RE: German cars have to cut emissions

[RobM77]

Zod said:

No way will this happen. Porsche, BMW, VW Group and Mercedes will never allow it until tehy car get the desired level of performance from a low emission car. It's absurd in any case as the number of cars at the highest levels is far lower than the number at average levels.

I agree. It's common sense that the average family car should be targetted, not performance cars. How many TVRs or Porsches did you see on the way to work this morning compared with the number of mundane cars?

[kambites]

RobM77 said:

How many TVRs or Porsches did you see on the way to work this morning compared with the number of mundane cars?

Not many sports cars but where I live (southern English suburbia) I would say that small cars (say focus sized or smaller) make up well under half of the vehicles on the road. Huge numbers of SUVs and lots of BMW/Merc/Audi/etc. type vehicles.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 4th September 13:00

[RobM77]

kambites said:

RobM77 said:

How many TVRs or Porsches did you see on the way to work this morning compared with the number of mundane cars?

Not many sports cars but where I live (southern English suburbia) I would say that small cars (say focus sized or smaller) make up well under half of the vehicles on the road. Huge numbers of SUVs and lots of BMW/Merc/Audi/etc. type vehicles.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 4th September 13:00

Yes, I guess that's true. Mind you, it does depend when and where you're driving. I still think it's strange how I can drive a so called 'performance' car that emits less than your average car on the road.

[Zod]

They can and will cut the emissions of the average 3 series/C Class/A4 and 5 Series/E Class/A6 to that kind of level, but high performance cars, such as M cars, AMGs, RS versions and Porsches are sold in low numbers and their emissions cannot easily be cut while maintaining performance.

[RobM77]

Zod said:

They can and will cut the emissions of the average 3 series/C Class/A4 and 5 Series/E Class/A6 to that kind of level, but high performance cars, such as M cars, AMGs, RS versions and Porsches are sold in low numbers and their emissions cannot easily be cut while maintaining performance.

my thoughts exactly

[kambites]

I think you're sadly misguided if the average environmentalist cares about the performance of cars.

And anyway I'm not sure you can cut the emissions of a C-class that low with today's technology. Not without lightening the car massively anyway.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 4th September 13:24

[Dino D]

RobM77 said:

but your average car on the street (0-60 in 9 or 10 seconds, top end of 120mph, 160-200 g/km and 35-40mpg) shouldn't really be using similar or more fuel than my Elise (0-60 in 5 seconds, top end of 135mph, 163g/km and 40-50mpg). We need more clever thinking from engineers - where an average family car uses considerably less fuel than something like my Elise.

Your average family car has a lot more seats, airbags, air vents, metal, doors, windows, wipers, electrical gear than your average Elise.

[kambites]

Dino D said:

Your average family car has a lot more seats, airbags, air vents, metal, doors, windows, wipers, electrical gear than your average Elise.

So under the new rules, you can either have a gutless underpowered family car or a fast but minimalist sports car which manages similar emissions. That's fine by me.

[RobM77]

Dino D said:

RobM77 said:

but your average car on the street (0-60 in 9 or 10 seconds, top end of 120mph, 160-200 g/km and 35-40mpg) shouldn't really be using similar or more fuel than my Elise (0-60 in 5 seconds, top end of 135mph, 163g/km and 40-50mpg). We need more clever thinking from engineers - where an average family car uses considerably less fuel than something like my Elise.

Your average family car has a lot more seats, airbags, air vents, metal, doors, windows, wipers, electrical gear than your average Elise.

Exactly my point - do you need all that stuff? My Elise has electric windows, air conditioning, a very effective heater and a good CD player. The only thing I can see your average family wanting is more sound deadening. The mk2 Nissan Micra weighed even less than my Elise, at about 750kg, so why does the current one have to weigh so much? I know safety regulations have improved, but so has materials technology (my Elise is probably stronger and safer than a current Micra..). I realise that the main obstacle to all of this is cost, but I think the thought is worth having.

[oagent]

Would this apply to all new cars built in Germany, all new cars sold in Germany, or all new cars built by German manufacturers?
Got a feeling VAG, Merc and BM build cars in Mexico/SA/Poland etc already, so just build them under "VW (Mexico Inc)" and move production of the more poluting models out to these factories and keep the city car production back home.

[havoc]

I wondered why Porsche had just upped their stake in VAG to 50%!!!

...average means sell loads of Bluemotion (is that the right title?) VWs and a few high-margin Porkers/Bentleys, I guess...

[Parrot of Doom]

If they could cut emissions to this level, they'd have done it years ago. Lower emissions = lower fuel costs. A big factor when selling a car.

120grams is unachievable with current technology, unless you basically have a shit little tin box car.

A load of hot air IMO. It will never happen.

[kambites]

Parrot of Doom said:

120grams is unachievable with current technology, unless you basically have a shit little tin box car.

There is a mk5 golf that manages 119g/km and I wouldn't call that a little tin box car but I can't see anything in the next class up managing it for some while.

[[TW]Fox]

Why must we destroy our economies just so we can say Look at us! to the Chinese and the Americans? If everyone in Europe stopped driving ANY sort of car TOMMORROW, the difference in world C02 emissions would not even register.

When are we going to move away from these silly, pointless C02 based car targets and instead target the real cause of C02 emission (If such emissions really matter which I am inclined to believe they do not) - Chinese and American industry?

Or cows?

[s2art]

Parrot of Doom said:

120grams is unachievable with current technology, unless you basically have a shit little tin box car.

A load of hot air IMO. It will never happen.

Wellll, maybe. It depends how its measured, no? Assume a hybrid, switching over to, or assisted by, stored battery power for urban driving.

[otolith]

kambites said:

There is a mk5 golf that manages 119g/km and I wouldn't call that a little tin box car

Nor is it one that you would want to drive, though. It achieves that figure by being underpowered (105ps) and overgeared and by having overinflated fuel-miser tyres. You can also bet that the theoretical fuel consumption improvements would evaporate when driven in the way you would have to drive it to make adequate progress. You can also bet that it's thoroughly nasty to drive.

kambites said:

I can't see anything in the next class up managing it for some while.

The Passat equivalent isn't that far off at 136g/km. The bluemotion stuff doesn't really do anything particularly clever, so add in something like BMW's efficient dynamics package (regenerative braking on the overrun to charge the battery to run the ancillaries) and I think you could get close.

[Apache]

[TW]Fox said:

Why must we destroy our economies just so we can say Look at us! to the Chinese and the Americans? If everyone in Europe stopped driving ANY sort of car TOMMORROW, the difference in world C02 emissions would not even register.

When are we going to move away from these silly, pointless C02 based car targets and instead target the real cause of C02 emission (If such emissions really matter which I am inclined to believe they do not) - Chinese and American industry?

Or cows?

Because it has nothing to do with world CO2 emissions and everything to do with new taxes for you and I

[Double R]

new German environment minister soon, job done

politicians are all a bunch of idiots

or

second hand cars from 2011 backwards will be sought after

Edited by Double R on Tuesday 4th September 15:11

[tomtom]

RobM77 said:

I agree. It's common sense that the average family car should be targetted, not performance cars. How many TVRs or Porsches did you see on the way to work this morning compared with the number of mundane cars?

As I got on to Queen Victoria St. this morning there were 3 997s (2 cabs and a hard top) sat in a row at a pedestrian crossing, followed by a Cayman S. As I finished chuckling to myself I noticed a 996 Cab and a Boxster driving the other way down the street.

At that time in the morning (6:30am) I'd say 1 in 3 vehicles on that stretch of road is a Porsche, an Aston, a Merc, a BMW or a Ferrari/Maserati.

But I digress.

Edited by tomtom on Tuesday 4th September 15:23

[otolith]

RobM77 said:

Exactly my point - do you need all that stuff? My Elise has electric windows, air conditioning, a very effective heater and a good CD player. The only thing I can see your average family wanting is more sound deadening.

Space. I'd have bought an Elise if SWMBO hadn't bought an MX5 first and nabbed the impractical two seat roadster shaped hole in our driveway. We needed at least one car with four seats and at least a nod towards luggage space, and there's just the two of us with no crotchfruit planned. Considering the average family with a young child think they need a bus to haul all the primary coloured crap around, I think you're on a loser.

RobM77 said:

The mk2 Nissan Micra weighed even less than my Elise, at about 750kg, so why does the current one have to weigh so much? I know safety regulations have improved, but so has materials technology (my Elise is probably stronger and safer than a current Micra..). I realise that the main obstacle to all of this is cost, but I think the thought is worth having.

Too large an investment in old technologies to allow a quick switch to composites. It's happening gradually, though, with more use of high strength alloys and the replacement of panels with composites in high-end models. The M3-CSL style carbon fibre roof is now standard M3 fare. Before too long they will be appearing on more ordinary models. Renault has been fitting plastic wings for years. Aluminium bonnets and boot lids are fairly commonplace now. The move to more crash-safe cars isn't legislation-driven, though, it's consumer driven. People want those NCAP stars. They also expect more space, and so the class gets bigger.

Hopefully the tide is turning; the MKIII MX5 is barely heavier than the MKII, the new Mazda 2 is 100kg lighter than the old one and the platform will underpin the new Fiesta. Maybe the days when VW can boast of the Golf's excessive weight by showing it falling through multi-storey car park levels are gone.