Greatest all weather point-to-point car?
Discussion
Gazboy said:Much, thanks.
Hence the reason I drive what I drive. Slightly leftfield has always seemed a comfortable place for me.
Eh?
Really sorry if anyone has taken that the wrong way. It was (as indicated by the two smilies) a tongue-in-cheek comment. It seemed to me that four pages into a thread that has touched on Caterhams, Locost racers, group B rally cars and 800+ bhp Pike's Peak specials, it was a bit rum to describe a Toyota Celica as a leftfield choice.
Specifically, I was not suggesting that the Celica was not a good car, nor that anyone who owns one shouldn't be perfectly happy with it.
Again, sorry for any distress this has caused.
Point to Point - A to B, Ultimately there is only so much power you can use. Much as I love the idea of a Group B Monster roaring across country, let's reign our enthusiasm to road cars (Don't want to pee on anyone's fire, but in the real world, there are police and laws).
I reckon you can have a real blast with anything light and quick and (providing you can really pedal) you can go about as fast as anything else.
I have a Focus ST and I know it wouldn't see which way a well driven EVO (let alone Porsche 911TT) went, but - and this is the point - more often than not, they DON'T USE IT ALL.
Same driver, same conditions, same traffic (all hypothetical, of course) put my money down on the naroow bodies Ruf 911 please. Who will give me 10-1?
I reckon you can have a real blast with anything light and quick and (providing you can really pedal) you can go about as fast as anything else.
I have a Focus ST and I know it wouldn't see which way a well driven EVO (let alone Porsche 911TT) went, but - and this is the point - more often than not, they DON'T USE IT ALL.
Same driver, same conditions, same traffic (all hypothetical, of course) put my money down on the naroow bodies Ruf 911 please. Who will give me 10-1?
jamieboy said:
Really sorry if anyone has taken that the wrong way. It was (as indicated by the two smilies) a tongue-in-cheek comment. It seemed to me that four pages into a thread that has touched on Caterhams, Locost racers, group B rally cars and 800+ bhp Pike's Peak specials, it was a bit rum to describe a Toyota Celica as a leftfield choice.
Specifically, I was not suggesting that the Celica was not a good car, nor that anyone who owns one shouldn't be perfectly happy with it.
Again, sorry for any distress this has caused.
I read it as tongue in cheek, but I don't think anyone was seriously suggesting a pikes peak loony wagon as a daily driver.
Seriously, if the question is point to point speed, it comes down to either a supercar (possibly too big/expensive), a lightweight Catafield special (possibly rather interesting in the rain), or a 4wd rallycar. Of the latter catagory, everyone always bangs on about the Evo-ezza-grale. I didn't buy one of those. I bought something from the same studio of ideas that is a natch below the radar.
Matthew C said:
What's with the obsession with flappy paddles?
Because they're cool
and the only time I've ever seen some on a car was when I was in a Vanquish 
The driver said to me found them far better for a car like that than a manual. Yeh, my first car won't be like that, but I think they'd be fun 
bluespanner said:
How about a 1988 1.4GL Escort?
Not a chance mate! My mum keeps telling me to buy a C2 1.1...
flemke said:
Perhaps the fault was my own for presuming that it would be obvious that any PHer (including me) would always admire the Caterfield/Locost genre.
In addition to the rawness, I think you would find that they are amazingly tactile and will give the driver loads of feedback. In those cars you can be sure that it's not the car that sorts things out for you.
Hope you can achieve this dream, and many others after it.
(ps: For the first seven years of my full-time working life I was a self-employed cabinetmaker/joiner, and I didn't even start that until I was four years older than you are now. Be focused, be patient and be willing to take risks, and good things can happen.)
In my experience, there are quite a few "petrolheads" who don't like Caterhams, although that's possibly because they've never driven one and just see it as an impractical car. Maybe many PHer's like them although I'm sure I could find a few who don't like them.
As for acheiving my dream, yet another obstacle has come up tonight - an insurance quote for £3200 for a 1.4 Locost. Maybe its a stupid dream, and everyone keeps telling me to "get back into the real world", maybe I should listen to them...
I'm sure a mag recently put a Clio up against a 575 and they were very evenly matched in real-world conditions. Having had a Williams in the dim and distant past I reckon that's a pretty fair. It's flawed but oh so chuckable, and very safe. And i've driven a 996tt too - very, very grippy, but perhaps not as nimble as it could be - it's quite heavy you know.
My guess is a light, powerful fwd hatch. Or something a little lighter and less fat-tyred than a 996tt - Integrale or 997C4? The new 997 did heroically thrash the Aston V8 & M6 on TopGear a few weeks back ..
Are we including motorways/a-roads in this trip? Or just twisty backroads?
My guess is a light, powerful fwd hatch. Or something a little lighter and less fat-tyred than a 996tt - Integrale or 997C4? The new 997 did heroically thrash the Aston V8 & M6 on TopGear a few weeks back ..
Are we including motorways/a-roads in this trip? Or just twisty backroads?
futie said:
Are we including motorways/a-roads in this trip? Or just twisty backroads?
I think you have hit on the main problem there.
There is no exact definition by what we are judging here, the main factors seem to be getting from point a to point b in inclement conditions as fast as possible. Basically, thats a rally stage for all intents and purposes.
I am tending to add comfort, motorway and city ability, reliability, practicality, cost and running cost in my mind as important characteristics as these are all important considerations for a road car, though the original poster didn't make it clear whether or not that was the intention in the original post. The inclusion or exclusion of those factors really changes the outcome because thinly disguised rally cars can't compete on practicality and road cars like a 996 turbo can't compete on sheer point to point speed.
I'm a little surprised by the number of people suggesting the (holy) 'Grale. sure they're great cars, but as far as performance and actual driving goes they're generally considered to be well outclassed by STi/Evo's etc. just newer developments of the same principle really.
I think it could be quite close between a good STi or Evo rally-rep and the 996 or 997 TT. the Porsche is faster no doubt, much better on more open stuff maybe not quite so good in the tighter bits due to extra weight (996TT ~1500kg, classic shape STi-RA ~1200kg). but the rally-reps probably have better vision, and the fact that they're worth so much less might make you likely to push them a bit harder.
for true 'greatest' point-to-point car I'd still go with the Porsche 911TT for the sheer class it does it with, but a rally-rep could still be quicker in a fair few situations. (
the 295's on the back of the 996 would be too wide to cut into loose gravel well for a start....)
I think it could be quite close between a good STi or Evo rally-rep and the 996 or 997 TT. the Porsche is faster no doubt, much better on more open stuff maybe not quite so good in the tighter bits due to extra weight (996TT ~1500kg, classic shape STi-RA ~1200kg). but the rally-reps probably have better vision, and the fact that they're worth so much less might make you likely to push them a bit harder.
for true 'greatest' point-to-point car I'd still go with the Porsche 911TT for the sheer class it does it with, but a rally-rep could still be quicker in a fair few situations. (
the 295's on the back of the 996 would be too wide to cut into loose gravel well for a start....)Best all round = Ruf turbo, 993 turbo 4 etc
But in my oppinion the conversation ended at the point where the Audi S1 was mentioned. Anyone who can watch the pikes peak clip at the end of the rally legends program on the audi channel and then say there is more to life obviously isn't worth listening to.
The noise and speed of that car IS better than sex.
But in my oppinion the conversation ended at the point where the Audi S1 was mentioned. Anyone who can watch the pikes peak clip at the end of the rally legends program on the audi channel and then say there is more to life obviously isn't worth listening to.
The noise and speed of that car IS better than sex.
I'd like to nominate my car A Jag S-Type R. With 400bhp it is no slouch, but here is the critical bit for a point to point:
People let you out, and they pull over for you.
Very few of the cars previously mentioned on this thread would enable you to do this, least of all a Porsche or Evo...
People let you out, and they pull over for you.
Very few of the cars previously mentioned on this thread would enable you to do this, least of all a Porsche or Evo...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The Jag is a competent piece of kit, no doubt, I should know, but after the last few weeks here, RWD and snow DO NOT mix, winter tyres or not.....
Once it gets hilly the read wheels will be spinning, or the traction control will engage and perhaps get you up at a snails pace...while you get overtaken by 993tts!
GravelBen said:
I'm a little surprised by the number of people suggesting the (holy) 'Grale. sure they're great cars, but as far as performance and actual driving goes they're generally considered to be well outclassed by STi/Evo's etc. just newer developments of the same principle really.
It seems, like cream, the word "Integrale" keeps rising to the top
As far as the Integrale is concerned, time has moved on. There was a test on fifth gear a while back with one and an E30 M3. The lap times were well down on the Evo. Along the same lines, apparently the 993 T4 is quicker on real roads than a 959.
The mix of roads does come into it. A couple of years back I drove over to Blackpool in my Tuscan with a friend in a V6 4wd Golf (can't remember which one) Neither of us are the world's best driver and whilst on the open A roads I could obviously leave the Golf for dead, when it came to the bumpy windy B roads the Golf could keep up. The Golf driver knew he could rely on the 4wd and stability control to get him round whereas I couldn't.
My vote would be the 997TT.
The mix of roads does come into it. A couple of years back I drove over to Blackpool in my Tuscan with a friend in a V6 4wd Golf (can't remember which one) Neither of us are the world's best driver and whilst on the open A roads I could obviously leave the Golf for dead, when it came to the bumpy windy B roads the Golf could keep up. The Golf driver knew he could rely on the 4wd and stability control to get him round whereas I couldn't.
My vote would be the 997TT.
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