RE: Melling's Hellcat has surfaced
Discussion
Parrot of Doom said:
How many people here build engines and try to release supercars?
None. But then none of us CLAIM to be an expert who can produce a faster car than the Bug Veyron on a comparative shoestring budget.
Equally, many of us as punters ARE qualified to comment on the looks of the car, and as people with some mechanical knowledge (in or out of the industry) to be skeptical of both the power claims and the likely handling ability (AM DID, after all, say "I've not really bothered about chassis and things, they're just there to carry my bloody engine."
. If it works, and handles, and goes ANYWHERE near the claims, we will all be impressed. But like all other start-up Brit supercar manufacturers, they're going to need to show some substance before they'll get taken seriously.
I’m sitting thinking after read the Al Melling Hellcats threads, and can’t help but think that Al is missing a great opportunity here. Yes if the Hellcat does come to fruition and is a world super car beater brilliant, and wow besides me to critise the man but I do think he’s running before he can walk.
With the almost certain demises of TVR
Melling has a great opportunity to pick up TVRs niche market here.
After all he was heavily involve with the company and arguably helped create the greatest car TVR ever produces in the AJP V8 Cerbera.
He already has offered an updated and modern AJP V8.
The Hellcat has the same basic design principles as a TVR (tubular space frame with composite body shell)
It sounds as if he has the facilities in place already to build cars.
All he needs to do is design a car in the price bracket of recent TVRs (preferably a different designer to the one that penciled the Hellcat).
Hes a great campainer and champion of our great british sports car heritage.
But most of all it would be an all british sports car.
Just a thought.
With the almost certain demises of TVR
Melling has a great opportunity to pick up TVRs niche market here. After all he was heavily involve with the company and arguably helped create the greatest car TVR ever produces in the AJP V8 Cerbera.
He already has offered an updated and modern AJP V8.
The Hellcat has the same basic design principles as a TVR (tubular space frame with composite body shell)
It sounds as if he has the facilities in place already to build cars.
All he needs to do is design a car in the price bracket of recent TVRs (preferably a different designer to the one that penciled the Hellcat).
Hes a great campainer and champion of our great british sports car heritage.
But most of all it would be an all british sports car.
Just a thought.
Edited by zooooom on Wednesday 31st January 15:54
60-70k car, built in Britian with the new 5.0 engine, 580 bhp. 
havoc said:
Parrot of Doom said:
How many people here build engines and try to release supercars?
None. But then none of us CLAIM to be an expert who can produce a faster car than the Bug Veyron on a comparative shoestring budget.
Equally, many of us as punters ARE qualified to comment on the looks of the car, and as people with some mechanical knowledge (in or out of the industry) to be skeptical of both the power claims and the likely handling ability (AM DID, after all, say "I've not really bothered about chassis and things, they're just there to carry my bloody engine."
. If it works, and handles, and goes ANYWHERE near the claims, we will all be impressed. But like all other start-up Brit supercar manufacturers, they're going to need to show some substance before they'll get taken seriously.
Thats exactly the kind of balanced opinion thats otherwise missing from this thread.
Here are some more pictures. I think it looks very nice, and I wish Mr Melling every bit of luck in his venture. I just wish people would give him the benefit of the doubt. Unless they'd all like more cars like the MGB? No? Thought not.
www.carmagazine.co.uk/first_official_picture.php?sid=434&page=1
Edited by Parrot of Doom on Wednesday 31st January 17:18
I don't agree with this idea that projects like this should be supported just because they're British. Why should it be somehow unpatriotic to voice a negative opinion? People aren't saying it looks awful because they're unpatriotic, they're saying it looks awful simply because they believe it looks awful.
If it turns out to be good, then by all means offer support but judging by the outcome of similar projects in the past, I don't think people can be blamed for voicing a negative opinion.
The last think anyone should be doing is encouraging the development of a Lister Storm for the 21st century. Supporting any old dross on the basis that it's British is surely misguided because it encourages half-arsed development. Wouldn't rigorous criticism ensure a better end product?
If it turns out to be good, then by all means offer support but judging by the outcome of similar projects in the past, I don't think people can be blamed for voicing a negative opinion.
The last think anyone should be doing is encouraging the development of a Lister Storm for the 21st century. Supporting any old dross on the basis that it's British is surely misguided because it encourages half-arsed development. Wouldn't rigorous criticism ensure a better end product?
Edited by risotto on Wednesday 31st January 17:34
GTWayne said:
It is not what the Englishman is doing (like it or not) but the fact that an Englishman is doing something, surely that deserves support from fellow countrymen?
No.
I'm not a jingoist, and I'll only be patriotic where I believe in what's being done. In this case if it's good I'll applaud him; if it's not it won't matter what I do/say, as it'll be going down the tubes just as quick as all the other start-up-just-to-fail UK car companies.
First impressions are that the spec sheet looks a lot better than the flesh!
beetroute said:
Engineering cars is actually a bit tricky. Please don't waste space on drivel from marketing suits like this. When the thing moves reliably, let's hear about it: until then, stick to Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc who've been there, done it and even got some of the T-shirts.
Strange that, you have mentioned the subject which I once personally talked to Al Melling about. The impression I got was certainly not that he is a marketing suit in any conventional sense of the phrase. Having said that, by common definition of marketing, he does it very well - if you truly understand what marketing means.
carmagazineonline said:
Melling told CAR Online that the project was not about profit. By his own admission, he is really semi-retired. Already a veteran of 38 different engines, designing the Hellcat is the fulfilment of a personal dream rather than a commercial one, he says.
Melling is a veteran of the British sports car scene and made his name at Lola and TVR – and even bid as part of a consortium to buy Rolls-Royce in 1998. He calls that moment as ‘very, very sad indeed’ and has spent the past nine years working on the Hellcat.
For those who say Al Melling has never made anything that works, why do you think companies continue to use his services?
From all the shit that's been thrown around on the TVR forums relating to Melling, and the stuff that's here, my gut instinct is that he's a genius designer that produces concepts that have *monster* potential and are just 'designed right'.....
....but require development to eradicate the bugs and result in a great engine.
The TVR speed six is probably a different situation given the 'modifications' to the original design, but even so this was a small company that didn't have the resources to develop the bugs out of the original design, thus 'Melling's engine' was always going to receive a bad press, unless it was *perfect* out of the box.
I'm not an automotive engineer but a systems architect and I firmly believe that even the best designs from the best architects require development to remove bugs and ensure great reliability. You can't polish a turd, so a badly designed system will always be a bugger to run, but no system is 100% perfect out of the box since bugs can become visible from dynamic situations not predictable by the architect.
Even Foster's Gherkin in the City suffers from odd behaviour with heavy rain (dripping not from where the architect originally intended, but onto people below - something to do with the Coanda effect IIRC).
So presumably the designs Melling did for major manufacturers, who have the development resources to refine the original design and debug any issues found, are now the reliable engines we see in modern cars. Judging the guy on the Speed Six and engines that never reached production is like judging a systems architect on some prototype that was never released into full production... whereas the system with 5 9s availability that costs nothing to support is what should judge the architect.
Since the work Melling did for major manufacturers will never be known by the public domain due to NDA, all we have to judge him is the non-developed stuff. Therefore most of the opinions here about his worthiness as an engine designer are worthless bullshit IMO.
....but require development to eradicate the bugs and result in a great engine.
The TVR speed six is probably a different situation given the 'modifications' to the original design, but even so this was a small company that didn't have the resources to develop the bugs out of the original design, thus 'Melling's engine' was always going to receive a bad press, unless it was *perfect* out of the box.
I'm not an automotive engineer but a systems architect and I firmly believe that even the best designs from the best architects require development to remove bugs and ensure great reliability. You can't polish a turd, so a badly designed system will always be a bugger to run, but no system is 100% perfect out of the box since bugs can become visible from dynamic situations not predictable by the architect.
Even Foster's Gherkin in the City suffers from odd behaviour with heavy rain (dripping not from where the architect originally intended, but onto people below - something to do with the Coanda effect IIRC).
So presumably the designs Melling did for major manufacturers, who have the development resources to refine the original design and debug any issues found, are now the reliable engines we see in modern cars. Judging the guy on the Speed Six and engines that never reached production is like judging a systems architect on some prototype that was never released into full production... whereas the system with 5 9s availability that costs nothing to support is what should judge the architect.
Since the work Melling did for major manufacturers will never be known by the public domain due to NDA, all we have to judge him is the non-developed stuff. Therefore most of the opinions here about his worthiness as an engine designer are worthless bullshit IMO.
Whenever anyone puts a pile of money on the line and tries to build a new supercar, the opinions at PH are that it'll immediately fail, and even if it doesn't, it's hideous, anyway. Secondly, any time that Al Melling's name pops up, the standard comments are that he designs engines that break, and that he's fat. For reasons I'm not sure I even understand, however, I still read the comments following the articles here.
Is it too much to ask to give the guy a chance? I, for one, think it's refreshing that there's a new name in supercars on the scene. I also like the fact that it's one of a small group of front-engined supercars. A car's looks are not only very subjective but also irrelevant to the driving experience, and yet so many of the supposedly hard-core car enthusiasts here judge a car based almost solely on them. While I think that a good car being good looking is a nice bonus, I subscribe to the late LJK Setright's theory that a car's looks are irrelevant because you can't see what it looks like when you're driving it. I wouldn't decide not to buy a car I liked driving solely because it wasn't good looking, and conversely, I'd never buy a good-looking car if I didn't like driving it.
The funny thing, though, is that I do like the looks of the Hellcat. It's the kind of car that could make me proud of being British... even though I'm not British.
That said, if a child did design it, I'm sure that neither he nor his peers would've made as many fat jokes as some of you here. As for the huge risk of such a project failing, I'm sure that Al Melling and all the others who have come before him (regardless of whether they built supercars or mere transportation devices) understand these risks, yet they still take them, and we are all better off for it. If they did not, we'd all be driving the same cars as the Amish.
Miguel
Is it too much to ask to give the guy a chance? I, for one, think it's refreshing that there's a new name in supercars on the scene. I also like the fact that it's one of a small group of front-engined supercars. A car's looks are not only very subjective but also irrelevant to the driving experience, and yet so many of the supposedly hard-core car enthusiasts here judge a car based almost solely on them. While I think that a good car being good looking is a nice bonus, I subscribe to the late LJK Setright's theory that a car's looks are irrelevant because you can't see what it looks like when you're driving it. I wouldn't decide not to buy a car I liked driving solely because it wasn't good looking, and conversely, I'd never buy a good-looking car if I didn't like driving it.
The funny thing, though, is that I do like the looks of the Hellcat. It's the kind of car that could make me proud of being British... even though I'm not British.
That said, if a child did design it, I'm sure that neither he nor his peers would've made as many fat jokes as some of you here. As for the huge risk of such a project failing, I'm sure that Al Melling and all the others who have come before him (regardless of whether they built supercars or mere transportation devices) understand these risks, yet they still take them, and we are all better off for it. If they did not, we'd all be driving the same cars as the Amish. Miguel
GTWayne said:
It is not what the Englishman is doing (like it or not) but the fact that an Englishman is doing something, surely that deserves support from fellow countrymen?
Not really. People should applaud potential world beating efforts, but this one has so little potential there's no point in bothering.
[QUOTE]Oh dear....That wouldn't be the same Al Melling who did a V8 engine foe the Norton Nemesis hyperbike that was going to relaunch Norton back in the '90s would it ?
There are some worrying similarities - ignoring the fact that Honda, Kawasaki, Ducati et al had had a spot of practise at this sort of thing the Norton claimed more power than all the other established manufacturers.....the Norton was going to go much faster than all the other established manufacturers....the Norton was about eight feet longer than bikes from all the other established manufacturers (and pig-ugly)....and after a few bike show appearances and a load of hot air the Norton vanished up its own back passage[/QUOTE]
Do you know the reason that the Norton was never made? It had nothing to do with the bike, in fact some of them were sold. It was to do with the backing of the company. Styling is all a personal thing, but the geomerty of the bike was no different to any other bike of that era. The bike did produce more power than anything that is available even today ( Ducati Desmosedici included).
There are some worrying similarities - ignoring the fact that Honda, Kawasaki, Ducati et al had had a spot of practise at this sort of thing the Norton claimed more power than all the other established manufacturers.....the Norton was going to go much faster than all the other established manufacturers....the Norton was about eight feet longer than bikes from all the other established manufacturers (and pig-ugly)....and after a few bike show appearances and a load of hot air the Norton vanished up its own back passage[/QUOTE]
Do you know the reason that the Norton was never made? It had nothing to do with the bike, in fact some of them were sold. It was to do with the backing of the company. Styling is all a personal thing, but the geomerty of the bike was no different to any other bike of that era. The bike did produce more power than anything that is available even today ( Ducati Desmosedici included).
GavinPearson said:
GTWayne said:
It is not what the Englishman is doing (like it or not) but the fact that an Englishman is doing something, surely that deserves support from fellow countrymen?
Not really. People should applaud potential world beating efforts, but this one has so little potential there's no point in bothering.
Work there, do you?
I don't work for Melling and wouldn't want to.
I understand he's had sme success in the fields of car racing and bike engines, and all credit to him, he must be pretty good at that.
But designing a reliable engine that is able to meet emissions is an altogether different matter and really don't think too highly of the engines Melling has made for TVR.
In the case of a high performance car it needs the engine to be behind the driver and in front of the rear wheels.
That point was clearly lost on the designers of this car. So it won't function particularly well and as it is pretty ugly I really can't see it selling.
I understand he's had sme success in the fields of car racing and bike engines, and all credit to him, he must be pretty good at that.
But designing a reliable engine that is able to meet emissions is an altogether different matter and really don't think too highly of the engines Melling has made for TVR.
In the case of a high performance car it needs the engine to be behind the driver and in front of the rear wheels.
That point was clearly lost on the designers of this car. So it won't function particularly well and as it is pretty ugly I really can't see it selling.
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