A green mans view of 4x4s

[andy400]

RobM77 said:

but it doesn't stop me pointing out the complete lack of common sense!

I think I give up!

I think you should give up. Surely lacking in common sense no more than owning a large engined sports/supercar when the highest speed limit in the land is 70mph. 'Track Day' I hear you say? Same thing exists for off-roaders. At least the circumstances could exist to use the full capabilities of a 4x4 legally on the public roads, whereas they never will for a sports car.

[otolith]

RobM77 said:

My posts have simply been highlighting the strange choice of motorists who only drive on the road to put their 'compromise' stake in the ground so close to off road ability, when it is something that they'll never use. It is their choice to choose their compromises however they wish, but I can't claim to understand it!

I think it's just that ordinary cars are so much more dynamically competent than is strictly necessary that for the vast majority of users the off road ability compromises don't really cost them anything. If anything, buying an urban car with ride-ruining rubber and suspension is a weirder compromise to strike. For a car which lives in an environment where it can never be responsibly driven hard, feeling every bit of lousy road maintenance for the sake of knocking a few tenths off the Nürburgring lap time seems to me a greater lunacy than buying something that sacrifices transient cornering response for off-road ability. Of course, some urban 4x4s manage to do both, which is really perverse.

[RobM77]

andy400 said:

RobM77 said:

but it doesn't stop me pointing out the complete lack of common sense!

I think I give up!

I think you should give up. Surely lacking in common sense no more than owning a large engined sports/supercar when the highest speed limit in the land is 70mph. 'Track Day' I hear you say? Same thing exists for off-roaders. At least the circumstances could exist to use the full capabilities of a 4x4 legally on the public roads, whereas they never will for a sports car.

But my point is that a good power/weight ratio doesn't hinder you much on the road. You still get lovely feedback and handling in a sports car which you can enjoy, whereas the ground clearance and traction that a big tyred off roader offer really compromise the road driving experience - it's worth it if you go off road (which plenty of people on this thread do), but otherwise pointless. I suppose it's like walking round in a life jacket all the time in case you might fall in some water. Jolly useful for skinny people who live in a windy place near the sea, but for everyone else just cumbersome and pointless. My sports cars qualities are more like knowing how to swim instead - I carry around the ability to do good lap times, but it doesn't hinder my everyday driving experience, in fact it enhances it.

[hornetrider]

RobM77 said:

I assure you I'm banging my head against an even harder wall over here! I just can't believe what I'm reading, especially on a car forum.

Of course everyone's got their own priorities! My point is that x, y, z (and v!) just equal an ordinary car. Almost nothing on the road needs an off roader with big ground clearance, hill descent, locking diffs, etc. It's like using a hammer to write a letter If you need 4WD, then there's the Impreza, Legacy, any Audi Quattro, and a few other cars that provide this. So far we've concluded that something like a Range Rover is useful for towing stuff more than 2 tonnes in weight, or for crossing floods... I can guarantee that the vast majority of drivers do neither. All their requirements would be satisfied by a myriad of other cars on the market, and what's more, they'd be satisfied better and more cheaply. Freedom of choice I understand, but it doesn't stop me pointing out the complete lack of common sense!

I think I give up!

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 12th December 16:29

Who cares if in your eyes x, y and z could equal an ordinary car? It adds up to a Rangie or Land Cruiser or ML in someone elses eyes. Why? Prestige, badge snobbery, interior quality, dealer quality, the whole ownership experience.

Who give a what it is!!! It is THEIR choice and THEIR prerogative.

What if I tell you to sell your sodding Elise cos I think there is no way you will use 100% of that car on the road? A Mk1 MX5 would do exactly the same job (or perhaps even better imo)

Look mate, I'm not some 4x4 lover, I couldn't give a flying as I own an MX5, I just can't believe your bloody mindedness that you appear to know better than everyone else what car will fulfill their needs. Bizarre.

[ehasler]

RobM77 said:

I just can't believe what I'm reading, especially on a car forum.

What? That some people have different needs/wants than you, and they choose to buy a car that fulfils these requirements?

RobM77 said:

Of course everyone's got their own priorities! My point is that x, y, z (and v!) just equal an ordinary car. If you need 4WD, then there's the Impreza, Legacy, any Audi Quattro, and a few other cars that provide this. So far we've concluded that something like a Range Rover is useful for towing stuff more than 2 tonnes in weight, or for crossing floods...

You don't get it do you - sometimes people have requirements that do mean they have perfectly valid reasons for buying an off-roader. Several people on this thread have explained why they've gone for 4x4s, so I'm not just making this up, and they all appear to be equally as enthusiastic about motoring as you! And in your example of a Range Rover, not only are they good at towing large weights, but they are very comfortable to drive in (better than most cars), give you a very good viewing position and have sufficient performance and handling to be more than quick enough for the majority of drivers. OK, there are other cars that do some of this too, but isn't that what freedom of choice is all about?

RobM77 said:

All their requirements would be satisfied by a myriad of other cars on the market, and what's more, they'd be satisfied better and more cheaply. Freedom of choice I understand, but it doesn't stop me pointing out the complete lack of common sense!

There is a lack of common sense here I agree

Do you know what everyone wants from a car? No, of course not! So how you can say what you did above? Some people have requirements (some logical, some subjective) that cannot be satisfied by a myriad of other cars on the market, and these people choose to drive a 4x4.

[hornetrider]

Rob, surely you're trolling? No-one can be this obtuse?

RobM77 said:

But my point is that a good power/weight ratio doesn't hinder you much on the road. You still get lovely feedback and handling in a sports car which you can enjoy,

Which bit of "most people don't give a flying about driving dynamics" do you not understand? You can see therefore that their requirements will be different?

[RobM77]

I simply can't respond to points that have missed my point by such a wide margin, sorry guys.

[GEP]

RobM77 said:

We're talking about active and passive safety here though aren't we? The ultimate in active safety is probably a Caterham or an Elise, and the ultimate in passive safety is probably a Range Rover. Both cars fall down on the opposing discipline quite badly (wikipedia, for example, states that for a car to have good active safety, it must have "a low centre of gravity with good handling characteristics". No need to say why a Caterham has bad passive safety!!). The safest car combines both factors, so is probably something solid, lightish in weight and with keen handling - maybe a Porsche of some description?

I had a near crash a few weeks back when a dozey driver pulled out from the left and forced me into a very sharp swerve in between the car and a metal railing. I know for a fact that had i still been driving my 4x4, it would have resulted in me either in the side of the car, the railing or rolling down the hill!

Edited by GEP on Wednesday 12th December 16:54

[ehasler]

RobM77 said:

But my point is that a good power/weight ratio doesn't hinder you much on the road... ...I carry around the ability to do good lap times, but it doesn't hinder my everyday driving experience, in fact it enhances it.

But what about the lack of passenger seats, low ground clearance, stiff suspension, small boot, hard seats, no climate control? I'd say that would hinder me quite a lot if I wanted to tow my race car in leather seated, air conditioned comfort, with a few mates, on a hot day, across pot-holed roads dotted with speed humps (very common where I live). Or if I just wanted to pick up some furniture from Ikea. All the feedback in the world wouldn't help me with that!

[Hereward]

ehasler said:

RobM77 said:

But my point is that a good power/weight ratio doesn't hinder you much on the road... ...I carry around the ability to do good lap times, but it doesn't hinder my everyday driving experience, in fact it enhances it.

But what about the lack of passenger seats, low ground clearance, stiff suspension, small boot, hard seats, no climate control? I'd say that would hinder me quite a lot if I wanted to tow my race car in leather seated, air conditioned comfort, with a few mates, on a hot day, across pot-holed roads dotted with speed humps (very common where I live). Or if I just wanted to pick up some furniture from Ikea. All the feedback in the world wouldn't help me with that!

Careful; all of those criteria can be met by an A6 Avant. You're not allowed a 4x4.

Ah; Potholes? Audi Allroad. Not a 4x4, though.

Edited by Hereward on Wednesday 12th December 17:01

[andy400]

RobM77 said:

andy400 said:

RobM77 said:

but it doesn't stop me pointing out the complete lack of common sense!

I think I give up!

I think you should give up. Surely lacking in common sense no more than owning a large engined sports/supercar when the highest speed limit in the land is 70mph. 'Track Day' I hear you say? Same thing exists for off-roaders. At least the circumstances could exist to use the full capabilities of a 4x4 legally on the public roads, whereas they never will for a sports car.

But my point is that a good power/weight ratio doesn't hinder you much on the road. You still get lovely feedback and handling in a sports car which you can enjoy, whereas the ground clearance and traction that a big tyred off roader offer really compromise the road driving experience - it's worth it if you go off road (which plenty of people on this thread do), but otherwise pointless. I suppose it's like walking round in a life jacket all the time in case you might fall in some water. Jolly useful for skinny people who live in a windy place near the sea, but for everyone else just cumbersome and pointless. My sports cars qualities are more like knowing how to swim instead - I carry around the ability to do good lap times, but it doesn't hinder my everyday driving experience, in fact it enhances it.

Lifejacket analogy!!????

I don't know how many big 4x4s you've experience of, but at legal speeds there is no compromise in the road driving experience in mine or in any of the others I've driven - esp. in modern Range Rovers etc. You can't go hooning round corners on the limit of adhesion I'll grant you, but how often is that legal/sensible anyway. And to be blunt, I consider my 4x4 to be better and more enjoyable for road driving than my TVR was - simply because I was so bloody frustrated so often at the crap condition and congested state of our roads that prevented me from enjoying it anyway.

[RobM77]

hornetrider said:

Rob, surely you're trolling? No-one can be this obtuse?

RobM77 said:

But my point is that a good power/weight ratio doesn't hinder you much on the road. You still get lovely feedback and handling in a sports car which you can enjoy,

Which bit of "most people don't give a flying about driving dynamics" do you not understand? You can see therefore that their requirements will be different?

yes, of course!!

[A57 HSV]

RobM77, I can assure you that for me & my family, having a Discovery 3 as one of our four vehicles makes far more sense than owning an Elise.
Not least because I'm too tall to be able to physically fit into the drivers seat of an Elise, or sadly a VX as I'd really like a VX Turbo, which IMO are great VFM.
If I had to choose to use just one vehicle, it would have to be the D3 over any other vehicle. It just meets so many of our motoring requirements.
An Elise suits your motoring requirements & that's brilliant. I sometimes wish that my life was as simple to enable me to only require a vehicle with space for just one passenger & a small about of luggage. As it was when I was about 24 years old.
Frankly, I think some of your thoughts about using off-roaders on the road need further consideration before you post them.

[Hooli]

as an ex disco owner ive got to stand up for Rob a bit. i can see his point, personally i wouldnt get a large offroader as a road car UNLESS i needed its extra abilities. they (well mine at least) was slow(ish) a bugger to park (half the windows were metal from offroad wounds) and servicing costs were a lot higher.
but if someone wants one then good luck to them it doesnt bother me. its a choice thing, my choice is no - unless im offroading (as ive never needed to tow much etc) but if they want one then they should get one.

[ehasler]

Hereward said:

Careful; all of those criteria can be met by an A6 Avant. You're not allowed a 4x4.

Ah; Potholes? Audi Allroad. Not a 4x4, though.

But would they look good covered in mud though?

[otolith]

RobM77 said:

You still get lovely feedback and handling in a sports car which you can enjoy

What you and I and most of pistonheads would enjoy as feedback, other people would consider a lack of refinement. Many people really do value insulation over intimacy. A lot of people find a car with sharp turn in "twitchy" and coupled with a mobile rear end "tail happy" or more likely "terrifying". Give them something with sufficient grip, no throttle sensitivity, no feel, a big dead spot in the middle of the steering and nothing but understeer, and they'll praise it as being "planted" or "confidence inspiring". An engine which delivers power through revs is "gutless", whereas one which is ultimately slower but which flatters an inability to be in the correct gear is "punchy". The kind of attitude to good and bad cars found in the enthusiast press is actually a pretty poor match for what Joe Public looks for in a car, and it's not merely ignorance, it's a complete disinterest.

[RobM77]

A57 HSV said:

RobM77, I can assure you that for me & my family, having a Discovery 3 as one of our four vehicles makes far more sense than owning an Elise.
Not least because I'm too tall to be able to physically fit into the drivers seat of an Elise, or sadly a VX as I'd really like a VX Turbo, which IMO are great VFM.
If I had to choose to use just one vehicle, it would have to be the D3 over any other vehicle. It just meets so many of our motoring requirements.
An Elise suits your motoring requirements & that's brilliant. I sometimes wish that my life was as simple to enable me to only require a vehicle with space for just one passenger & a small about of luggage. As it was when I was about 24 years old.
Frankly, I think some of your thoughts about using off-roaders on the road need further consideration before you post them.

I agree with you entirely. I'm not sure you've understood what I meant though (you're not alone, I assure you!!).

A57 HSV said:

If I had to choose to use just one vehicle, it would have to be the D3 over any other vehicle. It just meets so many of our motoring requirements.
An Elise suits your motoring requirements & that's brilliant

That pretty much sums up my point.

If it makes you feel any better though, I can assure you that my Elise doesn't solve all of my motoring requirements, there are few people where that is the case sadly. The Elise won't take my cello, not my electric guitar plus its amp, tow my racing car and also the boot won't do for holidays longer than 2 or 3 days. For that reason I'm buying a cheap four door car and insuring it for a limited mileage for those purposes. I'm glad I've got the space for two road cars though, as I've yet to drive one car that does everything I want a car to do.

[Hereward]

Rob does have a totally valid point; that an estate car (say an A6 Quattro Avant) can do 95% of what a 4x4 can do without the dynamic compromises.

However, Rob is coming across as being unwilling to accept that a person has the right to choose/desire a 4x4 for purely subjective reasons and that in most driving conditions the ride & handling of a 4x4 are totally adequate.

[A57 HSV]

GEP said:

RobM77 said:

We're talking about active and passive safety here though aren't we? The ultimate in active safety is probably a Caterham or an Elise, and the ultimate in passive safety is probably a Range Rover. Both cars fall down on the opposing discipline quite badly (wikipedia, for example, states that for a car to have good active safety, it must have "a low centre of gravity with good handling characteristics". No need to say why a Caterham has bad passive safety!!). The safest car combines both factors, so is probably something solid, lightish in weight and with keen handling - maybe a Porsche of some description?

I had a near crash a few weeks back when a dozey driver pulled out from the left and forced me into a very sharp swerve in between the car and a metal railing. I know for a fact that had i still been driving my 4x4, it would have resulted in me either in the side of the car, the railing or rolling down the hil.

I did have a serious crash almost exactly two years ago. I was driving my HSV & a big van smashed into me. I know for a fact, that if I'd been driving my Discovery 3 I'd not have needed to have had the roof cut off my vehicle to release me & I doubt I'd be sitting here now feeling the twinges in my lower back as a result of the injuries I sustained. One of the paramedics actually told me that I should have been driving a 4X4!
The modern design of the D3, it's safety features & it's extra height would have faired much better in a battle against a Transit sized van.
But I agree that most older design off-roaders are not very safe at all in anything but very low speed collisions.

[Hereward]

I should also add that, on a motorway, I much prefer my Touareg to the E39 M5 it replaced; Higher driving position so I can see over the car in front of me; the ride is smoother and the cabin is much quieter due to the triple rubber door seals.