Help-valve through cylinder after 400miles....
Discussion
billflin said:
richburley said:
m3mth said:
he brought the car as a tradesale, not wanting a warranty or anything. would you go in to p.c world and ask to buy a computer without a warranty for a cheaper price..?? no, didnt think so.
Nope, you are WRONG, with a capital WRONG. He didn't go up to the salesman and say "I'd like to buy a car, but I want you to sell me it as a Trade sale, so that I have absolutely no comeback, although you know full well that I am not a trader." Saying "Trade sale" and then selling to individuals is not a "get out of jail free card"; it means nothing, if the salesman sells to an individual. It's just an attempt by a dodgy salesman to try and dodge responsibility for selling a car, which he knows has to, by law, come with at least a 3 month warranty. Therefore, fortunately, the OP guy does have rights, when the supposedly nice Audi goes wrong, and he should be able to have a free complete repair.
Rich, very interesting - thank you. But does that mean that I, as a private punter, can then go up to a dealer, offer them trade money, agree a trade sale and then have exactly the same rights as a retail customer who pays retail money? And if so, why does anyone pay retail money?
And how do you differentiate between Joe Bloggs trading as Joe Bloggs (Motors) and Joe Bloggs himself?
billflin said:
richburley said:
m3mth said:
he brought the car as a tradesale, not wanting a warranty or anything. would you go in to p.c world and ask to buy a computer without a warranty for a cheaper price..?? no, didnt think so.
Nope, you are WRONG, with a capital WRONG. He didn't go up to the salesman and say "I'd like to buy a car, but I want you to sell me it as a Trade sale, so that I have absolutely no comeback, although you know full well that I am not a trader." Saying "Trade sale" and then selling to individuals is not a "get out of jail free card"; it means nothing, if the salesman sells to an individual. It's just an attempt by a dodgy salesman to try and dodge responsibility for selling a car, which he knows has to, by law, come with at least a 3 month warranty. Therefore, fortunately, the OP guy does have rights, when the supposedly nice Audi goes wrong, and he should be able to have a free complete repair.
Rich, very interesting - thank you. But does that mean that I, as a private punter, can then go up to a dealer, offer them trade money, agree a trade sale and then have exactly the same rights as a retail customer who pays retail money? And if so, why does anyone pay retail money?
I think the first question has to be "what is TRADE money"?
The next point is that there is nothing to suggest that you are a trader, so he could call it a "Golden sale", but there's nothing golden about the sale, and just saying it, doesn't make it so. The use of the word "Trade" isn't important, it's the actual specifics of the parties which is important.
The next point is "Did you actually pay a trade price? If so, then how much cheaper than a normal retail sale was it? £200? £2,000???
Im not for 1 minute enjoying his misfortune at all, its very unlucky for him. my point is that you dont see every car trader that brought a dealer part exchange,then take it back because there was something wrong with it do you?! its now down to the trader as they own the car!. buying a car like that without warranty is a big risk in my opinion.
Calorus said:
AlastairM said:
yes, i have the original advert which specifically states full audi service history and it turns out it only has part audi service history. At the end of the day i may have purchased on a trade sale but that does not make my statutory rights invalid. What i'm after from you guys is a way to approach this in order to get the best outcome, not 'tough luck better luck next time. I only purchase the car 3 weeks ago and have done less than 400 motorway miles.
I don;t think thaere's anything you can do, except price an engine, price a solicitor, and go from there. Personally as a trader to someone who bought from me at trade - especiallly with something that he can say - "I gave hime the logbook, and pointed out the error, he accepted this and agreed the deal", because you can't prove you didn't as you saw the book before you had the failure. It's a pisser, but I suspect some ARP and JH cylinder furniture and a rebore would be the a) cheapest and b) most fun method of dealing with it.
Although I must say that I agree with Calorus; the onus is on you to check SH etc first, and you can't reject the car at this stage, just because you have now seen it is not complete SH; that's not an option now; repair is the best bet...
m3mth said:
he brought the car as a tradesale, not wanting a warranty or anything. would you go in to p.c world and ask to buy a computer without a warranty for a cheaper price..?? no, didnt think so.
Yes because i know i would be covered by my statuatory rights and as such i don't see the point in paying extra for something that is covered by law
Calorus said:
Silent1 said:
m3mth said:
well buying a car the proper way would save him half the hassle though, and peace of mind.
What? how has he not bought it properly? he went to a dealer handed over a substantial amount of money for a car and it return received a car, how was he supposed to know it was a lemon?
Erm, I'm confused, surely if he's bought it trade, he will have a receipt which clearly states sold as seen.
Otherwise it would be impossible for any Member of the Public to buy a car as "Spares or Repair" without the dealer being at risk from them coming straight, back. I personally think the dealer should be safe, I mean the fact that the dealer sold it as trade is a glaring "I do not endorse this car, I do not think this car car is up to my standards, as a dealer. I will not be responsible for this car."
It's a shame, for sure, but if you buy something as a trader I think it's honorable to take responsabilty for it as a trader.
If you read the link, specifically paragraph 3
Trading Standards said:
When you buy as a consumer from a motor trader, your legal rights under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 cannot be taken away or reduced. An example of an attempt to do so is a notice such as ‘sold as seen’. Such phrases are meaningless and cannot alter your rights. If you see a sign of this type, report it to Consumer Direct on 08454 040506. A warranty or guarantee can only be given in addition to your legal rights, not instead of them. You can take legal action under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 for up to six years after the date of the contract, but it is unrealistic to consider legal action for defects on used cars – especially older vehicles – once you have had them in use for a reasonable length of time. Each case is different, so it is best to take advice before you decide what to do.
That states that it isn't legal to state sold as seen and as such a dealer giving 'discount' in return for no warranty is complete and utter rubbish and they have no recourse.
Writing on the receipt means nothing in legal terms you could argue it's immoral but that's an entirely different matter
richburley said:
billflin said:
richburley said:
m3mth said:
he brought the car as a tradesale, not wanting a warranty or anything. would you go in to p.c world and ask to buy a computer without a warranty for a cheaper price..?? no, didnt think so.
Nope, you are WRONG, with a capital WRONG. He didn't go up to the salesman and say "I'd like to buy a car, but I want you to sell me it as a Trade sale, so that I have absolutely no comeback, although you know full well that I am not a trader." Saying "Trade sale" and then selling to individuals is not a "get out of jail free card"; it means nothing, if the salesman sells to an individual. It's just an attempt by a dodgy salesman to try and dodge responsibility for selling a car, which he knows has to, by law, come with at least a 3 month warranty. Therefore, fortunately, the OP guy does have rights, when the supposedly nice Audi goes wrong, and he should be able to have a free complete repair.
Rich, very interesting - thank you. But does that mean that I, as a private punter, can then go up to a dealer, offer them trade money, agree a trade sale and then have exactly the same rights as a retail customer who pays retail money? And if so, why does anyone pay retail money?
I think the first question has to be "what is TRADE money"?
The next point is that there is nothing to suggest that you are a trader, so he could call it a "Golden sale", but there's nothing golden about the sale, and just saying it, doesn't make it so. The use of the word "Trade" isn't important, it's the actual specifics of the parties which is important.
The next point is "Did you actually pay a trade price? If so, then how much cheaper than a normal retail sale was it? £200? £2,000???
Ok, I understand - in the same way a lease is a lease even if you call it a licence. So, in theory, if you went to a dealer, offered them trade 'book' price, took the car 'as is' (i.e. without any retail prep) then you would be excluding your rights whether or not it was called a 'trade' sale? Or would you have to by buying it to 'trade' it? And how would the dealer be sure you were going to then trade it - would he be liable for the car until you actually became a 'trader' and 'traded' it?
Calorus said:
And how do you differentiate between Joe Bloggs trading as Joe Bloggs (Motors) and Joe Bloggs himself?
Without being pedantic, you ask/tell him! (You shouldn't shy away from the issue; I mean, it shouldn't be a secret, should it? If it is, then that's groudns for arguing that the "Trade Sale" is a smokescreen for shifting (potentiall) dodgy car.
You are express about it. You say "Joe, I know you are a trader, and I'm selling this to you as a trade sale".
You write "Trade sale" on the invoice.
You can't just do nothing...
AlastairM said:
...i've done less than 400 miles since i purchased an Audi S8 2000 model (75k miles full Audi S/H)and it's managed to break a bit off the valve which then went down with the piston and on the way back up smashed into the hydraulic tappet and then out of the cylinder block! I purchased this car from a dealer on the 17th Jan but as a trade sale ie no warranty. Where do i stand as i still have my statatory rights even though i took the car with no warranty. Yes it has had it's cambelt change @Audi along with the waterpump etc.
the garage that sold it said they MAY contribute but i want to know my rights-i assume i can't reject the car?
the garage that sold it said they MAY contribute but i want to know my rights-i assume i can't reject the car?
Sorry to hear about your car Alastair.
I worked for the trading standards for a while in the early 1990's and as stated elsewhere
your car is not fit for purpose. 400 miles is not reasonable.
It may come down to working out a deal with the dealer to resolve this quickly.
Try the Citizens advice bureau and Trading Standards for advice.
billflin said:
richburley said:
billflin said:
richburley said:
m3mth said:
he brought the car as a tradesale, not wanting a warranty or anything. would you go in to p.c world and ask to buy a computer without a warranty for a cheaper price..?? no, didnt think so.
Nope, you are WRONG, with a capital WRONG. He didn't go up to the salesman and say "I'd like to buy a car, but I want you to sell me it as a Trade sale, so that I have absolutely no comeback, although you know full well that I am not a trader." Saying "Trade sale" and then selling to individuals is not a "get out of jail free card"; it means nothing, if the salesman sells to an individual. It's just an attempt by a dodgy salesman to try and dodge responsibility for selling a car, which he knows has to, by law, come with at least a 3 month warranty. Therefore, fortunately, the OP guy does have rights, when the supposedly nice Audi goes wrong, and he should be able to have a free complete repair.
Rich, very interesting - thank you. But does that mean that I, as a private punter, can then go up to a dealer, offer them trade money, agree a trade sale and then have exactly the same rights as a retail customer who pays retail money? And if so, why does anyone pay retail money?
I think the first question has to be "what is TRADE money"?
The next point is that there is nothing to suggest that you are a trader, so he could call it a "Golden sale", but there's nothing golden about the sale, and just saying it, doesn't make it so. The use of the word "Trade" isn't important, it's the actual specifics of the parties which is important.
The next point is "Did you actually pay a trade price? If so, then how much cheaper than a normal retail sale was it? £200? £2,000???
Ok, I understand - in the same way a lease is a lease even if you call it a licence. So, in theory, if you went to a dealer, offered them trade 'book' price, took the car 'as is' (i.e. without any retail prep) then you would be excluding your rights whether or not it was called a 'trade' sale? Or would you have to by buying it to 'trade' it? And how would the dealer be sure you were going to then trade it - would he be liable for the car until you actually became a 'trader' and 'traded' it?
No, I mean the opposite! i.e. it would be deemed a private sale, unless proven to be trade, even if it was bought at a "trade" price...
YES BUT :
"When you buy as a CONSUMER from a motor trader"
By accepting the terms 'Trade Sale' he accepts that he bought it on Trade terms and it not a comsumer but a trader.
HOWEVER - judges tend to take a dim view on trade outlets obviously selling to private punters in this way...
BUT at the same time tha kind of fault you describe is not one the trader could have reasonably known about...
I'd guess 50 / 50 is fair.
"When you buy as a CONSUMER from a motor trader"
By accepting the terms 'Trade Sale' he accepts that he bought it on Trade terms and it not a comsumer but a trader.
HOWEVER - judges tend to take a dim view on trade outlets obviously selling to private punters in this way...
BUT at the same time tha kind of fault you describe is not one the trader could have reasonably known about...
I'd guess 50 / 50 is fair.
So the best thing to do is not accept a car as 'trade' unless you are a trader, and for a dealer to refuse to discount a car to trade price for a 'consumer'. Which is a shame for those of us who like to save a few quid and take a larger gamble by buying cars 'trade'. At the end of the day, if you pay less you should get less, if that isn't acceptable pay full retail or walk away.
Of course if the dealer has been fraudulent, that is another matter entirely.
Of course if the dealer has been fraudulent, that is another matter entirely.
richburley said:
billflin said:
richburley said:
billflin said:
richburley said:
m3mth said:
he brought the car as a tradesale, not wanting a warranty or anything. would you go in to p.c world and ask to buy a computer without a warranty for a cheaper price..?? no, didnt think so.
Nope, you are WRONG, with a capital WRONG. He didn't go up to the salesman and say "I'd like to buy a car, but I want you to sell me it as a Trade sale, so that I have absolutely no comeback, although you know full well that I am not a trader." Saying "Trade sale" and then selling to individuals is not a "get out of jail free card"; it means nothing, if the salesman sells to an individual. It's just an attempt by a dodgy salesman to try and dodge responsibility for selling a car, which he knows has to, by law, come with at least a 3 month warranty. Therefore, fortunately, the OP guy does have rights, when the supposedly nice Audi goes wrong, and he should be able to have a free complete repair.
Rich, very interesting - thank you. But does that mean that I, as a private punter, can then go up to a dealer, offer them trade money, agree a trade sale and then have exactly the same rights as a retail customer who pays retail money? And if so, why does anyone pay retail money?
I think the first question has to be "what is TRADE money"?
The next point is that there is nothing to suggest that you are a trader, so he could call it a "Golden sale", but there's nothing golden about the sale, and just saying it, doesn't make it so. The use of the word "Trade" isn't important, it's the actual specifics of the parties which is important.
The next point is "Did you actually pay a trade price? If so, then how much cheaper than a normal retail sale was it? £200? £2,000???
Ok, I understand - in the same way a lease is a lease even if you call it a licence. So, in theory, if you went to a dealer, offered them trade 'book' price, took the car 'as is' (i.e. without any retail prep) then you would be excluding your rights whether or not it was called a 'trade' sale? Or would you have to by buying it to 'trade' it? And how would the dealer be sure you were going to then trade it - would he be liable for the car until you actually became a 'trader' and 'traded' it?
No, I mean the opposite! i.e. it would be deemed a private sale, unless proven to be trade, even if it was bought at a "trade" price...
Understood - very interesting.
It does then beg the question why a dealer would ever discount a car to trade price when he still remains liable for it under consumer law.
Edited by billflin on Thursday 8th February 17:36
Silent1 said:
That states that it isn't legal to state sold as seen and as such a dealer giving 'discount' in return for no warranty is complete and utter rubbish and they have no recourse.
Writing on the receipt means nothing in legal terms you could argue it's immoral but that's an entirely different matter
Fair enough. Well, sort of. I don't like to see unfortunate things happening to people, but I must admit this smacks of Americanesque litgiousness. I think the phrase is my word is my bond. I'd still personally cut my losses get the block honed and the valves, rods & piston replaced and have more fun.
But it's to him to work out how much he wants to gamble on the letter of the law versus the spirit. I don't think the onus should be on a seller to verify a purchaser's credentials i think anyone pretending to be motor trade should be treated as motor trade - I mean, many motor traders are Sole Proprietors so there's a lot of potential for problems if the can plead "public!"
richburley said:
Calorus said:
And how do you differentiate between Joe Bloggs trading as Joe Bloggs (Motors) and Joe Bloggs himself?
Without being pedantic, you ask/tell him! (You shouldn't shy away from the issue; I mean, it shouldn't be a secret, should it? If it is, then that's groudns for arguing that the "Trade Sale" is a smokescreen for shifting (potentiall) dodgy car.
You are express about it. You say "Joe, I know you are a trader, and I'm selling this to you as a trade sale".
You write "Trade sale" on the invoice.
You can't just do nothing...
And that's my problem, did Joe Bloggs become a trader when he BOUGHT his first car or when he SOLD his first car, or when he conciously decide to trade cars?
Calorus said:
Silent1 said:
That states that it isn't legal to state sold as seen and as such a dealer giving 'discount' in return for no warranty is complete and utter rubbish and they have no recourse.
Writing on the receipt means nothing in legal terms you could argue it's immoral but that's an entirely different matter
Fair enough. Well, sort of. I don't like to see unfortunate things happening to people, but I must admit this smacks of Americanesque litgiousness. I think the phrase is my word is my bond. I'd still personally cut my losses get the block honed and the valves, rods & piston replaced and have more fun.
But it's to him to work out how much he wants to gamble on the letter of the law versus the spirit. I don't think the onus should be on a seller to verify a purchaser's credentials i think anyone pretending to be motor trade should be treated as motor trade - I mean, many motor traders are Sole Proprietors so there's a lot of potential for problems if the can plead "public!"
I agree with you on this one Calorus - if you accept a trade deal for a trade price then you should expect to be treated like the trade - sold as seen and no comeback. If you want retail warranty pay retail money.
However I do empathise with the OP, especially if he has been deceived. There is no worse feeling than when something horrendous happens to your new toy.
Edited by billflin on Thursday 8th February 17:49
the car was advertised @ XXXXX and when i called i natrually asked what his bottom line was. It was then that he said he would do it for XXXXX and said that it would be without a warranty but did not say or tell me what that implied to myself as a consumer. Yes, perhaps i was a little naive but looking back on it he should have clearly told me what the options were.
I would imagine that the car was destined for somewher elik ethe local auction rooms. But since he got a bite (from you) decided to sell it to you.
Since you've purchased from a trader you still have statutory rights. 400 miles, as others have pointed out, is not reasonable.
Go get 'im.
Since you've purchased from a trader you still have statutory rights. 400 miles, as others have pointed out, is not reasonable.
Go get 'im.
AlastairM said:
the car was advertised @ XXXXX and when i called i natrually asked what his bottom line was. It was then that he said he would do it for XXXXX and said that it would be without a warranty but did not say or tell me what that implied to myself as a consumer. Yes, perhaps i was a little naive but looking back on it he should have clearly told me what the options were.
Genuinely, every commiseration, but you have 2 options:
a) Solicitor
b) Repair
Obviously you're not here for a lesson on morality, but it's upt to you to price the two and remeber that a) is a gamble, and that it could be much more or much less. b) On the other hand is a price and would make you car more enjoyable, too.
Your statutory rights are just that, statutory, they cannot be waived or removed, whether a disclaimer such as 'trade sale, sold as seen, no warranty given or implied' is written into the contract or not.
If a dealer sells a car cheap to a MOP, its still retail, not trade, even if both parties have agreed it is a trade sale at trade money, and written it on the contract, it still isnt.
If a dealer sells a car cheap to a MOP, its still retail, not trade, even if both parties have agreed it is a trade sale at trade money, and written it on the contract, it still isnt.
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