RE: German cars have to cut emissions
Discussion
otolith said:
RobM77 said:
Too large an investment in old technologies to allow a quick switch to composites. It's happening gradually, though, with more use of high strength alloys and the replacement of panels with composites in high-end models. The M3-CSL style carbon fibre roof is now standard M3 fare. Before too long they will be appearing on more ordinary models. Renault has been fitting plastic wings for years. Aluminium bonnets and boot lids are fairly commonplace now. The move to more crash-safe cars isn't legislation-driven, though, it's consumer driven. People want those NCAP stars. They also expect more space, and so the class gets bigger.
If anything good comes from the proposed CO2 directives, it's a breakthrough for composites in structural applications. Until now, manufacturers have reacted to legislation and consumer expectations by putting stuff on top of what they already did: engine management, electronic vehicle stability control systems, airbags, extra crash protection structures. The new CO2 emissions goals may be within reach for non-premium manufacturers who can - put bluntly - put their customers in ecofriendly sh*tboxes if that's all they can afford to drive - but the ones who charge a premium over and beyond this level obviously can't - to provide the premium level performance, comfort and driveability their customers expect, they will have to re-think their strategies of hitherto where every new generation of a model is bigger and porkier than the outgoing one; and to shave hundreds rather than a few kilograms of their cars' kerbweight they will need to build their cars 'structurally' lighter.Insiders say that the first widespread OEM application for composites in body structures will be front and side impact crashboxes rather than skin panels (where actually not that much is to be gained in comparison with aluminium for instance), though. You've read it first here.
The germans are all ready on it, for example take BMW, Mini Cooper D 118grams and thats with out there efficient dynamics, which is all coming out soon, regenerative braking, auto start stop, intelligent alternators, all these reduce load on the engine and so on, but don't effect driveability, if anything you gain more power.
Why shouldn't they be at least trying to hit this target? Not so long ago you could commit suicide by breathing in exhaust fumes, stand in the paddock at Goodwood near some of the older stuff whilst they're being warmed up and your eyes will be streaming within seconds.
I'd rather the solution was found through technology than taxes, the manufacturers have the resources to do something, not us as individuals.
I'd rather the solution was found through technology than taxes, the manufacturers have the resources to do something, not us as individuals.
That minister gabriel chap is a nutter, he has all sorts of ridiculous ideas to make life of car enthusiasts worse. He came up with the idea of banning all classic cars a while ago, as they would be too polluting, yeah right cars which get out of the garage only a few weeks a year won't make so much difference will it? Idiot!
This time I don't think the germans will abide the new rules, if they ever come into use!
This time I don't think the germans will abide the new rules, if they ever come into use!
I'm not suggesting this legislation will actually happen - seems to long a way off for premium German marques, but I disagree in the notion that it will kill the industry.
Its fairly clear to motor industry watchers that future growth will be in more efficient cars. With the US still heavily in love with the V8-powered SUV, Europe has a chance to cement its position as the world leader in efficient auto industry. Hence I don't think it is economic suicide to force the market to become more efficient.
I know its not a popular subject on PH but oil prices are only going one way from here til it runs out, and we need to be shifting to more efficient usage.
That said using CO2 as a measure of efficiency is still stupid.
Its fairly clear to motor industry watchers that future growth will be in more efficient cars. With the US still heavily in love with the V8-powered SUV, Europe has a chance to cement its position as the world leader in efficient auto industry. Hence I don't think it is economic suicide to force the market to become more efficient.
I know its not a popular subject on PH but oil prices are only going one way from here til it runs out, and we need to be shifting to more efficient usage.
That said using CO2 as a measure of efficiency is still stupid.
Edited by LayZ on Tuesday 4th September 17:20
I still think 75% of this is of political making - once again the car is scapegoat while industry gets off nearly scot-free due to it's deeper pockets for 'lobbying' (sic) 
- Oil prices have fluctuated many times before to both political situations and apparent reserves (and we keep finding new reserves and learning how to access existing stuff better).
- Air quality now is excellent anywhere where cars are required to have cats and there aren't many factories / power stations. Anything MORE required from cars is just gilding the lily, IMHO.
- Petrol/Diesel is already taxed WELL in excess of all other forms of fuel / power.
- The cleaner we require the cars to be (emissions in general), the harder it is to hit fuel-economy targets as more stringent cats strangle an engine. So for manufacturers it's a see-saw between extra economy and lower emissions.
Don't get me wrong...the auto industry has repeatedly pulled rabbits out of hats before (usually the Japs showing the way or GM having hedged it's bets), and I think they'll have a damn good go here.
But all this crap is just making our cars more complex, more expensive, more difficult to repair (now THERE is pollution - a 5yr life car is a lot more polluting than a 10yr or 15yr life car!), and generally less pleasant places to be than they could be if technology was allowed to evolve in different directions...
...ah well...we'll never win...politicians are too aware of the power the car has over us...
- Oil prices have fluctuated many times before to both political situations and apparent reserves (and we keep finding new reserves and learning how to access existing stuff better).
- Air quality now is excellent anywhere where cars are required to have cats and there aren't many factories / power stations. Anything MORE required from cars is just gilding the lily, IMHO.
- Petrol/Diesel is already taxed WELL in excess of all other forms of fuel / power.
- The cleaner we require the cars to be (emissions in general), the harder it is to hit fuel-economy targets as more stringent cats strangle an engine. So for manufacturers it's a see-saw between extra economy and lower emissions.
Don't get me wrong...the auto industry has repeatedly pulled rabbits out of hats before (usually the Japs showing the way or GM having hedged it's bets), and I think they'll have a damn good go here.
But all this crap is just making our cars more complex, more expensive, more difficult to repair (now THERE is pollution - a 5yr life car is a lot more polluting than a 10yr or 15yr life car!), and generally less pleasant places to be than they could be if technology was allowed to evolve in different directions...
...ah well...we'll never win...politicians are too aware of the power the car has over us...
Six months old news:
Porsche Reduces CO2 and Pollutant Emissions
Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, Stuttgart, has set out to further reduce the CO2 emissions of its cars by a significant margin. As the Company announced at the Geneva Motor Show (5 – 18 March 2007), all Porsche models, starting as early as next year, will comply with the strict EU5 emission standards applicable as of September 2009, at the same time even fulfilling the currently defined limits of the EU6 standard not scheduled to take effect until September 2014. A further point announced by the company is that all Porsche engines are already able today to run on fuel with an ethanol additive. This applies both to Porsche's sports cars designed for a 10 per cent share of ethanol and to the Cayenne sports utility vehicle able to run on a fuel mixture with up to 25 per cent ethanol. [...]
http://www.automotoportal.com/article/porsche-redu...
Bodo said:
all Porsche models, starting as early as next year, will comply with the strict EU5 emission standards applicable as of September 2009, at the same time even fulfilling the currently defined limits of the EU6 standard
EU5/6 emission standards are not concerned with CO2, they're concerned with local air quality issues. The reducing CO2 bit is a separate thing, although the way that press release is worded is a bit misleading. Unintentionally, I'm sure... Edited by otolith on Tuesday 4th September 19:27
otolith said:
Bodo said:
all Porsche models, starting as early as next year, will comply with the strict EU5 emission standards applicable as of September 2009, at the same time even fulfilling the currently defined limits of the EU6 standard
EU5/6 emission standards are not concerned with CO2, they're concerned with local air quality issues. 
120g/km is unrelistic in the short term, but car manufacturers are improving all the time. My 226 BHP Mondeo with a 3.0 V6 emits 249g/km. The BMW 335 coupe with the same size engine and over 300 BHP only emits 218g/km, and the 335 diseasel only spews out 177g/km. Now that's progress! I don't doubt that we'll be looking at even the highest performance cars outputting under 150g/km within 10 years.
Zod said:
No way will this happen. Porsche, BMW, VW Group and Mercedes will never allow it until tehy car get the desired level of performance from a low emission car. It's absurd in any case as the number of cars at the highest levels is far lower than the number at average levels.
Agreed, this will NOT happen.It would destroy the German Industry.
The French push for it Europe-wide, because lets face it, they can't build proper cars and few of them care about high performance engines and cars- and this would help sell their heaps of shit.
EDLT said:
How about having an ECU with two maps, one to pass emissions and another that... doesn't simply by pressing the "sport" button. Job done and we can all be home in time for pastys.
That's called 'defeat device' and a manufacturer is severaly punisheable if this is found out- usually in the order of millionsEdited by Marquis_Rex on Wednesday 5th September 07:02
A Diesel Tigra isn't clean. It just doesn't emit much CO2. That's not what we need. We need clean cars.
CO2 doesn't affect the health of people. But that's too much reasoning for the average Powerpoint-brain which
can only connect two or three catchphrases, I think.
CO2 doesn't affect the health of people. But that's too much reasoning for the average Powerpoint-brain which
can only connect two or three catchphrases, I think.
Edited by Kamikaze on Wednesday 5th September 07:43
Apache said:
[TW]Fox said:
Why must we destroy our economies just so we can say Look at us! to the Chinese and the Americans? If everyone in Europe stopped driving ANY sort of car TOMMORROW, the difference in world C02 emissions would not even register.
When are we going to move away from these silly, pointless C02 based car targets and instead target the real cause of C02 emission (If such emissions really matter which I am inclined to believe they do not) - Chinese and American industry?
Or cows?
Because it has nothing to do with world CO2 emissions and everything to do with new taxes for you and IWhen are we going to move away from these silly, pointless C02 based car targets and instead target the real cause of C02 emission (If such emissions really matter which I am inclined to believe they do not) - Chinese and American industry?
Or cows?
Remember that since the 1980s, there appeared across much of Europe, a political consensus based ostensibly upon a form of wet wibberalism but in fact, a philosophy forged as bullwark against the hated tenets of Reaganomics and Maggie's allegience thereto.
Although an imperfect generalisation - after all, it was Maggie herself who piffled on about CFCs - this fundamental drawing of lines in the sand, as it were, exists to this day and what has been steadily condemning us has been the gradual surrender, courtesy of the disaster that was the 1997 UK general election result, of this country to that rabid collective of wannabe communists in the Bruggebourg Eurojibberjabber.
It has created a pan european zeitgeist (envirocrap) against which no argument is mounted and the media entirely complicit.
Of course, we should remain hopeful, since our friends who populate the land populated by ze volk of The Prussian Kings' loins' most glorious outpourings do have the grail of autobahnen, despite all these unspeakable murmurings.
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