RE: PH Heroes: Clio Trophy

[cg360]

Welshbeef said:

cg360 said:

Welshbeef said:

mccabe1983 said:

I have driven the 172 Sport it is nippy above 5,500 but then its only a few odd revs till change up time its not really that fast & once on the move modern run of the mill TDI's both common rail & pumpe duse can cathch a Clio Sport napping - which requires the Clio owner to change right down and then catch up and then maybe if there is still an overtaking option on go for it however by that time your well over the NSL - so pointless really.

You cannot call this a Hot Hatch - warm yes (nippy yes) but not hot. Ditto Civic Type R IMHO.

What would you call a Hot Hatch, then? How many horsepower? The Clio has a grunty N/A motor and the Type R has a seriously revvy one, so I'd have thought if you wanted grunt like a run-of-the-mill TDi or a screamer, then one of them fitted the bill... Or maybe TDIs are the new hot hatches?

Regardless of whether you like them or not, I'd say all the sporty Clios since the 16v were hot hatches. Sorry, Hot Hatches.

I disagree, modern Hot hatches have up to 260bhp S3 200bhp these days isnt enough and the power to weight Im afraid yet again for the Clio is way off the mark.

Mind you having said that if your running a 260bhp car your never going to push it to its limits on the road - or you'll be dragged aay it a straight jacket & rightly so, while a say 1.4 100bhp Panda you can - which is most fun??

But the point is this a Hot Hatch - clearly has to be a hatchback be practical seat 4 adults & have a lot of power. Well 172-197bhp isnt a lot given run of the mill cars have similar outputs.

Completely disagree with you about what a hot hatch is. It should be a breathed-on version of the normal hatchback car, regardless of how good/powerful it is. Same driven wheels and engine layout. Delta HF Turbo is a hot hatch, Integrale is not: Clio 16v/Williams is a hot hatch, Clio V6 is not: Golf GTI is a hot hatch, Rallye is not; 205 GTi is a hot hatch, T16 is not.

And they're not about power figures either. 205GTi had 115bhp, so did the Golf GTI.

For me, the Trophy is a hot hatch, in the purest sense. A car you can push to its limits on the way to Tesco's and on the way home again, a month's shopping on board.

[mccabe1983]

Realistic everyday fun did the same last night in my Trophy on way home from friends house.

I dont think the GTA had an LSD?

[cowellsj]

dulcinea said:

cowellsj said:

dulcinea said:

306 gti-6 anyone!! I use one as my station car and it is just so much fun round the country roads, absolute ball! So far no problems to speak of. Best thing was it cost me £2,800!

I might be being a bit thick here, but
Station car? is that a car you use generally just to drive to the railway station and leave there so you can hop on the train into London?

or

you work for the police force or fire service and it's a works car?

I use it to get to the station before heading into London! As someone says above, it is totally anonymous so has not been touched by the chavs who hang around.

They must be pretty anonymous, I hardly ever see one, either people don't use them much or i'm going blind, i'm sure there are plently out there somewhere.

[Welshbeef]

cg360 said:

Completely disagree with you about what a hot hatch is. It should be a breathed-on version of the normal hatchback car, regardless of how good/powerful it is. Same driven wheels and engine layout. Delta HF Turbo is a hot hatch, Integrale is not: Clio 16v/Williams is a hot hatch, Clio V6 is not: Golf GTI is a hot hatch, Rallye is not; 205 GTi is a hot hatch, T16 is not.

And they're not about power figures either. 205GTi had 115bhp, so did the Golf GTI.

For me, the Trophy is a hot hatch, in the purest sense. A car you can push to its limits on the way to Tesco's and on the way home again, a month's shopping on board.

They might "only" have had 115bhp (the 205GTi 1.6 - 115bhp the 1.9GTI was 130bhp)BUT the power to weight was much higher than a 115bhp car has today due to the nanny state H&S features.

[Welshbeef]

mccabe1983 said:

Realistic everyday fun did the same last night in my Trophy on way home from friends house.

I dont think the GTA had an LSD?

Im pretty sure it is - just like the Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo.

[edwardsje]

I loved mine before I sold it on. Never could get comfortable with the brakes though - although they are excellent in almost every way, heavy pressure would see you weaving around the road to a sometimes alarming degree.

[cg360]

Welshbeef said:

cg360 said:

Completely disagree with you about what a hot hatch is. It should be a breathed-on version of the normal hatchback car, regardless of how good/powerful it is. Same driven wheels and engine layout. Delta HF Turbo is a hot hatch, Integrale is not: Clio 16v/Williams is a hot hatch, Clio V6 is not: Golf GTI is a hot hatch, Rallye is not; 205 GTi is a hot hatch, T16 is not.

And they're not about power figures either. 205GTi had 115bhp, so did the Golf GTI.

For me, the Trophy is a hot hatch, in the purest sense. A car you can push to its limits on the way to Tesco's and on the way home again, a month's shopping on board.

They might "only" have had 115bhp (the 205GTi 1.6 - 115bhp the 1.9GTI was 130bhp)BUT the power to weight was much higher than a 115bhp car has today due to the nanny state H&S features.

Not much higher, really, and I know the 1.9 had more power - I'd have said 1.9GTI if I meant the 1.9GTI - the original 1.6l car was called the 205GTI (cap I for Pugs, lower case for VW). My point was that weight is a killer when it comes to handling, regardless of how you compensate with power. A light car with x power-to-weight-ratio will generally handle better than a car of y weight with the same p-t-w ratio (given similar suspension technologies, tyres etc.) - the Clio is closer to that light/powerful ideal than a barge of an Astra which is the same size as an old Vectra. My objection to today's (and your idea of what makes one) 'hot hatches' is that they're vast, heavy, compromised and not a huge amount of fun to drive. The Clio isn't, and is. That's all.

So it's a hero for being a 'real' hot hatch. Not a Hot Hatch. And I don't think there will be another, tbh. Nanny-state H&S features (as you say) will certainly be the end of the 'true' hot hatch.

[Welshbeef]

edwardsje said:

I loved mine before I sold it on. Never could get comfortable with the brakes though - although they are excellent in almost every way, heavy pressure would see you weaving around the road to a sometimes alarming degree.

That only happens if you give it the beans in 1st or 2nd!! it is nice having a 7,500rpm rev range though over 4 poters which usually have 6-6.5k tops.

[edwardsje]

Welshbeef said:

edwardsje said:

I loved mine before I sold it on. Never could get comfortable with the brakes though - although they are excellent in almost every way, heavy pressure would see you weaving around the road to a sometimes alarming degree.

That only happens if you give it the beans in 1st or 2nd!! it is nice having a 7,500rpm rev range though over 4 poters which usually have 6-6.5k tops.

I meant weaving under heavy braking, not torque steer under acceleration, Beef - was never too fussed about the latter tbh.

[mccabe1983]

Fiat coupe has an LSD as well?

Sure Alfa doesn't can remember when on Top Gear they tested against the Focus RS which did have it.

[cg360]

edwardsje said:

Welshbeef said:

edwardsje said:

I loved mine before I sold it on. Never could get comfortable with the brakes though - although they are excellent in almost every way, heavy pressure would see you weaving around the road to a sometimes alarming degree.

That only happens if you give it the beans in 1st or 2nd!! it is nice having a 7,500rpm rev range though over 4 poters which usually have 6-6.5k tops.

I meant weaving under heavy braking, not torque steer under acceleration, Beef - was never too fussed about the latter tbh.

Mine was limited to about 7k. Most 16valve 4-pots will go past that these days. Great cars, tho.

[Welshbeef]

edwardsje said:

Welshbeef said:

edwardsje said:

I loved mine before I sold it on. Never could get comfortable with the brakes though - although they are excellent in almost every way, heavy pressure would see you weaving around the road to a sometimes alarming degree.

That only happens if you give it the beans in 1st or 2nd!! it is nice having a 7,500rpm rev range though over 4 poters which usually have 6-6.5k tops.

I meant weaving under heavy braking, not torque steer under acceleration, Beef - was never too fussed about the latter tbh.

Ah yes that is a problem & to be honest vs the braking capability in a Mk4 Gt TDI 115pd the brakes in the Golf seem stronger? Not sure why though.

I think I tend to use the up to 6-6.5k say once a month or even longer than that and its a very short period of time I think the best is between 2.8k - 4.5k and sometimes up to 5.5k that range can get you seriously motoring.

Do you remember the magic 3rd gear... that still makes me lol foot down at 50leptons and thereis no let up at all until about 110leptons 3rd gear giant killer.

[Welshbeef]

mccabe1983 said:

Fiat coupe has an LSD as well?

Sure Alfa doesn't can remember when on Top Gear they tested against the Focus RS which did have it.

Yes they do - you have two dipsticks one for the engine oil and one for the viscous coupling (well a sort of LSD) & I have only span the wheels once in >4yrs ownership.

[Welshbeef]

cg360 said:

edwardsje said:

Welshbeef said:

edwardsje said:

I loved mine before I sold it on. Never could get comfortable with the brakes though - although they are excellent in almost every way, heavy pressure would see you weaving around the road to a sometimes alarming degree.

That only happens if you give it the beans in 1st or 2nd!! it is nice having a 7,500rpm rev range though over 4 poters which usually have 6-6.5k tops.

I meant weaving under heavy braking, not torque steer under acceleration, Beef - was never too fussed about the latter tbh.

Mine was limited to about 7k. Most 16valve 4-pots will go past that these days. Great cars, tho.

I think Ive hit the limiter once when I first had it I was in 2nd and pulled out to overtake at 20odd mph foot to the floor then in no time (I had come from a 150bhp N/A cavalier) acceleration had stopped & I was miles down the road past the cars then I realised that I had hit the limiter It looked to be 7.5k. I never made that mistake again boy was it quick such a revelation & in the wrong hands you could get into trouble with the speed.

I had a trip to france once in the winter a totally empty Auto route and I hit an indicated 160mph and it was just under 6000rpm in 5th so over 1000rpm to go - then I was overtaken by the only other car I saw in either direction for 30 miles a UK Plated E Class 7.2 V12 Brabus which flew past mine rocking my car (not a nice experiance at that speed) & the noise of his V12 could be heard clearly over my 5 pot singing + music on. Fond memories.

[Welshbeef]

mccabe1983 said:

Fiat coupe has an LSD as well?

Sure Alfa doesn't can remember when on Top Gear they tested against the Focus RS which did have it.

No the Ford RS has a Queiffe diff.

[vino187]

french cars are whoop! you may be able to sling a lightweight cardboard car around a corner which is lots of fun, (and can be catastrophic in the wrong place with police, pedestrians and granny drivers round every turn) but in the real world of motorways and long winding roads a clio will get trounced by anything with a bit of power. it may have a good 0-60 pace when thrashed but thats where it ends and more power wins when the wind resistance kicks in . torque steer? u only get that from a standing start. an alfa gta, focus rs or vxr or anything like that will just whip it in everyday use. oh and u can chuck all cars round bends fast which is fun. but if ur too optomistic or shite u`ll crash whatever car ur in. + kids drive clios.

[pbirkett]

vino187 said:

french cars are whoop! you may be able to sling a lightweight cardboard car around a corner which is lots of fun, (and can be catastrophic in the wrong place with police, pedestrians and granny drivers round every turn) but in the real world of motorways and long winding roads a clio will get trounced by anything with a bit of power. it may have a good 0-60 pace when thrashed but thats where it ends and more power wins when the wind resistance kicks in . torque steer? u only get that from a standing start. an alfa gta, focus rs or vxr or anything like that will just whip it in everyday use. oh and u can chuck all cars round bends fast which is fun. but if ur too optomistic or shite u`ll crash whatever car ur in. + kids drive clios.

I very much doubt the clio would be trounced by any modern hot hatch tbh.

When I had mine, I had no problems keeping up with far more expensive cars when out on hoons. I own a DC2 teg now but I still dont think I could "trounce" a well driven Clio Trophy, not by any stretch of the imagination, except maybe in a straight line at ridiculously high (read license losing) speeds. And who really cares about that, unless you are some max power, pub boasting muppet?

[EvoBarry]

I'd agree with that too, a Trophy would be all over a DC2 on most public roads and most tracks too imo. As for the modern hatches, two litre turbos with no soul at all, no thanks.

[edwardsje]

Seem to remember the Trophy keeping up with much more exotic machinery in EVO COTY 2006 when it placed 3rd. Great piece about it staying with the Ferrari(?) at night iirc.

[Birdthom]

I run a 172 cup with a few tweaks and it's as fast as any car I've driven on B roads. Not at all sophisticated though and the only way to have fun is to drive at lunatic speeds. At normal speeds it all feels pretty dull really. It's not the best car in the world by any means but it's very good at what it was designed to do. Hot hatches are meant to be scary little baked bean tins which don't need lsds or massive power. Whether that is your thing or not is really up to you. Welshbeef seems to prefer more grown up cars and is missing the point IMO. Wrong about the power band too - it comes on song properly at 4.5k and bounces at 6.75k which gives you plenty to work with if you can manage a gearbox. It cuts in much earlier until really warmed up though (in fact it's a bit of a dog to drive when really cold).

All IMO etc etc