RE: Lotus Evija X sets third fastest 'ring time ever

[GT9]

A standard Evija around the ring no doubt has too much power, not enough aero.
The X is a bit like what Aston did with the Valkyrie AMR Pro.
This 'ring flexing between the manufacturers has been going on for ages, and will continue.
From a battery technology the Evija probably arrived a bit early on the scene.
The nemesis for this car is probably the Porsche Mission X, Lotus are putting down a marker, Porsche will eventually respond.
Interesting to watch I think, but not really for comparing what came before in terms of ICE, hybrid or even the ID.R lap times.

[ImFeelingSaucy]

RumbleOfThunder said:

E90_M3Ross said:

GT9 said:

E90_M3Ross said:

Is it an epic job? If it was to be the fastest EV they've failed. They're almost 20 seconds down on what VW did 4-5 years ago? It's a very fast time indeed, but not entirely sure what is so special about it.

The Evija has a battery more than twice the capacity of the ID.R.
The VW has a mass of just over 1 ton and was built for one purpose only.
The Lotus is closer to 2 tons and the X's powertrain is identical to the road car.
If EV's leave you cold, no problem, but calling the Evija a failure seems a bit disingenuous.

It may well have a battery half the size, but for what purpose was this Evija X built for? You say the VW was built for one purpose only, suggesting this was built for something else, but considering it isn't road legal I'm struggling to think of something other than lap times at a track?

So it has an identical powertrain to a road car....I'm not sure the relevance of that, really? It isn't like with ICE they need to meet emission standards etc, it's just a battery and motors, very powerful ones at that.

Not sure where you got your last comment from. I merely said that I didn't this was that impressive given VW built an EV race car which was much faster 4-5 years ago

You're being obtuse. As just explained to you, the Eviya X while extreme is still derived from a road car with a road car power train (designed for drivability and hundreds of miles of range). These factors right off the bat put it at a giant disadvantage to the VW, which is a purpose made prototype, exactly for this type of application, with barely enough battery to make it round a single lap. The Lotus is impressive by any reasonable standard.

This is nothing more than a desperate attempt to raise the profile of the Evija which is now old news and really struggling to sell.
Not sure anyone will be swayed by this to actually buy one.

That said, the Lotus team did a great job preparing the car and the driver left nothing out on the track.

Sadly, it is all for nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Meaningless car and a meaningless lap time (like the majority of non road legal track special ring records).

EV cars will undoubtedly be a big part of our future but just not this type of thing (well, not for years yet).
There just isn't the appetite from buyers - just look at the Taycan sales and residuals.
IMO EV development should focus on efficient urban based vehicles and public transport rather than building incredibly expensive hyper cars for the wealthy who seemingly aren't very interested.
If they are not commercially viable we'll see more companies go to the wall, and people losing their jobs - never a good thing.

[GT9]

honda_exige said:

If you throw enough ridiculous aero at something it will start cornering relatively fast - regardless of what is powering it - but this shows acutely that it can't run away from the fundamental weight issue of an EV.

I like to see things at a system level.
The Lotus is one of the first of a bunch of ultimate road cars that can be entirely powered by the sun, and can be almost entirely recycled into another one when it's done its time.
A pathway to end the relentless digging up stuff and burning it.
Yes, there is a front end hit to dig more stuff up, but at least we've started to stop burning it.
The Mercedes-AMG One is not that car.
I appreciate that comment is instantly going to draw derision and pigeon-hole me as an eco-whatever.
Regardless I see it as a new chapter in how cars feature in our lives for the next 100 years.
The early cars in this chapter are compromised, they're not for everyone, but the positive thing is, they now exist.
Put simply, I think that is a good thing.

[blearyeyedboy]

DanG355 said:

Looks like something out of Ridge Racer. Welcome to the future...

A car my 12-year-old self would imagine we'd all be driving in 2030. At the price, possibly not but what a thing.

I've been fortunate enough to see two in the metal, one static and one in motion. They are truly mind-blowing to see.

I think history will be kinder to this car than this forum thread.

[Mackofthejungle]

Does anyone care? I mean, quick time, fine, but what's the point? Fair enough I guess, have a go and see what you can do Lotus - it'd be more interesting with an actual road car but hey ho.

But this kind of car ceased to be drivable a long time ago - too much power, all about stats and marketing and nothing to do with enjoying driving. With the P1/918/LaFerrari generation they were mad, but still enjoyable as sports cars (apparently - it's not like any of this affects me!). These things are just...what are they? They strike me as wealthy tt show off machines....because that's what they are I suppose. Engage touch screen graphics that shout RACE and LAUNCH, then push pedal. Meh. You know what? I wouldn't really want a go if someone threw me the keys (which will be a buggy iphone app).

[LotusOmega375D]

I wonder what the ‘Ring lap time is for this new Lotus? Would definitely make a great video.

[thegreenhell]

blearyeyedboy said:

I've been fortunate enough to see two in the metal, one static and one in motion. They are truly mind-blowing to see.

I think history will be kinder to this car than this forum thread.

I didn't even know they'd made any. I thought it was just a show car. Can you actually buy one?

[AmyRichardson]

thegreenhell said:

These are the fastest ever laps on the 20,832m layout of the Nordschleife if you include the lap times from 1983, the only year this configuration was used for international competition:

Position	Time	Car	Driver	Date
1	5:19.546	Porsche 919 Hybrid EVO	Timo Bernhard	2018-06-29
2	6:05.336	Volkswagen ID.R	Romain Dumas	2019-06-03
3	6:11.13	Porsche 956	Stefan Bellof	1983-05-28
4	6:16.85	Porsche 956	Jochen Mass	1983-05-28
5	6:24.047	Lotus Evija X	Dirk Müller	2023-10-13
6	6:26:19	March 832-BMW (F2)	Christian Danner	1983-04-23
7	6:26.81	March 832-BMW (F2)	Beppe Gabbiani	1983-04-23
8	6:27.10	Porsche 956	Jackie Ickx	1983-05-28
9	6:29.17	Maurer MM83-BMW (F2)	Stefan Bellof	1983-04-23
10	6:30.77	Minardi FLY281B-BMW (F2)	Alessandro Nannini	1983-04-23
-	-	-	-	-
17	6:35.183	Mercedes-AMG One	Maro Engel	2022-10-28

• positions 11-16 are another 956 and some more F2 cars.

The F2 cars certainly stand out; 320hp, and yes they are light (about 500kg) but it's a fast circuit and 80s F2 cars are laughably primitive when you see them today...

[British Beef]

honda_exige said:

An incredibly tenuous 'record' to claim.

It's basically a Time Attack build - will people now claim 'their' car is a record holder at some track because a Time Attack car on Slicks set a fast time?

Bellof did 6.11 in the 962 - there are 'plenty' of road legal 962s around, surely that's the fastest road 'chassis' round the place if Lotus want to play that game.

Hasnt the circuit and timed length changed quite a bit since the 80s?

Surfaces, kerbs and timed length, not really apples for apples.

Plus I sure Bellof's 962 on modern slick tyres could go significantly faster.

[honda_exige]

GT9 said:

honda_exige said:

If you throw enough ridiculous aero at something it will start cornering relatively fast - regardless of what is powering it - but this shows acutely that it can't run away from the fundamental weight issue of an EV.

I like to see things at a system level.
The Lotus is one of the first of a bunch of ultimate road cars that can be entirely powered by the sun, and can be almost entirely recycled into another one when it's done its time.
A pathway to end the relentless digging up stuff and burning it.
Yes, there is a front end hit to dig more stuff up, but at least we've started to stop burning it.
The Mercedes-AMG One is not that car.
I appreciate that comment is instantly going to draw derision and pigeon-hole me as an eco-whatever.
Regardless I see it as a new chapter in how cars feature in our lives for the next 100 years.
The early cars in this chapter are compromised, they're not for everyone, but the positive thing is, they now exist.
Put simply, I think that is a good thing.

As a PR stunt it's done the job nicely for probably not an extreme cost.

A less charitable summation might be that they realised the stock Evija can't beat the Rimac's Nurburgring record time and this was plan B.

[thegreenhell]

British Beef said:

Hasnt the circuit and timed length changed quite a bit since the 80s?

Surfaces, kerbs and timed length, not really apples for apples.

Plus I sure Bellof's 962 on modern slick tyres could go significantly faster.

The length and layout is exactly as it was in 1983. That was the year they were building the new GP circuit, so it was the only year that used only the Nordschleife for international competition. Consequently we have comparable lap times for Group C, Formula 2 and ETCC from that year to compare to the latest road cars.

The circuit has been resurfaced many times, some kerbs have been changed and some bumps and crests have changed slightly over time, but the basic circuit is unchanged - same length, same width, same layout.

[WCZ]

GT9 said:

A standard Evija around the ring no doubt has too much power, not enough aero.
The X is a bit like what Aston did with the Valkyrie AMR Pro.
This 'ring flexing between the manufacturers has been going on for ages, and will continue.
From a battery technology the Evija probably arrived a bit early on the scene.
The nemesis for this car is probably the Porsche Mission X, Lotus are putting down a marker, Porsche will eventually respond.
Interesting to watch I think, but not really for comparing what came before in terms of ICE, hybrid or even the ID.R lap times.

the valk amr pro uses an lmp chassis from something completely different with valk bodywork over it iirc!

would be interesting to see what times the standard valk could do but we'll probably never know considering how long the car has been out and only 1 lap time has emerged

[E90_M3Ross]

RumbleOfThunder said:

E90_M3Ross said:

GT9 said:

E90_M3Ross said:

Is it an epic job? If it was to be the fastest EV they've failed. They're almost 20 seconds down on what VW did 4-5 years ago? It's a very fast time indeed, but not entirely sure what is so special about it.

The Evija has a battery more than twice the capacity of the ID.R.
The VW has a mass of just over 1 ton and was built for one purpose only.
The Lotus is closer to 2 tons and the X's powertrain is identical to the road car.
If EV's leave you cold, no problem, but calling the Evija a failure seems a bit disingenuous.

It may well have a battery half the size, but for what purpose was this Evija X built for? You say the VW was built for one purpose only, suggesting this was built for something else, but considering it isn't road legal I'm struggling to think of something other than lap times at a track?

So it has an identical powertrain to a road car....I'm not sure the relevance of that, really? It isn't like with ICE they need to meet emission standards etc, it's just a battery and motors, very powerful ones at that.

Not sure where you got your last comment from. I merely said that I didn't this was that impressive given VW built an EV race car which was much faster 4-5 years ago

You're being obtuse. As just explained to you, the Eviya X while extreme is still derived from a road car with a road car power train (designed for drivability and hundreds of miles of range). These factors right off the bat put it at a giant disadvantage to the VW, which is a purpose made prototype, exactly for this type of application, with barely enough battery to make it round a single lap. The Lotus is impressive by any reasonable standard.

It is an impressive time, but "epic" was the word used. Is it epic? Is a car with 2000bhp going 10 seconds faster than a road legal car particularly "epic"? Not in my opinion, no

[CG2020UK]

E90_M3Ross said:

It is an impressive time, but "epic" was the word used. Is it epic? Is a car with 2000bhp going 10 seconds faster than a road legal car particularly "epic"? Not in my opinion, no

+1

It’s got 2000bhp for flip sake

[TheJimi]

GT9 said:

honda_exige said:

If you throw enough ridiculous aero at something it will start cornering relatively fast - regardless of what is powering it - but this shows acutely that it can't run away from the fundamental weight issue of an EV.

I like to see things at a system level.
The Lotus is one of the first of a bunch of ultimate road cars that can be entirely powered by the sun, and can be almost entirely recycled into another one when it's done its time.
A pathway to end the relentless digging up stuff and burning it.
Yes, there is a front end hit to dig more stuff up, but at least we've started to stop burning it.
The Mercedes-AMG One is not that car.
I appreciate that comment is instantly going to draw derision and pigeon-hole me as an eco-whatever.
Regardless I see it as a new chapter in how cars feature in our lives for the next 100 years.
The early cars in this chapter are compromised, they're not for everyone, but the positive thing is, they now exist.
Put simply, I think that is a good thing.

Electric cars do very little for me but I agree with this.

[Olivera]

honda_exige said:

Bellof did 6.11 in the 962 - there are 'plenty' of road legal 962s around, surely that's the fastest road 'chassis' round the place if Lotus want to play that game.

...

Plus I sure Bellof's 962 on modern slick tyres could go significantly faster.

Have you seen footage of the 962 crash at Spa a few years ago? Relatively low speed but the front end completely disintegrated. They are very flimsy cars by even late 1980s standards, hence Jag with a clean sheet design for the XJR cars moved to a carbon tub. I suspect crashing a 962 at the ring at remotely high speed could well be fatal.

The more pertinent question is what's the point of this when a recent GT3 race car will lap at a very similar pace, is eligible to race, and would cost 1/10th the price.

[GT9]

honda_exige said:

As a PR stunt it's done the job nicely for probably not an extreme cost.

A less charitable summation might be that they realised the stock Evija can't beat the Rimac's Nurburgring record time and this was plan B.

Putting 2000 bhp in a 2 ton road car is almost entirely only ever used for relatively straight line acceleration.
1000 bhp per ton can in theory deliver 1g acceleration up to 150 mph, as long as the power is metered out linearly to match the road speed.
For autobahn driving at 150 mph plus, the main task is to stop the car taking off at whatever speed that power can take you to, not to deliver insane cornering speeds.
The road car around the 'ring, where speeds are exceeding 200 mph, is a different proposition and I'd say it loses a substantial amount of time compared to what the X can do.
Setting a 'ring lap in the road car was never going to get the best out of it and from a PR perspective might have been a bit of an own goal if the time sat around that of the Rimac.
As you say, the extra aero didn't cost that much in the scheme of things but it can get substantially more out of the powertrain.

[oilit]

I guess I'm getting old, that video was dull as dishwater.

No emotion senses apart from a rattly something and lots of whining noise.

If this is the future of ‘fun’ - i feel sorry fo the generations who missed the good old years!

[TheJimi]

I don't think a balls-to-the-wall timed run on the Nordschleife is necessarily what most folk would regard as fun, per-se.

[blearyeyedboy]

thegreenhell said:

I didn't even know they'd made any. I thought it was just a show car. Can you actually buy one?

Well, I can't because I'm too poor.

Yes, they are on sale for about £2.5million. I was lucky enough to be shown around on an Emira factory tour- much recommended- but we weren't shown around the Evija facility. I saw one leave that facility and drive towards Hethel's test track... as a spectator it made for impressive automotive theatre, regardless of drivetrain.