Help-valve through cylinder after 400miles....

[richburley]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You can only sell on a "Trade" basis, if you are selling to trade. The law is clear on this. If you are selling to a consumer, you cannot exclude statutory rights, to fitness of purpose and I refer to the answer to question 1 www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page9010.html in that regard.

HTH

[richburley]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

He does indeed; one for customers, and one for traders.

n.b. Trading Standards are not judges, they just provide guidance, and take prosecutions. Their guidance that cars can be sold on a Trade basis is correct; but you can't sell on a trade basis, to customers.

[redgriff500]

'You can only sell on a "Trade" basis, if you are selling to trade'

That is the point, to buy at 'trade' prices you ARE claiming to be 'trade'

Although if you refer to my previous posts you will see that this frequently doesn't hold in court.

[rallycross]

When the deal was done what did you think trade sale meant?

I am sure most people on here have a fair idea of what is meant by a trade sale.

Did the invoice say no guarantee given or implied?

And 400 miles is not a lot, but for arguments sake in that 400 miles you could have driven to a track, done a days track driving and driven home.

[ATG]

redgriff500 said:

No it isn't you are either a TRADER or a CONSUMER you cannot be both.

In fact the garage could theorectically sue him for misrepresentation as he signed saying he was a trader when he wasn't.

If you are correct then Auction houses couldn't run... as they offer NO warrenty, nor in many cases even a test drive... yet they do BECAUSE THEY ARE TRADE ONLY !

Please paste the relevent part where the words are 'Trader' rather than 'consumer'

Edited by redgriff500 on Friday 9th February 13:11

This has nothing at all to do with auctions. They have their own rules.

Second hand goods can be sold at auction without giving the purchaser statutory protection under the Sale of Goods Act if the consumer has the opportunity to be present at the auction and has been informed in advance that he isn't getting protection from the Sales of Goods Act (e.g. it says Sold as Seen somewhere obvious) and the auctioneer can show that it is reasonable to sell the goods in that manner.

[bimsb6]

rallycross said:

When the deal was done what did you think trade sale meant?

I am sure most people on here have a fair idea of what is meant by a trade sale.

Did the invoice say no guarantee given or implied?

And 400 miles is not a lot, but for arguments sake in that 400 miles you could have driven to a track, done a days track driving and driven home.

no ,most people think they know what trade sale means not what consumer law says it means .

[AlastairM]

Still no further forward. dealer is not returning calls etc. Lucky for me i paid a £200 deposit via Barclaycard which gives me protection/help for getting this sorted outeven though i did not pay the full amount on my cc.
There has been a lot of different views expressed on here, some plucked out of thin air and some are straight facts. There also seem to be people who are on my side and and championing my cause so to speak so to them i have a massive thanks as there have been some very good sources of information. Hopefully this will be sorted out qucikly as i'm currently without a car. I will keep everyone upto date with the progress of this. If anyone wishes to know the dealer involved them PM me as i'm aware of Ted's name and sham policy. I'd not like anyone else to get stung by these guys.

[Olivera]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I've always been very sceptical of 911 Virgin's 'Millenium Bug' trade price. Can you really waive all of your rights by just buying at a lower price?

[Sam_68]

equinox said:

rallycross said:

to the people on this thread who think its fine to buy a car on trade terms (ie at a vastly reduced price) and then if/when something goes wrong its somehow ok to go running back to the dealer and expect to be treated like a retail customer, clearly you are living in the land of make believe.

I do hope the garage offer to help you sort this problem out, but its a lesson learned to anyone, buy a car as a TRADE SALE at your own risk.

No doubt some of you will quote (yet again) sale of goods act etc - but when I buy a car on trade terms I know what to expect. Its a risk you take, and buying a complex old thing like an S8 has a large risk associated with it.

Yes

Equinox

Agreed. Morally, you should just take it on the chin.

Technically, you have to remember that a dropped valve is not something that can be predicted and gives no prior warning. It doesn't even have anything much to do with how the car has been serviced and maintained, previously.

A dropped valve is just one of those things that falls into the 'sh1t happens' category.

You took a chance on buying a car without warranty. The car was perfectly serviceable when you bought it and the dealer can have had no knowledge that the valve was about to fail, so it was sold in good faith.

You presumably had the opportunity to buy the car with warranty at additional cost, and such a warranty would have covered unforseen mechanical failures of this type.

Sorry, but there it is... you paid your money and you took your chances. No good trying to blame the dealer for it!

[mr_p]

Olivera said:

I've always been very sceptical of 911 Virgin's 'Millenium Bug' trade price. Can you really waive all of your rights by just buying at a lower price?

Nope, read the bottom of the Millennium bug section on www.911virgin.com/prices.htm

911virgin said:

The millennium bug price is not intended to affect your statutory rights as a consumer.

which have been posted in this thread more than once

[Olivera]

mr_p said:

Olivera said:

I've always been very sceptical of 911 Virgin's 'Millenium Bug' trade price. Can you really waive all of your rights by just buying at a lower price?

Nope, read the bottom of the Millennium bug section on www.911virgin.com/prices.htm

911virgin said:

The millennium bug price is not intended to affect your statutory rights as a consumer.

which have been posted in this thread more than once

But the site states: "The pink price is for the car exactly as it stands, no guarantee, no pre-sales service, nothing. You are guaranteed clean title to the car in terms of ownership but that is it. We make no exceptions. If the engine blows up on the way home then we will advise you on the best way to go but not dip into our pocket to effect a repair."

This implies that if you agree to buy the car at the millemium bug price then you forfeit all rights once the cash is handed over. Surely if the engine blows up on the way home (as suggested) you may have an argument that the goods were not of satisfactory quality and not fit for purpose?

[smhmotorsport]

Not read all the posts but how did you get it as a trade sale? Last year I bought a B2500 from a dealer as a trade sale for myself, knowing it wanted cambelt/leaf spring/other bits. On ordering the parts I realised the car was an import. Basically I could have thrown it back at him saying it wasnt what you advertised but decided to keep it as there werent any other around at that price. You accepted that the vehicle was sold as trade, even though youre not, to save some cash and unfortunately its come and bit you in the arse. Personally if I'd sold you the car I'd be saying you had the option of a warranty at extra cost but declined.

[Rob-C]

Plenty of people on this thread have said that the buyer has rights under the sale of goods act, but still no-one has said exactly what those rights are! I would like to think that the aftermarket warranties sold by dealers offer some protection over and above the buyer's statutory rights. But I still do not know what protection is enshrined in law and what protection the buyer must pay extra for! Some posts in this thread make it sound like the aftermarket warranty is worthless because the sale of goods act is all the protection you need - I'm still to be convinced.

The valve broke in a relatively short space of time, so I imagine the dealer probably is obliged to replace the valve, if it can be proved that the valve was faulty at the time of sale. Does the act extend to the labour cost of replacing the valve, or to repairing any damage resulting from the broken valve? Anyone with real legal knowledge care to weigh in?

[Equinox]

Elaborating a bit: So to know that it is a valve that has broken I Guess that you have taken the head off? If so then I guess that as you had the fault diagnosed / took the head off that you were prepaired to pay for the repairs yourself. Surley if from the start you didnt want to pay then you would have just taken the car strait back to them.

I presume that you were just going to fund the repair yourself but then discovered that it was a more costly affair so decided against it!!

Equinox

[bimsb6]

Rob-C said:

Plenty of people on this thread have said that the buyer has rights under the sale of goods act, but still no-one has said exactly what those rights are! I would like to think that the aftermarket warranties sold by dealers offer some protection over and above the buyer's statutory rights. But I still do not know what protection is enshrined in law and what protection the buyer must pay extra for! Some posts in this thread make it sound like the aftermarket warranty is worthless because the sale of goods act is all the protection you need - I'm still to be convinced.

The valve broke in a relatively short space of time, so I imagine the dealer probably is obliged to replace the valve, if it can be proved that the valve was faulty at the time of sale. Does the act extend to the labour cost of replacing the valve, or to repairing any damage resulting from the broken valve? Anyone with real legal knowledge care to weigh in?

read the rest of the thread sale goods act is quoted several times .

[ATG]

Equinox said:

Elaborating a bit: So to know that it is a valve that has broken I Guess that you have taken the head off? If so then I guess that as you had the fault diagnosed / took the head off that you were prepaired to pay for the repairs yourself. Surley if from the start you didnt want to pay then you would have just taken the car strait back to them.

I presume that you were just going to fund the repair yourself but then discovered that it was a more costly affair so decided against it!!

Equinox

So what?

[ATG]

Key bits are that the goods must be of satisfactory quality and fit for their purpose. This means the goods must meet the standards that any reasonable person would expect, taking into account the description, the price and all other relevant information.

I'd imagine the key bit wrt the OP's position is how was the car described? If the dealer said "It's a nice runner and it will go for miles", then would a reasonable person expect that to mean "more than 400 miles". If the dealer said "it's a dog and I'd expect it to explode", then it was as described and fit for the purpose for which it was sold (i.e. a mobile fireworks display).

[DocJock]

ATG said:

Key bits are that the goods must be of satisfactory quality and fit for their purpose. This means the goods must meet the standards that any reasonable person would expect, taking into account the description, the price and all other relevant information.

I'd imagine the key bit wrt the OP's position is how was the car described? If the dealer said "It's a nice runner and it will go for miles", then would a reasonable person expect that to mean "more than 400 miles". If the dealer said "it's a dog and I'd expect it to explode", then it was as described and fit for the purpose for which it was sold (i.e. a mobile fireworks display).

But it has done more than 400 miles, it has done 75400 miles.
It is unreasonable to be expected to accept a valve failure in 400 miles, but not after 75400 surely?

If you buy a 6 year old car you are buying a car full of worn parts. As Rob-C said earlier, a dropped valve can happen at any time. If there was no evidence of a problem at the test drive then the purchaser is the one being unreasonable if he expects the dealer to sort this out IMO

[smhmotorsport]

Plus youre assuming the mileage is correct, which as will be stated on the receipt that it cannot be guaranteed..... so could be 200k. TBH its the lowest mileage Audi Ive seen of that age, wonder how much it cost?

[Equinox]

ATG said:

Equinox said:

Elaborating a bit: So to know that it is a valve that has broken I Guess that you have taken the head off? If so then I guess that as you had the fault diagnosed / took the head off that you were prepaired to pay for the repairs yourself. Surley if from the start you didnt want to pay then you would have just taken the car strait back to them.

I presume that you were just going to fund the repair yourself but then discovered that it was a more costly affair so decided against it!!

Equinox

So what?

So the owner was prepaired to pay for the repairs himself he obviously knew the car has no warranty or why would he spend money on diagnosing the fault himself. Until it gets expensive so the owner then trys another get out clause.

Equinox