RE: German cars have to cut emissions

[Witchfinder]

Chrome Orange said:

We are where we are and the CO2 reductions required can be just about met without haveing to throw away our basic lifestyles.

I'm afraid you're dead wrong on this point. For example, curbing my car use would turn a 10 minute commute to work into a 50 minute bus ride (each way!). And if they introduce the Manchester Congestion Charge, I may have to do exactly that.

It's the thin end of a dangerous wedge, and you're not helping matters. Cars are not the problem, and this constant car-bashing is beginning to piss me off.

[havoc]

kambites -

witchfinder -


NO ONE knows for sure what is causing 'climate change'. At least, not with any accuracy. Anyone who claims otherwise is selling you snake-oil.

Scientists have become political just to preseve their careers (based on grant funding from government or industry), and as a result can no longer (in the main) be relied upon to be impartial (could they ever???).

Politicians have ALWAYS used the car as a convenient scapegoat for all manner of ills, and have seen how readily it can be taxed (tax on petrol/diesel is currently c.4 or 5x as high as that on domestic gas/oil or (back-calculated) the oil/gas/coal used in electricity generation. Yet they want to hammer motorists more???

[cham]

well bugger me... even my smart roadster puts out more emissions than that!

[BDEng66]

havoc said:

BDEng66 said:

water vapor- one of the biggest contributors to climate change when talking about green house gases......if you believe that is what's causing climate change in the first place...

Hmmm...these Hydrogen fuel-cell cars they're developing...what do they emit again?!?

Agreed, my point being that there is no proof that CO2 is in any way linked to climate change, we have no real understanding of why it happens....

Having cleaner air...is a completely different discussion, and I'm sure everyone on the planet can see the benefits of fuel cells and other cleaner fuel alternatives...

Problem is, logic disappeared a long time ago when the two issues became one, and are now used as a stick to beat the silent majority (and by that I mean everything from taxes that are unfair, ridiculous or both to laying on a guilt trip everytime you get in the car, when there really is no alternative)

We need to concentrate on efficiency and cleaner power....IMHO anyway.

PS Sorry for the delay in posting a reply....work eh!

[BDEng66]

grahambell said:

Chrome Orange said:

More to the point the OEM's are developing this technology with a view to getting to 40 g/km within 30 years because it's attainable, will be affordable and is worth it. And if they are willing to commit many many billions then they at least must also believe climate change and the statistics also used by Monbiot to be true even if some here do not.

Or maybe it's just that they suspect the prevailing political dogma, 'green tax' revenue generation frenzy and eco-bullshit makes it inevitable irrespective of whether or not CO2 emmissions do actually cause global warming.

Oh hang on - it's not global warming anymore it's 'climate change' - because that means the eco-nazis can moan whatever happens.

As for your earlier 'climate change deniers' remark, I think you'll find that plenty of us on here fully accept that climate change is happening.

However, we also fully accept that it's always been happening. And that even if everybody in the world did stop driving cars, using electricity and went back to living in caves IT WOULD STILL HAPPEN!

While condescending 'save the planet' types try to make out it's all our fault and that everyone did as they wanted nothing would ever change and the human race would live happily ever after, like so much 'man made global warming' propaganda it's all bullshit.

Earth history shows several 'mass extinction' events that have wiped out large percentages of life on the planet. The one that killed off the dinosaurs is the best known, but there are others, they've been fairly regular - and we're due another.

In fact just the other day, buried among all the 'Diana dead 10 years' stuff was news that astronomers have spotted a bloody big asteroid heading our way, and apparently there's a realistic chance that it might hit the planet.

Love to know what the 'save the planet' types are going to do about that...

And for me that sums it up most succinctly...

[Chrome Orange]

Apache said:

Chrome Orange said:

Apache said:

Chrome Orange said:

Good to see the flat earth society and climate change denials are alive and well on Pistonheads.

And it's depressing to see yet another believer (because you simply will not see anything other than the 2 extremes of the subject) ignore facts, pointers and data to dare suggest your heroes might be wrong. You are unoriginal, ignorant and blind

Really? I work for a major auto maker in product development on billion dollar programs slated for launch many years in the future. Products that have to take on the known environmental facts, have to deliver the kind of emission step changes that are needed and discussed below. The progess the auto industry has to make in this area is not hokum, it's real, the work the guys in the industry do is valid and leans on the kind of science so blindly dismissed in some of the posts here.

So, who exactly is ignorant or blind then?

Unoriginal? Go find a mirror.

You are blind because you cannot see the 'valid work' your industry is doing is at the behest of the EU and our government, this is based on flawed data and unproven science.

You are ignorant because you seem unable to tell the difference between a massive country with a massive population producing a small but potentially large per capita carbon footprint with a much smaller but fully developed nation with a large per capita footprint.

An you are devastatingly unoriginal in your dismissal of known facts and your reluctance to debate them.

Dear Apache,
I've more than contributed to this topic so it's very unfair to claim I'm reluctant to enter in to a debate.

Ignorance? Hmmm, excuse my typo there will you not. I accept the point made regarding my ill-formed comment on China and India, However, I don't feel you are in anyway informed or able to judge my interlect, although in such forum your bullying tone and raw insults may prove to others you own.

Blind? Well it's better to be open to all opinion, investigate further one's questions and form an opinion than to glibly sit on the fence. Not sure that forming and being willing to express an opinion makes me blind. It may mean I have a counterpoint to your view, but so what. In a couple of decades you may be proven to be right, conversly you may be swimming to work. I imagine if your wrong you'll be man enough to publicly express your shame for not taking any steps to try, no matter how pointless it all seemed, avoid what's happened.

Better, I still say to do SOMETHING rather than nothing. I don't care for all the 'it's a conspiracy man' theorys here, it's all too easy to form one in the face of information your comfortable with.

Good luck in (lack of) endevours guys.

Edited by Chrome Orange on Friday 7th September 13:39

[Chrome Orange]

Marquis_Rex said:

Chrome Orange said:

Apache said:

Chrome Orange said:

Good to see the flat earth society and climate change denials are alive and well on Pistonheads.

And it's depressing to see yet another believer (because you simply will not see anything other than the 2 extremes of the subject) ignore facts, pointers and data to dare suggest your heroes might be wrong. You are unoriginal, ignorant and blind

Really? I work for a major auto maker in product development on billion dollar programs slated for launch many years in the future. Products that have to take on the known environmental facts, have to deliver the kind of emission step changes that are needed and discussed below. The progess the auto industry has to make in this area is not hokum, it's real, the work the guys in the industry do is valid and leans on the kind of science so blindly dismissed in some of the posts here.

So, who exactly is ignorant or blind then?

Unoriginal? Go find a mirror.

Interesting.
Many people work in Product development of OEMs.
Some good and technical, some project managers, some meeting attenders.
Just out of interest, if you'd care to disclose, what is your role-what does it involve and how long have you been doing it at an OEM?

11 years working around the globe for automotive manufacturers on a long line of vehicle programs from initial concept to product launch. Good technical I'd like to think.
Good enough?

[Apache]

Chrome Orange said:

Dear Apache,
I've more than contributed to this topic so it's very unfair to claim I'm reluctant to enter in to a debate.]

Contributions and debate are not one in the same

Chrome Orange said:

Ignorance? Hmmm, excuse my typo there will you not. I accept the point made regarding my ill-formed comment on China and India, However, I don't feel you are in anyway informed or able to judge my interlect, although in such forum your bullying tone and raw insults may prove to others you own.]

Look I'm sorry if you feel bullied...although I fail to see how, the adjectives used were descriptive, anyone can be ignorant of a fact without being an ignoramus. I'm pretty ignorant of feminine hygiene products so there you go.....it's intellect btw

Chrome Orange said:

Blind? Well it's better to be open to all opinion, investigate further one's questions and form an opinion than to glibly sit on the fence. Not sure that forming and being willing to express an opinion makes me blind. It may mean I have a counterpoint to your view, but so what. In a couple of decades you may be proven to be right, conversly you may be swimming to work. I imagine if your wrong you'll be man enough to publicly express your shame for not taking any steps to try, no matter how pointless it all seemed, avoid what's happened.

Better, I still say to do SOMETHING rather than nothing. I don't care for all the 'it's a conspiracy man' theorys here, it's all too easy to form one in the face of information your comfortable with.

Talk about proof of the pudding. I have always maintained that I lean towards the distrustful side but do not dismiss anything without looking deeper myself.....hell, I even gave you some links. I don't deny that the climate is changing but I've seen convincing evidence to make me think we have little to do with it and when an economist and a politician tell me to stop questioning their theories about a subject that baffles very experienced scientists.........

If that leaning is to be proven wrong then yes, I will be man enough to admit it (I have done in the past re the Gulf War) I can bet if I'm right, however, Monbiot et al won't be as chivalrous

Edited by Apache on Saturday 8th September 09:08

[havoc]

BDEng66 said:

PS Sorry for the delay in posting a reply....work eh!

You suffer from that too, eh?!?

[Marquis_Rex]

Chrome Orange said:

Marquis_Rex said:

Chrome Orange said:

Apache said:

Chrome Orange said:

Good to see the flat earth society and climate change denials are alive and well on Pistonheads.

And it's depressing to see yet another believer (because you simply will not see anything other than the 2 extremes of the subject) ignore facts, pointers and data to dare suggest your heroes might be wrong. You are unoriginal, ignorant and blind

Really? I work for a major auto maker in product development on billion dollar programs slated for launch many years in the future. Products that have to take on the known environmental facts, have to deliver the kind of emission step changes that are needed and discussed below. The progess the auto industry has to make in this area is not hokum, it's real, the work the guys in the industry do is valid and leans on the kind of science so blindly dismissed in some of the posts here.

So, who exactly is ignorant or blind then?

Unoriginal? Go find a mirror.

Interesting.
Many people work in Product development of OEMs.
Some good and technical, some project managers, some meeting attenders.
Just out of interest, if you'd care to disclose, what is your role-what does it involve and how long have you been doing it at an OEM?

11 years working around the globe for automotive manufacturers on a long line of vehicle programs from initial concept to product launch. Good technical I'd like to think.
Good enough?

Very impressive, but a programme or vehicle engineer who is involved in launch, project management meetings and timing plans, may be the stuff of respect in the UK, but not in a country that is technically versed.
Moreover, while you're entirely entitled to your own opinion, this position 'in the automotive industry' doesn't make your opinions any more relevant as far as I can see than others here on this thread. Most of the technically versed engineers, actually involved in empirical and analytical scientific work where I work, and whom I work with at suppliers see the whole global warming shennanigan as the exagerated red herring it is. And don't forget that Germany is a country that is 'much greener'than the UK. Adopting a 'positive-management' attitude toward it and how the unrealistic goals will be met doesn't really help matters and usually comes from ignorance.
Yes, the car industry should be urged to be cleaner- but the regulations should be realistic and put into context. Then pushing this whole red herring to guilt for individuals who use cars- in order to exploit and get taxes is as clear for anyone to see who chooses to open their eyes.

[Parrot of Doom]

Chrome Orange said:

However, I don't feel you are in anyway informed or able to judge my interlect

[BDEng66]

Parrot of Doom said:

Chrome Orange said:

However, I don't feel you are in anyway informed or able to judge my interlect

No, but at least he's carried on posting, against a sea of negative replies...now I may not agree with him (I don't at all) but lets face it, if we all agreed this website would die....and we'd all be bored to tears.