Incriminating Evidence

[DucatiGary]

ferrisbueller said:

apache said:

To play devils advocate for a mo. We only have 10p shorts version of events so this is a little like a courtroom hearing the defendants case alone.

I'd like to know the full story of this accident.

http://civictype-r.co.uk/phpbb2/viewt

excuse the fools on the civic forum . . . . . . there are lots . . . .

then a local motorbike forum, when it first happend.

www.hartside.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1519

and then when they found out the sentence at the weekend (also one of them posted in the SP&L forum here)

www.hartside.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2626

[tin hat]

Chav central

[Kentish]

The posts on the bike forum are a little biased.

"hardly ever the bikers fault"

I don't know if anyone else can relate to being overtaken up the inside then cut across in front of on motorways and dual carriageways, cut across in front of from the outside whilst in the outside lane of the motorway then bike undertakes car in front.

Bikes squeezing up the inside of you in your blind spot at junctions and roadworks then accellerating away and crossing in front of you.

Bike suddenly appears as you pull out of junction, yes "think bike" but not much help when bike is accellerating hard at 70 in a 30.

Sadly this happens all too often, most riders I know have had fairly serious incidents and were going too fast or taking chances.

[DucatiGary]

might also be worth noting that on the hartside forum on the original thread, one post says 2 bikers died that morning . . . . . .

not saying it had ANYTHING to do with the later accident, just thought it might be worth noting

[Steve350]

Kentish said:

The posts on the bike forum are a little biased.

"hardly ever the bikers fault"

I don't know if anyone else can relate to being overtaken up the inside then cut across in front of on motorways and dual carriageways, cut across in front of from the outside whilst in the outside lane of the motorway then bike undertakes car in front.

Bikes squeezing up the inside of you in your blind spot at junctions and roadworks then accellerating away and crossing in front of you.

Bike suddenly appears as you pull out of junction, yes "think bike" but not much help when bike is accellerating hard at 70 in a 30.

Sadly this happens all too often, most riders I know have had fairly serious incidents and were going too fast or taking chances.

Did someone say biased?

[ferrisbueller]

DucatiGary said:

might also be worth noting that on the hartside forum on the original thread, one post says 2 bikers died that morning . . . . . .

not saying it had ANYTHING to do with the later accident, just thought it might be worth noting

I read that it said 2 smaller ones. 2 fatalities would have made national, not local.

You'll read further on in that thread that the local BiB have unmarked cars parolling up and down, camera vans further down the A686 and two Panda cars being extra vigilant. To be honest, things like this happen every other week up there and it's kind of ruined it. It's a good road to have a little fun, it is not a road on which to take liberties. It remains a mecca as one of the best roads in the country for bikes and cars alike but sooner or later they'll slap a 40 limit on the whole section.

[pbirkett]

Shame really, the 686 is definitely one of my favourite roads, it is a riot.

I can see how its dangerous though, many a time have i rounded a corner to find a bike just about getting back on his side of the road. Not surprised theres so many accidents.

[tybalt]

RUL got upset when

nervous said:

"what people want is not more effort into catching the worst road offenders, but more effort put into catching burglars, rapists, murderers etc. i recognise that they dont represent as ready form of revenue, but we'd all be really grateful if this message could get through"

nervous got upset when

R_U_Local said:

"So what? We shouldn't be prosecuting the worst motoring offenders?

Get real - the "you should be out catching burglars/rapists/murderers" argument is the oldest and weakest one in the book, and it's a big book. There are numerous different levels of Policing, the vast majority of which, believe it or not, are aimed at reducing domestic burglary, car crime and violent crime. The problem is that most people like yourself either don't see how much of this work goes on, or choose to ignore it for the sake of an argument.

Alongside the efforts put into preventing and detecting crime, the Police have a duty to enforce traffic laws, especially the most serious ones."

On reflection, it seems like a lot argy about nothing very much. I think internet forums leave a lot to be desired as a medium for communication. There is lots of room for misinterpretation, and for people to take things the wrong way which is what has happened here on both sides I think. My feeling was that nervous went a bit off the deep end. Liked your website nervous - I can see why you might be proud of your job.

[Kentish]

Steve350 said:

Kentish said:

The posts on the bike forum are a little biased.

"hardly ever the bikers fault"

I don't know if anyone else can relate to being overtaken up the inside then cut across in front of on motorways and dual carriageways, cut across in front of from the outside whilst in the outside lane of the motorway then bike undertakes car in front.

Bikes squeezing up the inside of you in your blind spot at junctions and roadworks then accellerating away and crossing in front of you.

Bike suddenly appears as you pull out of junction, yes "think bike" but not much help when bike is accellerating hard at 70 in a 30.

Sadly this happens all too often, most riders I know have had fairly serious incidents and were going too fast or taking chances.

Did someone say biased?

Did someone say "troll"?

[nervous]

tybalt said:

My feeling was that nervous went a bit off the deep end. Liked your website nervous - I can see why you might be proud of your job.

i disagree, this happens to be something i care deeply about as a) a person thats been through exactly what 10 pence is currently going through and b) more recently, a victim of utterly inadequate policing undertaken by just this kind of officer with just this kind of outlook. It matters not, we dont all have to agree, but i dont feel that im in any way more the antagonist or out of line here.

glad you like my website, and that you can see why id be proud of my job. Its very rewarding to help people out when they need it most. Shame theres not of that about in my opinion.

[apache]

nervous said:

i disagree, this happens to be something i care deeply about as a) a person thats been through exactly what 10 pence is currently going through and b) more recently, a victim of utterly inadequate policing

y'little tinker nerv, I thought there was more to this

[BonzoGuinness]

nervous said:

b) more recently, a victim of utterly inadequate policing undertaken by just this kind of officer with just this kind of outlook.

I'm sorry, but how does "inadequate policing" relate to either of these cases?

In both cases the police have went down the dangerous driving line (rightly so perhaps). In one, they were overridden by the CPS and the judge handed out a pitifully low sentence for careless driving. In the other, the charge was successful and the judge handed out a lengthy but fair sentence.

In neither case did the police have a hand in the sentencing, so why the apparent animosity towards them on here?

[Davi]

Gazboy said:

Davi said:

My problem with 10 pence shorts sentance is not when compared with the thief, it's when compared with general sentancing. Every day we hear of more and more recommendations from politicians that prison sentances should be a last resort, we here of genuine scum who are a danger to others in EVERY aspect of life, not just driving, getting off without any real punishment, but as soon as it's a driver - you are generally screwed.

I wouldn't say 10 pence got screwed, forget 10pence was a driver, in a car being hard done by, there is someone at home who has had his life completely and utterly destroyed. I still can't believe that fella got that punishment for nicking a teddy....

sorry don't think I was particularly clear, I'm not saying 10ps was screwed in comparison with his offence, but that the motorist is generally treated way, way, way more harshly than in other walks of life. If justice is performed on a sliding scale according to the act committed (which it should be - you don't hang a child for their first offence of stealing a penny chew) then based on other sentances handed out, comparatively the normally law abiding motorist is disproportionately punished.

If the feedback I get from a BiB I know is anything to go by, this is generally believed by the front line boys too. If you are going to cut terms of incarceration for the career criminals, the whole scale has to be adjusted to remain proportionately fair. At the moment it isn't, and that's what tends to get the law abiding publics back up.

[nervous]

BonzoGuinness said:

nervous said:

b) more recently, a victim of utterly inadequate policing undertaken by just this kind of officer with just this kind of outlook.

I'm sorry, but how does "inadequate policing" relate to either of these cases?

In both cases the police have went down the dangerous driving line (rightly so perhaps). In one, they were overridden by the CPS and the judge handed out a pitifully low sentence for careless driving. In the other, the charge was successful and the judge handed out a lengthy but fair sentence.

In neither case did the police have a hand in the sentencing, so why the apparent animosity towards them on here?

i didnt say it did. i said that the outlook of the officer was the same.

and, forgive me Bonzo, but i would have thought its my decision how i feel about things, rather than yours. if thats changed, please pm me and ill edit all my posts, ever. if not, ill carry on having differing opinions based on my personal experience, just like everyone else.


edited to correct spooling and respondee name.

Edited by nervous on Friday 27th April 19:13

[Martin F]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Just to give you a little insight into the mindset of people like Hussain, I asked him if he had a licence, and he said that he used to have a provisional, but he lost it several years ago. I asked him if he'd ever taken a driving test and he said that no, he hadn't.

R_U_LOCAL said:

We went to the senior Crown Prosecutor with a very detailed file, but some fairly flimsy evidence (despite our best efforts), and their decision was that there was insufficient evidence to support a charge of causing death by dangerous driving, for the simple reason that we couldn't prove that his driving was dangerous.

Am I the only one that spots a problem here?

Surely the fact that Mr Hussain doesn't have a valid full licence and has never passed his test means by implication that his standard of driving has not been assesed as being high enough for him to take charge of a motor vehicle by himself on public roads. Therefore by him driving without the correct supervision he is putting himself and other road users in danger and is therefore driving dangerously.

Obviously I can see the counter argument for this, just because he never got around to taking his test doesn't mean that he isn't a $hit hot driver, etc, etc, lah, de dah, de dah.

But the LAW states that he is not allowed to drive as in their eyes he has yet to demonstrate that his driving skills are of a high enough level to satisfy them, but when he kills some poor innocent kid the LAW (CPS in this case) says, well maybe his skills are OK it was just an unfortunate accident.

WTF...why didn't they just give him a licence as well !


Thanks to R U Local for this insight, it's generally an interesting thread.

[BonzoGuinness]

nervous said:

BonzoGuinness said:

nervous said:

b) more recently, a victim of utterly inadequate policing undertaken by just this kind of officer with just this kind of outlook.

I'm sorry, but how does "inadequate policing" relate to either of these cases?

In both cases the police have went down the dangerous driving line (rightly so perhaps). In one, they were overridden by the CPS and the judge handed out a pitifully low sentence for careless driving. In the other, the charge was successful and the judge handed out a lengthy but fair sentence.

In neither case did the police have a hand in the sentencing, so why the apparent animosity towards them on here?

i didnt say it did. i said that the outlook of the officer was the same.

and, forgive me Bonzo, but i would have thought its my decision how i feel about things, rather than yours. if thats changed, please pm me and ill edit all my posts, ever. if not, ill carry on having differing opinions based on my personal experience, just like everyone else.


edited to correct spooling and respondee name.

Edited by nervous on Friday 27th April 19:13

I don't believe at any point I questioned your right to have a differing opinion, or made any "decisions" as to that opinion. I merely asked why you held it as I am having trouble relating any past experiences you may have, as well as the current comparison between 10p/Hussain with any bad feelings towards a decent sounding copper such as RUL?

[nervous]

BonzoGuinness said:

I don't believe at any point I questioned your right to have a differing opinion, or made any "decisions" as to that opinion. I merely asked why you held it as I am having trouble relating any past experiences you may have, as well as the current comparison between 10p/Hussain with any bad feelings towards a decent sounding copper such as RUL?

thats because your opinion differs to mine. see how that works?

[BonzoGuinness]

nervous said:

BonzoGuinness said:

I don't believe at any point I questioned your right to have a differing opinion, or made any "decisions" as to that opinion. I merely asked why you held it as I am having trouble relating any past experiences you may have, as well as the current comparison between 10p/Hussain with any bad feelings towards a decent sounding copper such as RUL?

thats because your opinion differs to mine. see how that works?

I quite respect the fact that your opinion is different, I already understood that was the explaination for the italics - it's self evident. What I was asking is simply the reasoning behind that opinion?

Edited by BonzoGuinness on Saturday 28th April 10:57

[nervous]

BonzoGuinness said:

I quite respect the fact that your opinion is different, I already understood that was the explaination for the italics - it's self evident. What I was asking is simply the reasoning behind that opinion?

Edited by BonzoGuinness on Saturday 28th April 10:57

thats a very personal question bonzo.

ive already shared considerable personal detail in this thread and do so further simply to prove a point or to allow you to further an argument with me simply because you can, would be both futile and dis-respectful to all parties concerned. if you really wish to know my personal circumstances, and not just with a view to telling me that they dont justify me disagreeing with someone, then by all means PM me.

Again, i was not aware i had to justify myself to you before having an opinion.

[BonzoGuinness]

nervous said:

BonzoGuinness said:

I quite respect the fact that your opinion is different, I already understood that was the explaination for the italics - it's self evident. What I was asking is simply the reasoning behind that opinion?

Edited by BonzoGuinness on Saturday 28th April 10:57

thats a very personal question bonzo.

ive already shared considerable personal detail in this thread and do so further simply to prove a point or to allow you to further an argument with me simply because you can, would be both futile and dis-respectful to all parties concerned. if you really wish to know my personal circumstances, and not just with a view to telling me that they dont justify me disagreeing with someone, then by all means PM me.

That's entirely fair - I'm not forcing anyone to justify anything and neither do I wish to. I was just curious.

nervous said:

Again, i was not aware i had to justify myself to you before having an opinion.

Nor was I aware of this.

Edited by BonzoGuinness on Saturday 28th April 11:37