Discussion
agent006 said:
Personally I prefer the sycophants to the I'M SO SUPERIOR nasty posters sniping from the sidelines.
The thread continues to be an island of people just being nice to each other and long may it continue.
Strange, because it looks like a total circle jerk from the outside.The thread continues to be an island of people just being nice to each other and long may it continue.
flemke said:
I could be wrong about this, ER, but my hunch is that, over the years and perhaps as a function of only my age ( 
), I have probably spent more time talking with more rich folks than you have done.
Based on my experience, the problem is not that they have less that is interesting to hear than what unrich folks have to say. The problem rather is that, too often, they imagine that what they have to say is more interesting to hear than it actually is, or that it is truer, more important or more insightful than it actually is. The conceit-to-content ratio can be high.
Being interested in what intelligent people have to say is another matter, but there is an imperfect correlation between personal wealth and personal brainpower. (Some might say that it is negative, but I would not want to go that far.
)
Quite sure your assumptions and observations are true. ), I have probably spent more time talking with more rich folks than you have done. Based on my experience, the problem is not that they have less that is interesting to hear than what unrich folks have to say. The problem rather is that, too often, they imagine that what they have to say is more interesting to hear than it actually is, or that it is truer, more important or more insightful than it actually is. The conceit-to-content ratio can be high.
Being interested in what intelligent people have to say is another matter, but there is an imperfect correlation between personal wealth and personal brainpower. (Some might say that it is negative, but I would not want to go that far.
)You do seem to have a way with words yourself, but lest I be called out by the blindswelledrat myself I'll just leave it at that.
>8^)
ER
LongLiveTazio said:
isaldiri said:
but one almost never reads anything in any magazine test/comparison about the F1 being quite as tricky as you have found, certainly nothing on the scale that would have triggered Manthey's comment about the car in the wet!
See: JC calling it skittish, Brundle nearly losing one in the wet, etc.! Brundle of course is a true driver although, as you say, the essential factor in his moment was the wet part.
TurboTerrific9 said:
buckle88 said:
So I've got my lotto ticket for tonight and I've called shotgun so basically guaranteed to win (sorry gents), and was wondering what the process is like to get an F1 these days? Is it through the factory or just brokers?
I read mr TT9 went through DK and I know he commented a few pages back, would you be happy sharing your experience on this at all?
Thanks.
Well I guess it took me around 8-9months to source my car. I used DK as I trust the guys there having found various cars for me previously. I read mr TT9 went through DK and I know he commented a few pages back, would you be happy sharing your experience on this at all?
Thanks.
However, they aren't easy to come by. A lot of cars are overseas and that can result in a not inconsequential VAT bill when importing them back into the UK. Quite a few are in collections which are unlikely to see daylight any time soon.
The biggest headache though is the number of false leads that are put in front of prospective buyers. Lot's of cars are suggested to be for sale only to find that an intermediary broker is just attempting to find out who's looking to buy and and what kind of level. They then contact all the current owners in their Rolodex hoping one bites - this almost always results in pushing perceived values skywards on thin air.
Unfortunately there appears to be very few straightforward deals that don't involve multiple brokers or advisers and this can often mean any number of folk after the same car. Indeed it's often hard to work out how real a deal is until it's all signed and delivered.
Despite reading that the factory has often acted as a broker to deals in the past it certainly appeared to me that this has rarely been the case for more recent deals.
So all in all it can be a pretty frustrating experience, despite what you might think when attempting to spend such a large amount of money... thankfully the result has made it all totally worthwhile!
Some F1 owners may have found McLaren a bit of a PITA to deal with, but I believe that many of them would be happy to use MA to buy or sell an F1.
On the other hand, McLaren are nothing like a full-time car dealer. There is no-one there who spends all day every day working the phones or out glad-handing and networking with potential buyers. McLaren do not deal at all with any other marques, and thus there is no trade-in or swap element in what they do, which further narrows their range of enquiries.
For the first 5-7 years of the cars' existence, until maybe 2003-ish, almost all transactions took place either through MA or via Taylor & Crawley, a specialist firm the boss of which used to be Sales Director for the F1, until he left under what AIUI were shall we say "awkward" circumstances. That guy, David Clark, used his connections established when he had been Sales Director to keep his hand in the game. For a couple/three years, almost every month's Motor Sport featured one of his adverts, with a series of (customers') F1s that he was offering for sale.
Nonetheless, during that period, most of the transactions (the ones that did not take place directly between principals) were handled by McLaren Automotive. Over time, however, as you say, the factory's involvement has steadily diminished. These days most (I'd estimate 75%) of the transactions take place away from the factory.
By now there are probably a dozen outfits that have handled 2 or more F1 transactions, which makes them all experts, at least in their own minds.
OutOfSync said:
3. It would not just be £47k to settle - he would also have to pay his legal costs up to that point. I have no idea what they would be but presumably around £25k (assuming that the £100k of legal costs was evenly split between claimant and defendant).
In your business, does "settle" necessarily connote total capitulation?If the two sides negotiate something between what the plaintiff is seeking and zero, does that not count as a settlement?
Piper too could have been afflicted by the "I'm right and I won't settle for anything less" syndrome, but surely he too should have been advised that there was some risk that he would lose.
Peloton25 said:
Beefmeister said:
Looks like someone in Switzerland is a fan of flemke's blue with white stripes colour scheme....
The owner of that LaFerrari would call it his own color scheme - here's his 599XX:
This is his 599 GTO:
Not certain he has any others, but doubtful he found inspiration where you suggest.
Also he recently shared this in answer to a question of 'What made you get the white lines?'
ChalStrad said:
When I learned that the vast majority were in various reds I went with "my colors"
The white stripe, blue carbon roof, splitter, sills, fog light, rear fender, wheel lock centers, wing mirror arms and diffuser as well as the Bianchi Fuji stripe were my idea but we worked on it for a while with the team in the Ferrari design centre
The engine stripe in blue and white was "pure me" as was the matte interior carbon (not blue) and the alcantara interior
Also the belts have a grey embroidered horse - not the rectangular Ferrari badge
>8^)The white stripe, blue carbon roof, splitter, sills, fog light, rear fender, wheel lock centers, wing mirror arms and diffuser as well as the Bianchi Fuji stripe were my idea but we worked on it for a while with the team in the Ferrari design centre
The engine stripe in blue and white was "pure me" as was the matte interior carbon (not blue) and the alcantara interior
Also the belts have a grey embroidered horse - not the rectangular Ferrari badge
ER
The scheme is - at least - 60 years old. For example:
Rob Walker started using the scheme (basic colours taken from the flag of Scotland) 60 years ago.
(By the way, the comments which you have quoted from the Fezza guy, especially the "pure me" bit, exemplify my above point about rich people's sense of self-importance.)
trackdemon said:
TurboTerrific9 said:
VladD said:
TurboTerrific9 said:
Stuff
TT9, what are you planning on doing with yours? Are you going to modify it in any way? Will you be doing any track days or tours? I assume it won't be a daily driver, but do you plan on using it on a regular basis? Just interested to know your reasons for buying it part from the obvious wanting to own an F1 thing.I plan to keep it pretty much as original as possible, with the exception of maybe adding the new titanium exhaust. Other than that I really don't think it needs anything. It will go back to McLaren in the winter for a good going over, service and tanks etc.
I will drive it for fun, but I certainly plan to put a good amount of mileage on the car. Doubt I'll track it as most modern machinery will out-brake it with ease and I don't fancy a Caterham darting up the inside of me as we head into a corner.
MajorProblem said:
Flemke, seeming as you have access to the best road cars in the land, what's the best race car you've driven?
I have driven just a few racing cars, and only a small number of those at "the" limit (meaning my own limit, which is far below the limit of a proper professional racing driver). When I raced, it was in a series of cars that were closely related. Therefore, sorry, but I am incapable of answering your question in a meaningful way.
flemke said:
It's been quite a while since I last drove a Zonda, but my main sense of them was that they were of a piece. The primary systems worked in harmony and were, in general, at a similar level of effectiveness and user friendliness. The brakes were over-servo'd but, otherwise, it all worked together.
Wrt the handling, the main thing (in my limited experience, and, as they were not my cars, I was def not pushing them) was its predictability and intuitiveness. Grip and balance changed in continuous transitions. The only way you could get caught out was if you were doing something which you knew could catch you out, which normally is the thing that keeps you from getting caught out.
As for CGT, there are a couple things to say. The first is that it is a downforce car. Most people, including me, are unaccustomed to driving downforce cars, and driving them is certainly a skill that must be acquired if one is to expose oneself much to the effect. That is to say, it's great when you are building speed and the car feels increasingly planted, but it's not so great when that planted feeling causes you to over-reach yourself to the point where there simply ain't enough additional DF to keep the car on the road, or, when you do something such as go over a crest which causes the car momentarily to lose most or all of its DF, in which case you can quickly have a problem on your hands.
The second thing is that the car has got enormous front grip. The steering reacts instantaneously to driver inputs. So: large car, loads of power, hyper-reactive steering, low polar moment...one can see where this might be going (as in, into a hedge backwards). It's not that hard to drive, but it does require respect, which includes a certain appreciation at least conceptually if not empirically of the need to stay within the limits of one's own abilities. It's not a car in which to experiment.
A couple of other minor factors which nevertheless got the car a bad reputation at the time were its low ramp angle (could be addressed with an after-market lifting kit, as I had done) and the carbon-ceramic clutch.
The idea behind the clutch was simply that, from a standing start and especially, crucially, on a hill start, before the car begins to move off, one should not touch the throttle. Rather, one should only let out the clutch and allow the engine management system on its own to modulate the required power inputs. People were trying to slip the clutch, which confused the engine management system, which led them to slipping it some more, and the results were stalling cars and ruined clutches. It's never a problem if one remembers to operate the clutch in the way that it was designed uniquely to be used, rather than in the way that one uses the clutch in other cars.
CGT is a wonderful car. How something like a 993 GT2 can now go for more, in some cases apparently a lot more, money is a mystery to me.
Much appreciated for the considered reply especially per Joe911 with you being away.Wrt the handling, the main thing (in my limited experience, and, as they were not my cars, I was def not pushing them) was its predictability and intuitiveness. Grip and balance changed in continuous transitions. The only way you could get caught out was if you were doing something which you knew could catch you out, which normally is the thing that keeps you from getting caught out.
As for CGT, there are a couple things to say. The first is that it is a downforce car. Most people, including me, are unaccustomed to driving downforce cars, and driving them is certainly a skill that must be acquired if one is to expose oneself much to the effect. That is to say, it's great when you are building speed and the car feels increasingly planted, but it's not so great when that planted feeling causes you to over-reach yourself to the point where there simply ain't enough additional DF to keep the car on the road, or, when you do something such as go over a crest which causes the car momentarily to lose most or all of its DF, in which case you can quickly have a problem on your hands.
The second thing is that the car has got enormous front grip. The steering reacts instantaneously to driver inputs. So: large car, loads of power, hyper-reactive steering, low polar moment...one can see where this might be going (as in, into a hedge backwards). It's not that hard to drive, but it does require respect, which includes a certain appreciation at least conceptually if not empirically of the need to stay within the limits of one's own abilities. It's not a car in which to experiment.
A couple of other minor factors which nevertheless got the car a bad reputation at the time were its low ramp angle (could be addressed with an after-market lifting kit, as I had done) and the carbon-ceramic clutch.
The idea behind the clutch was simply that, from a standing start and especially, crucially, on a hill start, before the car begins to move off, one should not touch the throttle. Rather, one should only let out the clutch and allow the engine management system on its own to modulate the required power inputs. People were trying to slip the clutch, which confused the engine management system, which led them to slipping it some more, and the results were stalling cars and ruined clutches. It's never a problem if one remembers to operate the clutch in the way that it was designed uniquely to be used, rather than in the way that one uses the clutch in other cars.
CGT is a wonderful car. How something like a 993 GT2 can now go for more, in some cases apparently a lot more, money is a mystery to me.
Have been lucky to drive a CGT twice, most recently on the new supersports which I found made the car much more settled fwiw and can relate to a few things that you mentioned above (including rather embarassingly stalling the car on a slight incline letting out the clutch a touch too quickly
). I thought the car was utterly spellbinding to drive but as you say certainly was one to be respected. As well, it certainly did make me wonder what the F1 would be like as if I recall, you had always rated the F1 a good bit over the CGT as a driving experience too!flemke said:
I hope that the Fezza owner would not have the brass balls to call dark-blue-with-white-accents "his" scheme. Such a contention would be risible.
I think it is "his" in the sense of preference, and of course we agree the inspiration is decades old.flemke said:
(By the way, the comments which you have quoted from the Fezza guy, especially the "pure me" bit, exemplify my above point about rich people's sense of self-importance.)
Yes - he's a bit like that for sure, but would you expect any less from the President of Ferrari Club France, and member of the Corse Clienti and Ferrari XX programs? Still think you'd enjoy those F1 Tours.
>8^)
ER
Peloton25 said:
Yes - he's a bit like that for sure, but would you expect any less from the President of Ferrari Club France, and member of the Corse Clienti and Ferrari XX programs?
Well, no. Which is precisely what Flemke is trying to avoid, AFAICS. Especially with someone as closely linked to Ferrari as that.Peloton25 said:
Yes - he's a bit like that for sure, but would you expect any less from the President of Ferrari Club France, and member of the Corse Clienti and Ferrari XX programs?
Still think you'd enjoy those F1 Tours.
>8^)
ER
So not only has this dude drunk the Kool-aid, but he helps to mix it.Still think you'd enjoy those F1 Tours.
>8^)
ER
And it had to be the Ferrari Club France!
If he'd used a decent solid blue paint instead of the knee-jerk metallic, I'd be worried, but I am relieved to see that he has remained firmly on the gauche side of the line.
flemke said:
I hope that the Fezza owner would not have the brass balls to call dark-blue-with-white-accents "his" scheme. Such a contention would be risible.
The scheme is - at least - 60 years old. For example:
Rob Walker started using the scheme (basic colours taken from the flag of Scotland) 60 years ago.
(By the way, the comments which you have quoted from the Fezza guy, especially the "pure me" bit, exemplify my above point about rich people's sense of self-importance.)
even ferrari themselves used it, racing as NART in the '64 USGPThe scheme is - at least - 60 years old. For example:
Rob Walker started using the scheme (basic colours taken from the flag of Scotland) 60 years ago.
(By the way, the comments which you have quoted from the Fezza guy, especially the "pure me" bit, exemplify my above point about rich people's sense of self-importance.)
isaldiri said:
Much appreciated for the considered reply especially per Joe911 with you being away.
Have been lucky to drive a CGT twice, most recently on the new supersports which I found made the car much more settled fwiw and can relate to a few things that you mentioned above (including rather embarassingly stalling the car on a slight incline letting out the clutch a touch too quickly ). I thought the car was utterly spellbinding to drive but as you say certainly was one to be respected. As well, it certainly did make me wonder what the F1 would be like as if I recall, you had always rated the F1 a good bit over the CGT as a driving experience too!
As was said a few pages back, the F1 may not offer the objectively "best" drive amongst road cars, with at least the Zonda and CGT being ahead of it, by some measures well ahead of it. I do think, however, that the F1 offers the most exhilarating and potentially most satisfying drive.Have been lucky to drive a CGT twice, most recently on the new supersports which I found made the car much more settled fwiw and can relate to a few things that you mentioned above (including rather embarassingly stalling the car on a slight incline letting out the clutch a touch too quickly
). I thought the car was utterly spellbinding to drive but as you say certainly was one to be respected. As well, it certainly did make me wonder what the F1 would be like as if I recall, you had always rated the F1 a good bit over the CGT as a driving experience too!
flemke said:
trackdemon said:
TurboTerrific9 said:
VladD said:
TurboTerrific9 said:
Stuff
TT9, what are you planning on doing with yours? Are you going to modify it in any way? Will you be doing any track days or tours? I assume it won't be a daily driver, but do you plan on using it on a regular basis? Just interested to know your reasons for buying it part from the obvious wanting to own an F1 thing.I plan to keep it pretty much as original as possible, with the exception of maybe adding the new titanium exhaust. Other than that I really don't think it needs anything. It will go back to McLaren in the winter for a good going over, service and tanks etc.
I will drive it for fun, but I certainly plan to put a good amount of mileage on the car. Doubt I'll track it as most modern machinery will out-brake it with ease and I don't fancy a Caterham darting up the inside of me as we head into a corner.
Edited by trackdemon on Saturday 12th July 13:20
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