Discussion
Xenoous said:
The 8speed ZF is fantastic, quite why they decided to do a 9 speed, I don't know. The e-pace we tested had the 9 speed box, stupid thing.
The ZF8 speed is a longitudinally mounted gearbox for proper cars and is brilliant, the ZF9 speed is for transverse cars and is not brilliant.It's always been like this, transverse cuckboxes are miles off the pace of a contemporary longitudinal box even considering the shortcomings of the transverse platforms they're fitted too. They need to be packaged much more tightly to fit end on a transverse engine and find themselves largely in much cheaper cars, leading to enhanced crapness.
I think cuckbox progress in terms of driveability has been pretty much minimal since the 2nd gen ZF6, a taller final gear is nice in the ZF8 but in auto it's shuffling about too much chasing the last 0.01g of CO2 emissions for the test and it's irritating. I think all progress since 2009 ish has been about fiddling the tests not making the car better to use.
The 10 speed in the Mustang is a stand out awful gearbox, as someone mentioned. All the dim wittedness of a 90s five speed box combined with all the irritating gear shuffling of a 2024 spec far too many ratios gearbox. Straight up ruins the car.
To drive some dismal turbocharged four pot crossover with a transverse 9+ gear transmission is to be glad these things will f
k off soon and be replaced by EVs. A very sad way to see out internal combustion.Edited by GeniusOfLove on Tuesday 23 April 16:39
some bloke said:
I read somewhere that the high number of gears is so the engine can stay at or around peak torque. Although you'd think with the big V8 torque output nowadays it wouldn't matter that much. I like the powerglide in my Impala cos it's a big lazy cruiser, but prefer a manual for smaller zippier cars.
The 7 speed in my 380 bhp car is better than the 5 speed that was in the 3 previous 300-ish bhp cars.The changes are seamless and it's extremely easy for it to get the correct gear for whatever I'm trying to do.
MitchT said:
As an aside, does anyone feel a little bit out of control reversing an auto if you have to give it some gas?
I've always driven manuals but my neighbour, whom I'm friends with, asked me to give his Skoda Octavia auto a run out every so often when he was away for a few months. No issues except, where he parks, you have to reverse up a very slight incline. If it was level I could just let it roll and cover the brake, but as it was slightly uphill I had to give it a bit of gas and, to me, there was too much acceleration. In a manual I'd just slip the clutch a bit to control it but in an auto there's no such option - it's like an on/off switch. Made me wonder how I'll get on when I eventually get round to buying the BMW 440i that I'm currently hunting for.
Yes I get this in my S5. The parking assist holds you while you build up the revs then it just flies backwards! I've always driven manuals but my neighbour, whom I'm friends with, asked me to give his Skoda Octavia auto a run out every so often when he was away for a few months. No issues except, where he parks, you have to reverse up a very slight incline. If it was level I could just let it roll and cover the brake, but as it was slightly uphill I had to give it a bit of gas and, to me, there was too much acceleration. In a manual I'd just slip the clutch a bit to control it but in an auto there's no such option - it's like an on/off switch. Made me wonder how I'll get on when I eventually get round to buying the BMW 440i that I'm currently hunting for.
MitchT said:
As an aside, does anyone feel a little bit out of control reversing an auto if you have to give it some gas?
I've always driven manuals but my neighbour, whom I'm friends with, asked me to give his Skoda Octavia auto a run out every so often when he was away for a few months. No issues except, where he parks, you have to reverse up a very slight incline. If it was level I could just let it roll and cover the brake, but as it was slightly uphill I had to give it a bit of gas and, to me, there was too much acceleration. In a manual I'd just slip the clutch a bit to control it but in an auto there's no such option - it's like an on/off switch. Made me wonder how I'll get on when I eventually get round to buying the BMW 440i that I'm currently hunting for.
The Octavia is highly likely to have a dual clutch box, rather than a torque converter auto, and so may be less good at low speed manoeuvring. The 440i will no doubt have a ZF8 torque converter auto and may well be better at it. I've always driven manuals but my neighbour, whom I'm friends with, asked me to give his Skoda Octavia auto a run out every so often when he was away for a few months. No issues except, where he parks, you have to reverse up a very slight incline. If it was level I could just let it roll and cover the brake, but as it was slightly uphill I had to give it a bit of gas and, to me, there was too much acceleration. In a manual I'd just slip the clutch a bit to control it but in an auto there's no such option - it's like an on/off switch. Made me wonder how I'll get on when I eventually get round to buying the BMW 440i that I'm currently hunting for.
Looking at the ZF8 and the older 5/6 speed autos it seems that the 2-7 spread on the 8sp is very similar to the total spread on the 5/6sp - ie. the extra cogs are a tall top and a short bottom. So if you're "playing manual" just forget about 1st and 8th.
My old 5G did ~2.2k at 70mph, the ZF8 seems more like 1.5k; good for efficiency and not a problem assuming you don't have a gutless stb0x that needs to kick-down on motorway inclines.
Can't say I have "smoothness" issues with the ZF8, and honestly can't imagine how anyone else would. Once in a blue moon it has a brain fart and spits out the wrong gear, but I could count those events on an annual basis.
My old 5G did ~2.2k at 70mph, the ZF8 seems more like 1.5k; good for efficiency and not a problem assuming you don't have a gutless s
tb0x that needs to kick-down on motorway inclines. Can't say I have "smoothness" issues with the ZF8, and honestly can't imagine how anyone else would. Once in a blue moon it has a brain fart and spits out the wrong gear, but I could count those events on an annual basis.
Gad-Westy said:
A fair point though I would say that if you were driving a 6 speed manual in a spirited fashion you'd probably only be using 3 or four gears so six still seems a lot.
I think with my zf8, 3rd and 4th are pretty much all you need for spirited driving (assuming you’re keeping it under triple figures) which would be similar to the manual equivalent.The main gripe I have with mine is kick down is dumb and when activated will drop to a gear with revs at 5.5k and immediately hit the limiter and need to change up, making you look and sound like a bit of a donut. Most of the time now for overtakes I’ll pre-select a gear manually to be ready to get on with it!
Chris
Gad-Westy said:
A fair point though I would say that if you were driving a 6 speed manual in a spirited fashion you'd probably only be using 3 or four gears so six still seems a lot. I'm sure I could adjust but my other cars are manual and I find the 8 speed very 'weird'. As I say, great as an auto though. I actually found the same with the 7 speed DSG in an Audi S4 as well. Sometimes I feel these cars with lots of ratios and manual overrides would benefit from a big, obvious gear indicator right in front of you. BMW and Audi will show you which gear you're in but it's a small display.
The gear indicator is either D for auto. M5 (or whatever gear you are in) or S5 (if using sport manual mode). Essentially, the only indication you need is the rev counter, when in manual mode on an auto. Mine is an F30 335d, so usually runs between 1.3k and 1.8k rpm. When in manual it is minimum 2k and usually up to 4.5k ( rev limiter is at 5.3/5.4k rpm). trevalvole said:
The Octavia is highly likely to have a dual clutch box, rather than a torque converter auto, and so may be less good at low speed manoeuvring. The 440i will no doubt have a ZF8 torque converter auto and may well be better at it.
No idea what kind of 'box is in the Octavia but a quick check online reveals that it's a 999cc engine with a 7 speed auto.Alex_225 said:
It certainly seems modern gearboxes rely on their speed to change gear rather than being in the right gear for the speed you're doing. You know, like how you're taught to drive! I assume it's all for emissions sake rather than the driveability.
We had a new GLC Merc a couple of years back was a 9 speed auto and unless you kept it in the sporty setting, it was never in the right gear and was just changing all the time. The 7 speed auto in my CL isn't bad but it's a fairly gutsy engine so it doesn't do too much stirring of the gearbox thankfully but on a smaller revvier engine it could be annoying.
I honestly found the old 5g gearbox in my ancient E Class really nice. At slow speeds it'd stay in 3rd or 4th and due to the torque it would get moving without changing down.
I have the 5g in my old E Class. I've driven a friends E with the 7 and I much prefer the 5, it just seemed so ponderous, I don't get that with mine, smoother too.We had a new GLC Merc a couple of years back was a 9 speed auto and unless you kept it in the sporty setting, it was never in the right gear and was just changing all the time. The 7 speed auto in my CL isn't bad but it's a fairly gutsy engine so it doesn't do too much stirring of the gearbox thankfully but on a smaller revvier engine it could be annoying.
I honestly found the old 5g gearbox in my ancient E Class really nice. At slow speeds it'd stay in 3rd or 4th and due to the torque it would get moving without changing down.
MitchT said:
As an aside, does anyone feel a little bit out of control reversing an auto if you have to give it some gas?
I've always driven manuals but my neighbour, whom I'm friends with, asked me to give his Skoda Octavia auto a run out every so often when he was away for a few months. No issues except, where he parks, you have to reverse up a very slight incline. If it was level I could just let it roll and cover the brake, but as it was slightly uphill I had to give it a bit of gas and, to me, there was too much acceleration. In a manual I'd just slip the clutch a bit to control it but in an auto there's no such option - it's like an on/off switch. Made me wonder how I'll get on when I eventually get round to buying the BMW 440i that I'm currently hunting for.
You will be fine in the BMW, what you describe is one of the reason why I dislke VW's DSG so much, they also get worse when they get older, thats if they last that long.I've always driven manuals but my neighbour, whom I'm friends with, asked me to give his Skoda Octavia auto a run out every so often when he was away for a few months. No issues except, where he parks, you have to reverse up a very slight incline. If it was level I could just let it roll and cover the brake, but as it was slightly uphill I had to give it a bit of gas and, to me, there was too much acceleration. In a manual I'd just slip the clutch a bit to control it but in an auto there's no such option - it's like an on/off switch. Made me wonder how I'll get on when I eventually get round to buying the BMW 440i that I'm currently hunting for.
OP, the Mustang has a 10 speed box.
In USA last year we had a Toyota Avalon with a V6 engine and auto box. The box was far too keen to kickdown and that was annoying because the engine was a peach, so smooth and linear delivery. But it'd be interrupted by a clumsy kickdown instead. Manual mode was also flawed (no paddles and it was Push for Up, Pull for Down) but I had to use it on anything that wasn't a highway to stop progress being vomit inducing.
Conversely, the C-HR I hired in europe with a CVT was fine, that gearbox was perfect for that car and its easy to drive in a way that doesn't make it moo.
Conversely, the C-HR I hired in europe with a CVT was fine, that gearbox was perfect for that car and its easy to drive in a way that doesn't make it moo.
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