RE: German cars have to cut emissions
Discussion
derestrictor said:
Apache said:
[TW]Fox said:
Why must we destroy our economies just so we can say Look at us! to the Chinese and the Americans? If everyone in Europe stopped driving ANY sort of car TOMMORROW, the difference in world C02 emissions would not even register.
When are we going to move away from these silly, pointless C02 based car targets and instead target the real cause of C02 emission (If such emissions really matter which I am inclined to believe they do not) - Chinese and American industry?
Or cows?
Because it has nothing to do with world CO2 emissions and everything to do with new taxes for you and IWhen are we going to move away from these silly, pointless C02 based car targets and instead target the real cause of C02 emission (If such emissions really matter which I am inclined to believe they do not) - Chinese and American industry?
Or cows?
Remember that since the 1980s, there appeared across much of Europe, a political consensus based ostensibly upon a form of wet wibberalism but in fact, a philosophy forged as bullwark against the hated tenets of Reaganomics and Maggie's allegience thereto.
Although an imperfect generalisation - after all, it was Maggie herself who piffled on about CFCs - this fundamental drawing of lines in the sand, as it were, exists to this day and what has been steadily condemning us has been the gradual surrender, courtesy of the disaster that was the 1997 UK general election result, of this country to that rabid collective of wannabe communists in the Bruggebourg Eurojibberjabber.
It has created a pan european zeitgeist (envirocrap) against which no argument is mounted and the media entirely complicit.
Of course, we should remain hopeful, since our friends who populate the land populated by ze volk of The Prussian Kings' loins' most glorious outpourings do have the grail of autobahnen, despite all these unspeakable murmurings.
THE reason, above all else, for anyone with even a hint of full leaded in their veins to hate the bitch Marquis_Rex said:
EDLT said:
How about having an ECU with two maps, one to pass emissions and another that... doesn't simply by pressing the "sport" button. Job done and we can all be home in time for pastys.
That's called 'defeat device' and a manufacturer is severaly punisheable if this is found out- usually in the order of millionsHow difficult would it be to create another chip that's got a proper 'map' on it, and just wire them both up to a switch in the cabin, or even under the engine bay (only need to change it once a year...
)?!? Surely it's not THAT troublesome and expensive...if someone develops a 'standard chip' for each engine you wouldn't even need r-road time to map each car...Bodo said:
I quoted the news, mate. I'm not saying that they have anything to do with CO2.
I know, it's just interesting the way the quote is worded. The ironic thing is that hitting tighter regulations on local air quality issues (EUI/II/III etc) has resulted in higher CO2 emissions than would otherwise have been the case. Requirements like fast catalyst warmup and extended catalyst life lead to cars running richer than they have to.
[TW]Fox said:
Why must we destroy our economies just so we can say Look at us! to the Chinese and the Americans? If everyone in Europe stopped driving ANY sort of car TOMMORROW, the difference in world C02 emissions would not even register.
When are we going to move away from these silly, pointless C02 based car targets and instead target the real cause of C02 emission (If such emissions really matter which I am inclined to believe they do not) - Chinese and American industry?
Or cows?
....an awfully big assumption that there is any correlation between CO2 AND climate change in the first place....When are we going to move away from these silly, pointless C02 based car targets and instead target the real cause of C02 emission (If such emissions really matter which I am inclined to believe they do not) - Chinese and American industry?
Or cows?
Cliffv8 said:
i think i should point that in the pic what you can see there is water vapor, not CO bloody 2 shows what the bloody media knows about cars 
water vapor- one of the biggest contributors to climate change when talking about green house gases......if you believe that is what's causing climate change in the first place and that we,as mere mortals, have any true understanding of how this planets atmosphere works...and IMHO we ain't got a clue!Bodo said:
----
Six months old news:
Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, Stuttgart, has set out to further reduce the CO2 emissions of its cars by a significant margin. As the Company announced at the Geneva Motor Show (5 – 18 March 2007), all Porsche models, starting as early as next year, will comply with the strict EU5 emission standards applicable as of September 2009, at the same time even fulfilling the currently defined limits of the EU6 standard not scheduled to take effect until September 2014. A further point announced by the company is that all Porsche engines are already able today to run on fuel with an ethanol additive. This applies both to Porsche's sports cars designed for a 10 per cent share of ethanol and to the Cayenne sports utility vehicle able to run on a fuel mixture with up to 25 per cent ethanol. [...]
http://www.automotoportal.com/article/porsche-redu...
EU emmissions regs have nothing to do with C02 emissions, as others have pointed out these laws have actually increased C02 production by making engines less efficient than they used to be. Take a look at BHP output for a small capacity engine today compared with 10-15 years ago. Rover 1.4 K series put out 105bhp standard, nothing is close now meaning the engine has to work harder to maintain the same pace. Six months old news:
Porsche Reduces CO2 and Pollutant Emissions
Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, Stuttgart, has set out to further reduce the CO2 emissions of its cars by a significant margin. As the Company announced at the Geneva Motor Show (5 – 18 March 2007), all Porsche models, starting as early as next year, will comply with the strict EU5 emission standards applicable as of September 2009, at the same time even fulfilling the currently defined limits of the EU6 standard not scheduled to take effect until September 2014. A further point announced by the company is that all Porsche engines are already able today to run on fuel with an ethanol additive. This applies both to Porsche's sports cars designed for a 10 per cent share of ethanol and to the Cayenne sports utility vehicle able to run on a fuel mixture with up to 25 per cent ethanol. [...]
http://www.automotoportal.com/article/porsche-redu...
Exhaust gas recirculation is a case in point, originally for the American markets but now commonly fitted to European cars is a measure that deliberately reduces the oxygen content in the combustion chamber (making the engine produce less power) just to reduce particulate size by burning a proportion of the exhaust gasses again. So voila less smoke but more C02.
Unfortunately it seems that no-one who makes the rules actually understands how things work to start with, but hey what's new?
I hope and prey this becomes law but fear it will not as the OEM's lobby, pout, and threaten measure that will do nothing but harm our wounded planet.
Don't get me wrong, I love cars, grew up dreaming of speed, V8's, racecars, dragsters and all the rest, but we have all got to grow up and act on the evidence. Scientists have proved beyond doubt that Climate Change is happening and we have just 30 years max to cut CO2 output by 90% to stop climate change accelerating beyond our control with consequences that are nothing but a disaster. Sure, car emissions are just one part of global pollution, but as it's clear the human race can't act responsibly and change it's behaviour on it's own then legislation, no matter how punishing, is the only answer. For the record, that stipulates average CO2 output from automobiles of around 40 g/km CO2....
I suggest you all read the following book. Beware though because although it's well written and is easy enough to get through it's pretty depressing at times. The fact is 99% of us simply don't realise how bad a situation we are all in or how simple it is to make things better. 99.9% of us also need to make significant moves to lead less damaging lives. If not for you, then do it for you children (and no, I don't work for the publisher).
Heat: How We Can Stop the Planet Burning - George Monbiot
Review here - http://www.energybulletin.net/22176.html
Fingers crossed the legislators win.
Oh, and for those of you that have doubts climate change is real, maybe you need to remember that people like you used to think the world was flat and laughed at the suggestions we are evolved from monkeys.
Don't get me wrong, I love cars, grew up dreaming of speed, V8's, racecars, dragsters and all the rest, but we have all got to grow up and act on the evidence. Scientists have proved beyond doubt that Climate Change is happening and we have just 30 years max to cut CO2 output by 90% to stop climate change accelerating beyond our control with consequences that are nothing but a disaster. Sure, car emissions are just one part of global pollution, but as it's clear the human race can't act responsibly and change it's behaviour on it's own then legislation, no matter how punishing, is the only answer. For the record, that stipulates average CO2 output from automobiles of around 40 g/km CO2....
I suggest you all read the following book. Beware though because although it's well written and is easy enough to get through it's pretty depressing at times. The fact is 99% of us simply don't realise how bad a situation we are all in or how simple it is to make things better. 99.9% of us also need to make significant moves to lead less damaging lives. If not for you, then do it for you children (and no, I don't work for the publisher).
Heat: How We Can Stop the Planet Burning - George Monbiot
Review here - http://www.energybulletin.net/22176.html
Fingers crossed the legislators win.
Oh, and for those of you that have doubts climate change is real, maybe you need to remember that people like you used to think the world was flat and laughed at the suggestions we are evolved from monkeys.
No-one here doubts that the Earth's climate is changing, always has changed and will continue to change.
Rather less certain is that atmospheric CO2 has any bearing on it, less again that anthropogenic CO2 has any.
Thanks to misguided individuals like Monbiot we now have a huge media-political bandwagon that is determined that we should focus everything we do on trying to halt a natural process over which we quite likely exert no influence whatsoever.
Let's speculate, for a moment, however, that anthropogenic CO2 is a factor in climate change: want to reduce it by a meaningful amount? Easy, simply bar all imports from China. Job done.
Rather less certain is that atmospheric CO2 has any bearing on it, less again that anthropogenic CO2 has any.
Thanks to misguided individuals like Monbiot we now have a huge media-political bandwagon that is determined that we should focus everything we do on trying to halt a natural process over which we quite likely exert no influence whatsoever.
Let's speculate, for a moment, however, that anthropogenic CO2 is a factor in climate change: want to reduce it by a meaningful amount? Easy, simply bar all imports from China. Job done.
Chrome Orange said:
I suggest you all read the following book.
Heat: How We Can Stop the Planet Burning - George Monbiot
Review here - http://www.energybulletin.net/22176.html
Heat: How We Can Stop the Planet Burning - George Monbiot
Review here - http://www.energybulletin.net/22176.html
Monbiot is one of the most bigoted and hypocritical people around. The chap has a chip on his shoulder about the auto industry the size of GM's debt!
Another book - LJK Setright - Drive On.
In part of it he chronicles how the car has been used as the scapegoat for smog and for other air pollution many times before, and has changed in response, only for nothing to change UNTIL THE FACTORIES CHANGED! q.f. Los Angelean smog in particular.
(The car has in general been used as scapegoat whenever and wherever possible, it would seem).
- Pollution from cars is fractional compared to factories and power stations.
- CO2 emissions from cars are fractional compared to factories and power stations. IIRC one power-station in the UK (Drax) emits 20 or 25% of the TOTAL UK man-made CO2 emissions!!! You don't see protesters outside that arguing for it's closure, do you?!?
- Man-made CO2 emissions are fractional compared to global emissions from the volcanoes and biota on the planet...so if you want to stop global warming, kill all the animals!!!
Scientists have proved beyond doubt that Climate Change is happening and we have just 30 years max to cut CO2 output by 90% to stop climate change accelerating beyond our control with consequences that are nothing but a disaster
BULLSHIT
enough of this eco-fascist end-is-nigh propaganda, really
send your post to the Guardian so maybe they will offer you a job there
to DETOX the brain from the "we vill tax you to death" communist rubbish using GW fears have a look at this book instead
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Skeptical-Environmentalist...
a breath of fresh air
Good luck and buy a submarine
RR
BULLSHIT
enough of this eco-fascist end-is-nigh propaganda, really
send your post to the Guardian so maybe they will offer you a job there
to DETOX the brain from the "we vill tax you to death" communist rubbish using GW fears have a look at this book instead
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Skeptical-Environmentalist...
a breath of fresh air
Good luck and buy a submarine
RR
Edited by Double R on Wednesday 5th September 13:59
havoc said:
Marquis_Rex said:
EDLT said:
How about having an ECU with two maps, one to pass emissions and another that... doesn't simply by pressing the "sport" button. Job done and we can all be home in time for pastys.
That's called 'defeat device' and a manufacturer is severaly punisheable if this is found out- usually in the order of millionsHow difficult would it be to create another chip that's got a proper 'map' on it, and just wire them both up to a switch in the cabin, or even under the engine bay (only need to change it once a year...
)?!? Surely it's not THAT troublesome and expensive...if someone develops a 'standard chip' for each engine you wouldn't even need r-road time to map each car...I think it would be easy to rechip any current production car to run lean at part load and get at least a 10% better fuel economy- with no hit on full load power or torque and no hesitation on transients. By this definition CO2 would be reduced however NOx would go up. I'll say this again, for a Natutrally aspirated gasoline engine- let's all just PLEASE DROP this chip tuning bollox/myth perpetuated by shrewd companies playing on the naive enthusiasm and ignorance of enthusiasts. There is NO benefit to increasing power at part throttle- you'll simply incur a fuel consumption penality. If you want more power at part load- you simply press down harder on the throttle- what is that so hard for people to understand on forum boards? I got into a scrap about this on some rennlist place which was unfortunatly sponrosed by a company trying to sell these kinds of services. I have nothing to sell. At full load there's very little to be had also, unless your engine runs an unnaturally high compression ration and you're prepared to run on higher octane gas- however modern sophisticated knock systems would pretty much mitigate this. I won't bother stating this again, as I'm pretty fed up of this coming up over and over.
Edited by Marquis_Rex on Wednesday 5th September 14:07
Chrome Orange said:
Don't get me wrong, I love cars, grew up dreaming of speed, V8's, racecars, dragsters and all the rest, but we have all got to grow up and act on the evidence.
You will, I take it, be immediately getting rid of your cars, turning off your computer, turning your household thermostat down to 16C and rendering all electrical appliances in your home beyond use?Chrome Orange said:
George Monbiot
I don't care how much CO2 it would stop him releasing, I still wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire.Chrome Orange said:
I hope and prey this becomes law
Before you pray for a new law it might be an idea to find out a bit more about the subject. Do you have an idea of the scale of the matter for example?The amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is 0.039% by volume, the proportion of carbon cycle contributed by mankind is 3.4% (IPCC) So, even if CO2 were the big issue, our contribution is miniscule.
Don't become polarised in your view either, most of us acknowledge climate change...or weather, as it's more commonly known, has been happening for millenia, it just so happens that we like this particular bit and would like it to stay, unfortunately those less arrogant realise this is improbable. Your hero is a shit stirring and ignorant hypocrit who will happily jet around the world telling you to stop travelling and Al Gore was a jaded politician looking for a new angle who, inconveniently, has a garage full of muscle cars.
http://www.sitewave.net/pproject/listbystate.htm
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/ten_facts_about_globa...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Petition
Good to see the flat earth society and climate change denials are alive and well on Pistonheads. Question to those people, how do you read the forums with your heads in the sand? Climate change doubters and 'Well, if the American's and Chinese won't do anything I won't brigade are exactly the people that are causing the legislators to start proposing and enforcing environmentally inspired laws and regulation. You are helping bringing this on yourselves because if you won't change change will be forced upon you.
Anyway, What is wrong with forcing OEM's to seriously clean up their act and us to buy the outcome? If it leads to small capacity, multi-turbo, super light vehicles with highly efficient transmissions, or series hybrids with back up generators feeding on green bio-mass derived fuels driving the car through hub mounted motors so be it - that sounds great! Liquid fuels derived from plants or rubbish can make a fine alternative to crude oil derived polluting fuels. And all of that is viable.
I love cars but they simply do not have to be as they are - Colin Chapman would love the challenge that's comming for the auto makers. I see an age of truely exciting, individual, and revolutionary cars coming, and if you don't like the idea of that then you really should not be reading this site. Tune in to Retro Classic Cars.com or whatever.
The Future needs to be greener and cars need to be much greener too because climate change is happening. That it can/will/could lead to the most diverse and exciting perriod of automobile design since the very dawn of the industy is something to look forward to I'd say.
Anyway, What is wrong with forcing OEM's to seriously clean up their act and us to buy the outcome? If it leads to small capacity, multi-turbo, super light vehicles with highly efficient transmissions, or series hybrids with back up generators feeding on green bio-mass derived fuels driving the car through hub mounted motors so be it - that sounds great! Liquid fuels derived from plants or rubbish can make a fine alternative to crude oil derived polluting fuels. And all of that is viable.
I love cars but they simply do not have to be as they are - Colin Chapman would love the challenge that's comming for the auto makers. I see an age of truely exciting, individual, and revolutionary cars coming, and if you don't like the idea of that then you really should not be reading this site. Tune in to Retro Classic Cars.com or whatever.
The Future needs to be greener and cars need to be much greener too because climate change is happening. That it can/will/could lead to the most diverse and exciting perriod of automobile design since the very dawn of the industy is something to look forward to I'd say.
Chrome Orange said:
Good to see the flat earth society and climate change denials are alive and well on Pistonheads.
[snip]
The Future needs to be greener and cars need to be much greener too because climate change is happening.
Which part of, 'we know the climate is changing, always has, always will' is causing your tiny little brain to overheat? There is precious little evidence of any kind in the real world outside of flawed computer models to suggest that carbon dioxide levels, man made or otherwise, have ever been or are now a significant climate forcing. There has been a small net decrease (insignificant but there nonetheless) in average global temperatures since 1998, the vast majority of what little heating there was in the 20th century occured before 1940, when anthropogenic carbon dioxide was no kind of issue. I could go on, but I won't - get your head out of your arse and do some proper research for yourself, rather than reading that hypocritical envy monkey Monbiot.[snip]
The Future needs to be greener and cars need to be much greener too because climate change is happening.
Chrome Orange said:
Good to see the flat earth society and climate change denials are alive and well on Pistonheads. Question to those people, how do you read the forums with your heads in the sand? Climate change doubters and 'Well, if the American's and Chinese won't do anything I won't brigade are exactly the people that are causing the legislators to start proposing and enforcing environmentally inspired laws and regulation. You are helping bringing this on yourselves because if you won't change change will be forced upon you.
Anyway, What is wrong with forcing OEM's to seriously clean up their act and us to buy the outcome? If it leads to small capacity, multi-turbo, super light vehicles with highly efficient transmissions, or series hybrids with back up generators feeding on green bio-mass derived fuels driving the car through hub mounted motors so be it - that sounds great! Liquid fuels derived from plants or rubbish can make a fine alternative to crude oil derived polluting fuels. And all of that is viable.
I love cars but they simply do not have to be as they are - Colin Chapman would love the challenge that's comming for the auto makers. I see an age of truely exciting, individual, and revolutionary cars coming, and if you don't like the idea of that then you really should not be reading this site. Tune in to Retro Classic Cars.com or whatever.
The Future needs to be greener and cars need to be much greener too because climate change is happening. That it can/will/could lead to the most diverse and exciting perriod of automobile design since the very dawn of the industy is something to look forward to I'd say.
What you propose would cost a fortune and wouldnt be very effective. If the governments were serious about reducing CO2 then we would have a rapid shift over to nuclear power. Nothing else would make a signifigant difference, private motoring just doesnt contribute enough. (you may be including the figures for all sorts of transport when you look at the supposed contribution from the private car)Anyway, What is wrong with forcing OEM's to seriously clean up their act and us to buy the outcome? If it leads to small capacity, multi-turbo, super light vehicles with highly efficient transmissions, or series hybrids with back up generators feeding on green bio-mass derived fuels driving the car through hub mounted motors so be it - that sounds great! Liquid fuels derived from plants or rubbish can make a fine alternative to crude oil derived polluting fuels. And all of that is viable.
I love cars but they simply do not have to be as they are - Colin Chapman would love the challenge that's comming for the auto makers. I see an age of truely exciting, individual, and revolutionary cars coming, and if you don't like the idea of that then you really should not be reading this site. Tune in to Retro Classic Cars.com or whatever.
The Future needs to be greener and cars need to be much greener too because climate change is happening. That it can/will/could lead to the most diverse and exciting perriod of automobile design since the very dawn of the industy is something to look forward to I'd say.
Chrome Orange said:
Anyway, What is wrong with forcing OEM's to seriously clean up their act and us to buy the outcome?
Because the result won't be anything that a car enthusiast wants to drive.And, if the climate models are correct, the dire consequences will happen anyway, because China and India and the rest of the developing world are not going to switch to other energy sources until either fossil fuels become too expensive or renewables become cheaper.
In other words, if the predictions are correct, we may get the moral high ground, but we'll still get flooded out. So why make the sacrifice if it will be in vain?
"if you don't like the idea of that then you really should not be reading this site"
who the hell are you to pontificate and instruct us on what to read?
as I said if you are trying to look good to the tree hugging marxist machine well job done. You can put that into your CV to Mr. Milliband. Add also the Labour party card, it will help
I do recycle but I had enough of being lectured by people that have no clue if we are going to freeze or boil alive
I do not have the head in the sand... it is people like you that put sand in our heads to control, tax and rule on our freedom
(some) scientists have sold out for political and career gains to the green mantra. It is now being exposed that the green propaganda is only a way to tax easily people that will not object at all to the 21st ultimate con
even on the BBC they are stopping to show green propaganda and a program has been axed - thank god
the green message is a valid one but the marxist leninist attitude to shove in our throats they way YOU want us to live according to YOUR agenda is unacceptable in a democracy
the culture of spin has now rebranded global warming into climate change courtesy of the wettest summer... the computer models are just reflecting the agenda of those writing the models. A vicious loop has been created where if it is hot is global warming, if it is cold is global warming...
the 21st century con has been the ability to come up with a reason to tax hot air - an amazing achievement indeed
it won't last, the lies will be exposed for what they are and a lot of people will be (hopefully) without a pen pushing - banner waving job
RR
who the hell are you to pontificate and instruct us on what to read?
as I said if you are trying to look good to the tree hugging marxist machine well job done. You can put that into your CV to Mr. Milliband. Add also the Labour party card, it will help
I do recycle but I had enough of being lectured by people that have no clue if we are going to freeze or boil alive
I do not have the head in the sand... it is people like you that put sand in our heads to control, tax and rule on our freedom
(some) scientists have sold out for political and career gains to the green mantra. It is now being exposed that the green propaganda is only a way to tax easily people that will not object at all to the 21st ultimate con
even on the BBC they are stopping to show green propaganda and a program has been axed - thank god
the green message is a valid one but the marxist leninist attitude to shove in our throats they way YOU want us to live according to YOUR agenda is unacceptable in a democracy
the culture of spin has now rebranded global warming into climate change courtesy of the wettest summer... the computer models are just reflecting the agenda of those writing the models. A vicious loop has been created where if it is hot is global warming, if it is cold is global warming...
the 21st century con has been the ability to come up with a reason to tax hot air - an amazing achievement indeed
it won't last, the lies will be exposed for what they are and a lot of people will be (hopefully) without a pen pushing - banner waving job
RR
Chrome Orange said:
Good to see the flat earth society and climate change denials are alive and well on Pistonheads.
And it's depressing to see yet another believer (because you simply will not see anything other than the 2 extremes of the subject) ignore facts, pointers and data to dare suggest your heroes might be wrong. You are unoriginal, ignorant and blindGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff