weird face.
DonkeyApple said:
They tried rebadged Toyotas and having a pretty good shot at assembling their own Mercedes. 
The reference to VW is pertinent by the disparity between Porsche and Aston re their plausible pathways to pure electrification. They're both going to arrive at the exact same place but via differing paths but very similar PR bullst for the masses. I'd put money on Stroll doing some tie up for an efuel for the race cars and trying to get road car users on board with dreams that they'll get some.
Meanwhile, as Lucid looks to be going down the pan they'll fall back on Merc's hybrid tech to fill the void and spin it up as some genius master plan that has come from listening to their customers.
If we do some basic tiering, Porsche and AMG play in the same posh versions of lesser cars plus some unique models. If we were to be very generous, Lotus is also trying to play there. That's all going to be quite EV centric with some legacy ICE models. Various posh SUVs and saloons where EVs can be part of the mix. The reference to VW is pertinent by the disparity between Porsche and Aston re their plausible pathways to pure electrification. They're both going to arrive at the exact same place but via differing paths but very similar PR bulls
t for the masses. I'd put money on Stroll doing some tie up for an efuel for the race cars and trying to get road car users on board with dreams that they'll get some. Meanwhile, as Lucid looks to be going down the pan they'll fall back on Merc's hybrid tech to fill the void and spin it up as some genius master plan that has come from listening to their customers.
Aston is in supercar territory with a similar set of buyers as let's say Ferrari. So Porsche's approach is largely irrelevant. Perhaps Aston can make an EV much like Ferrari can make an EV but their customer base isn't exactly staying up at night wondering what this might be. Ferrari is even struggling a bit with the PHEV value prop but it's probably a necessity to meet some EU rules. Both can in reality completely ignore EVs for years and years and years and do very well. With the caveat that they will lose out on BIK benefits in markets like the UK but they may or may not care that much.
Hence Aston can do nothing and the market will come to them.
DMZ said:
DonkeyApple said:
They tried rebadged Toyotas and having a pretty good shot at assembling their own Mercedes.
The reference to VW is pertinent by the disparity between Porsche and Aston re their plausible pathways to pure electrification. They're both going to arrive at the exact same place but via differing paths but very similar PR bullst for the masses. I'd put money on Stroll doing some tie up for an efuel for the race cars and trying to get road car users on board with dreams that they'll get some.
Meanwhile, as Lucid looks to be going down the pan they'll fall back on Merc's hybrid tech to fill the void and spin it up as some genius master plan that has come from listening to their customers.
If we do some basic tiering, Porsche and AMG play in the same posh versions of lesser cars plus some unique models. If we were to be very generous, Lotus is also trying to play there. That's all going to be quite EV centric with some legacy ICE models. Various posh SUVs and saloons where EVs can be part of the mix. The reference to VW is pertinent by the disparity between Porsche and Aston re their plausible pathways to pure electrification. They're both going to arrive at the exact same place but via differing paths but very similar PR bulls
t for the masses. I'd put money on Stroll doing some tie up for an efuel for the race cars and trying to get road car users on board with dreams that they'll get some. Meanwhile, as Lucid looks to be going down the pan they'll fall back on Merc's hybrid tech to fill the void and spin it up as some genius master plan that has come from listening to their customers.
Aston is in supercar territory with a similar set of buyers as let's say Ferrari. So Porsche's approach is largely irrelevant. Perhaps Aston can make an EV much like Ferrari can make an EV but their customer base isn't exactly staying up at night wondering what this might be. Ferrari is even struggling a bit with the PHEV value prop but it's probably a necessity to meet some EU rules. Both can in reality completely ignore EVs for years and years and years and do very well. With the caveat that they will lose out on BIK benefits in markets like the UK but they may or may not care that much.
Hence Aston can do nothing and the market will come to them.
Porsche and below have a bigger challenge - too big to be exempt and too mass market to pass on the fines to customers
DMZ said:
If we do some basic tiering, Porsche and AMG play in the same posh versions of lesser cars plus some unique models. If we were to be very generous, Lotus is also trying to play there. That's all going to be quite EV centric with some legacy ICE models. Various posh SUVs and saloons where EVs can be part of the mix.
Aston is in supercar territory with a similar set of buyers as let's say Ferrari. So Porsche's approach is largely irrelevant. Perhaps Aston can make an EV much like Ferrari can make an EV but their customer base isn't exactly staying up at night wondering what this might be. Ferrari is even struggling a bit with the PHEV value prop but it's probably a necessity to meet some EU rules. Both can in reality completely ignore EVs for years and years and years and do very well. With the caveat that they will lose out on BIK benefits in markets like the UK but they may or may not care that much.
Hence Aston can do nothing and the market will come to them.
Within reason I tend to agree. Their core focus at present is to stem the decline of the share price which has been falling for nearly a year and hampering impending refinancing. They've managed to pay down a big slug of that really toxic debt but still have a lot of work to do and Stroll, like Musk has other things being secured against his listed stock. Ultimately what the customers say isn't relevant, it's what the market wants to hear AM saying that matters and so their PR will flip and flop with that. 12 months ago it was about saying how everything is going EV and amazing and this week it's about saying everything isn't going EV just yet but it's all still amazing. They've not had to play the hydrogen card and that punter bubble has burst now but I still expect the eFuels card to get played if the share price doesn't recover in Q2 on the back of the really positive interior revamps of the cars. Aston is in supercar territory with a similar set of buyers as let's say Ferrari. So Porsche's approach is largely irrelevant. Perhaps Aston can make an EV much like Ferrari can make an EV but their customer base isn't exactly staying up at night wondering what this might be. Ferrari is even struggling a bit with the PHEV value prop but it's probably a necessity to meet some EU rules. Both can in reality completely ignore EVs for years and years and years and do very well. With the caveat that they will lose out on BIK benefits in markets like the UK but they may or may not care that much.
Hence Aston can do nothing and the market will come to them.
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