A green mans view of 4x4s
Discussion
Hereward said:
Rob does have a totally valid point; that an estate car (say an A6 Quattro Avant) can do 95% of what a 4x4 can do without the dynamic compromises.
thanks.Hereward said:
However, Rob is coming across as being unwilling to accept that a person has the right to choose/desire a 4x4 for purely subjective reasons and that in most driving conditions the ride & handling of a 4x4 are totally adequate.
If I've put across that impression then I apologise. That is totally not what I'm saying.Hereward said:
However, Rob is coming across as being unwilling to accept that a person has the right to choose/desire a 4x4 for purely subjective reasons and that in most driving conditions the ride & handling of a 4x4 are totally adequate.
I don't think Rob has actually said that people shouldn't buy whatever the hell they like, he's said that he can't understand why they would not make what seems to him the more logical choice. But car choices are seldom entirely logical, and many of the attributes he values in a car are considered irrelevant or even undesirable to many buyers.RobM77 said:
A57 HSV said:
RobM77, I can assure you that for me & my family, having a Discovery 3 as one of our four vehicles makes far more sense than owning an Elise.
Not least because I'm too tall to be able to physically fit into the drivers seat of an Elise, or sadly a VX as I'd really like a VX Turbo, which IMO are great VFM.
If I had to choose to use just one vehicle, it would have to be the D3 over any other vehicle. It just meets so many of our motoring requirements.
An Elise suits your motoring requirements & that's brilliant. I sometimes wish that my life was as simple to enable me to only require a vehicle with space for just one passenger & a small about of luggage. As it was when I was about 24 years old.
Frankly, I think some of your thoughts about using off-roaders on the road need further consideration before you post them.
I agree with you entirely. I'm not sure you've understood what I meant though (you're not alone, I assure you!!).Not least because I'm too tall to be able to physically fit into the drivers seat of an Elise, or sadly a VX as I'd really like a VX Turbo, which IMO are great VFM.
If I had to choose to use just one vehicle, it would have to be the D3 over any other vehicle. It just meets so many of our motoring requirements.
An Elise suits your motoring requirements & that's brilliant. I sometimes wish that my life was as simple to enable me to only require a vehicle with space for just one passenger & a small about of luggage. As it was when I was about 24 years old.
Frankly, I think some of your thoughts about using off-roaders on the road need further consideration before you post them.
I don't think I do understand you, as earlier you said that points X,Y,Z don't exist. Well to me they clearly do?
A57 HSV said:
If I had to choose to use just one vehicle, it would have to be the D3 over any other vehicle. It just meets so many of our motoring requirements.
An Elise suits your motoring requirements & that's brilliant
That pretty much sums up my point. An Elise suits your motoring requirements & that's brilliant
If it makes you feel any better though, I can assure you that my Elise doesn't solve all of my motoring requirements, there are few people where that is the case sadly. The Elise won't take my cello, not my electric guitar plus its amp, tow my racing car and also the boot won't do for holidays longer than 2 or 3 days. For that reason I'm buying a cheap four door car and insuring it for a limited mileage for those purposes. I'm glad I've got the space for two road cars though, as I've yet to drive one car that does everything I want a car to do.
I've also yet to drive a car that does everything that I want, because one doesn't exist. But my D3 meets the majority of my motoring requirements very well. It would continue to do so even if I never went off-road.
otolith said:
Hereward said:
However, Rob is coming across as being unwilling to accept that a person has the right to choose/desire a 4x4 for purely subjective reasons and that in most driving conditions the ride & handling of a 4x4 are totally adequate.
I don't think Rob has actually said that people shouldn't buy whatever the hell they like, he's said that he can't understand why they would not make what seems to him the more logical choice. But car choices are seldom entirely logical, and many of the attributes he values in a car are considered irrelevant or even undesirable to many buyers.What attributes that I personally want out of a vehicle shouldn't and don't really come into this. Everyone has their own unique set of requirements out of a car, which is an obvious fact I recognise.
It seems to me that people are almost deliberately mis-understanding me so they can argue with me, or using me as a target for the frustrations that greenies give them.
I can assure everyone on this forum that I'm not a greenie, leftie or anything else politically based. I love all things with engines, whether they be sports cars, off roaders, superbikes, cruising bikes, comfy barges, aquatic cars, etc. I was merely trying to explain why and how the extreme views expressed on page one come about - I hope at least some people can understand that.
RobM77 said:
otolith said:
Hereward said:
However, Rob is coming across as being unwilling to accept that a person has the right to choose/desire a 4x4 for purely subjective reasons and that in most driving conditions the ride & handling of a 4x4 are totally adequate.
I don't think Rob has actually said that people shouldn't buy whatever the hell they like, he's said that he can't understand why they would not make what seems to him the more logical choice. But car choices are seldom entirely logical, and many of the attributes he values in a car are considered irrelevant or even undesirable to many buyers.What attributes that I personally want out of a vehicle shouldn't and don't really come into this. Everyone has their own unique set of requirements out of a car, which is an obvious fact I recognise.
It seems to me that people are almost deliberately mis-understanding me so they can argue with me, or using me as a target for the frustrations that greenies give them.
I can assure everyone on this forum that I'm not a greenie, leftie or anything else politically based. I love all things with engines, whether they be sports cars, off roaders, superbikes, cruising bikes, comfy barges, aquatic cars, etc. I was merely trying to explain why and how the extreme views expressed on page one come about - I hope at least some people can understand that.
"Anyone owning an off roader purely for road use must be ready to be laughed at or puzzled over, much like someone who chooses a Chihuahua as a guard dog, or a bench drill as a bottle opener"
...without getting some reaction!
Edited by GetCarter on Wednesday 12th December 18:24
A57 HSV said:
I did have a serious crash almost exactly two years ago. I was driving my HSV & a big van smashed into me. I know for a fact, that if I'd been driving my Discovery 3 I'd not have needed to have had the roof cut off my vehicle to release me & I doubt I'd be sitting here now feeling the twinges in my lower back as a result of the injuries I sustained. One of the paramedics actually told me that I should have been driving a 4X4!
The modern design of the D3, it's safety features & it's extra height would have faired much better in a battle against a Transit sized van.
But I agree that most older design off-roaders are not very safe at all in anything but very low speed collisions.
Sorry to hear that.The modern design of the D3, it's safety features & it's extra height would have faired much better in a battle against a Transit sized van.
But I agree that most older design off-roaders are not very safe at all in anything but very low speed collisions.
My 4x4 wasn't that old, a '99 4.6 HSE with the air suspension. Very nice car it was. Had no need for it whatsover but i just had to own one!
Is even the latest 4x4 really safer than something like an XJ or S-class which are just as huge and air-bagged filled but more agile? I doubt it. Would rather fancy my chance in a nimbler machine with decent brakes & handling myself. Although i have a 2.8 capri so that shows how much i give a shit about that sort of thing!
Edited by GEP on Wednesday 12th December 18:08
Hereward said:
Rob does have a totally valid point; that an estate car (say an A6 Quattro Avant) can do 95% of what a 4x4 can do without the dynamic compromises.
To an extent I logically agree with the above, but It's just too simplistic. The reasons why I have a Discovery 3 instead of a 4x4 estate car such as an A6 Quattro are numerous.
The ability to carry 7 full sized adults & much bigger & heavier loads being just two. Most of the other reasons have been mentioned here already.
It's in part the fault of manufacturers. There are very few big estates on the market. If you need the capacity to carry more than 5 people as well as large & heavy loads, then Volvo will steer you from the V70 towards an XC90 & Merc. will steer you towards an ML or GL if the E Class estate doesn't suffice. Although you can at least now buy a R Class, although IMO you might have as well have the ML or GL as at least you get a bit more flexibility. The R Class is certainly no "green mobile".
We shouldn't over look the fact that many people also simply much prefer the upright seating position that an "off-roader" provides. Which is why the "soft-roader" market is so popular.
As has already been mentioned, on road dynamics are of little concern to much of the motoring public.
So although an A4 Quattro would probably suffice for many owners of "soft-roaders". They actually prefer the configuration of say a Rav4. And so what if they do, the Rav4 is shorter than an A4 Avant & only a few mm wider. It's taller, that's all.
GEP said:
A57 HSV said:
I did have a serious crash almost exactly two years ago. I was driving my HSV & a big van smashed into me. I know for a fact, that if I'd been driving my Discovery 3 I'd not have needed to have had the roof cut off my vehicle to release me & I doubt I'd be sitting here now feeling the twinges in my lower back as a result of the injuries I sustained. One of the paramedics actually told me that I should have been driving a 4X4!
The modern design of the D3, it's safety features & it's extra height would have faired much better in a battle against a Transit sized van.
But I agree that most older design off-roaders are not very safe at all in anything but very low speed collisions.
Sorry to hear that.The modern design of the D3, it's safety features & it's extra height would have faired much better in a battle against a Transit sized van.
But I agree that most older design off-roaders are not very safe at all in anything but very low speed collisions.
My 4x4 wasn't that old, a '99 4.6 HSE with the air suspension. Very nice car it was. Had no need for it whatsover but i just had to own one!
Is even the latest 4x4 really safer than something like an XJ or S-class which are just as huge and air-bagged filled but more agile? I doubt it. Would rather fancy my chance in a nimbler machine with decent brakes & handling myself. Although i have a 2.8 capri so that shows how much i give a shit about that sort of thing!
In some circumstances the S-Class would of course be better in an accident than the D3 & vice versa. In the case of the accident I had with a big van, I'd opt for the D3.
Here's hoping this is all hypothetical of course!!!
I don't want an A4 Quattro. I want a Range Rover.
I don't want a BMW 540 Estate. I want a Range Rover.
I don't want (despite owning an S1, S2 and a 340R in the past) an Elise. I want a Range Rover.
Guess why I want a Range Rover (apart from annoying Ken Livingbone)?
Because I like them. Simple answer really.
I don't need my everyday vehicle to be the best handling, most communicative or fastest car on the road. I need it to be comfy, easy to drive, versatile and have a feel good factor.
My Range Rover gives me this. I don't do enough miles per year for fuel consumption to be an issue for the either the Earth's resources or my wallet. I don't feel the need to think I'm some sort of driving god on the Tescos run, so the car's ability to lap Silverstone quicker than Veyron isn't of importance. The only time I've ever had concerns about the Range Rover's high centre of gravity is when I was in low box attempting to recover from a wet chalk and clay side-slope.
Things like Elises are very good...at being Elises. That's all they do. But ask them to fulfill the role of my family car, they'd be lacking as soon as you can say 'kids and a dog'.
I truly, truly can't think of another car (except perhaps a Discovery 3) that would give me answers to all of my motoring needs and provides another hobby (see page three of this thread for a different sort of 'track' driving) too.
Other cars, such as the ones mentioned by all and sundry above, are good at what they do. They just don't have the all round capability of my Range Rover. They can only do one or two of the jobs needed by my lifestyle. I'd need to buy more than one car to match up.
Sure, a 1 litre Micra would be great on the school run. A 540 BMW would take all of us on holiday. An Elise would give me another motoring based hobby. An old Defender would be great to use off road. A transit van would be good to take stuff to the dump. A flatbed would come in handy to tow trailers with. An old school Bentley would be lovely to swish to Goodwood in.
Or I could get just the one car.
I don't want a BMW 540 Estate. I want a Range Rover.
I don't want (despite owning an S1, S2 and a 340R in the past) an Elise. I want a Range Rover.
Guess why I want a Range Rover (apart from annoying Ken Livingbone)?
Because I like them. Simple answer really.
I don't need my everyday vehicle to be the best handling, most communicative or fastest car on the road. I need it to be comfy, easy to drive, versatile and have a feel good factor.
My Range Rover gives me this. I don't do enough miles per year for fuel consumption to be an issue for the either the Earth's resources or my wallet. I don't feel the need to think I'm some sort of driving god on the Tescos run, so the car's ability to lap Silverstone quicker than Veyron isn't of importance. The only time I've ever had concerns about the Range Rover's high centre of gravity is when I was in low box attempting to recover from a wet chalk and clay side-slope.
Things like Elises are very good...at being Elises. That's all they do. But ask them to fulfill the role of my family car, they'd be lacking as soon as you can say 'kids and a dog'.
I truly, truly can't think of another car (except perhaps a Discovery 3) that would give me answers to all of my motoring needs and provides another hobby (see page three of this thread for a different sort of 'track' driving) too.
Other cars, such as the ones mentioned by all and sundry above, are good at what they do. They just don't have the all round capability of my Range Rover. They can only do one or two of the jobs needed by my lifestyle. I'd need to buy more than one car to match up.
Sure, a 1 litre Micra would be great on the school run. A 540 BMW would take all of us on holiday. An Elise would give me another motoring based hobby. An old Defender would be great to use off road. A transit van would be good to take stuff to the dump. A flatbed would come in handy to tow trailers with. An old school Bentley would be lovely to swish to Goodwood in.
Or I could get just the one car.
RobM77 said:
ehasler said:
RobM77 said:
All I've said is that an off roader with lots of ground clearance doesn't handle or ride as well as a normal car (obviously!), and that a vehicle weighing 2 tonnes is slower and doesn't handle as well as an equivalent vehicle weighing 1.5 tonnes (err.. that's obvious as well!). Those are facts, not opinion. Surely we're all agreed on that?
And you are wrong.A Range Rover (can't speak for any other 4x4 as I've not tried them) rides better than most cars on the road. Depending on the model, they can also be quicker than many other smaller, lighter cars, and as I mentioned in my previous post, one of them (Cayenne Turbo I think) has beaten an Elise around Bedford so is certainly not slower than every car weighing 1.5 tonnes.
You're basing your whole argument on "facts" that just aren't true.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 12th December 15:27
But please go away and think long and hard about the difference between fact and opinion before you decide in your opinion if it's worth contributing to this topic anymore.
GKP- Well said!
I have recently bought a s2 Discovery and so far have enjoyed every minute of it.
So what if it wallows around corners and isnt as responsive as a 4ltr sportscar.
It does what I want from it and bugger off if you dont like it.
Theres very few cars that can tow over 2.5 (LR's can generally tow 3.5)tonnes and get 8 wheels,100 ltrs of fuel and tools in the back. The disco is one of the only vehicles in my price range that can do this AND that I would want to drive around day to day. I dont care if it doesnt do 100mph or get to 60 in 3 seconds, I did all that 10 years ago with bikes (still got one but dont ride much because I like having a licence!)
Bollox to the greenies that say I shouldnt be driving one, show me a more capable vehicle and I might listen. Its very easy to criticise people but unless you have a solution then SHUT THE FECK UP! If I caught one of the buggers letting my tyres down Id park it on 'em. Their ignorance is more dangerous than the cars themselves.
If, and I am not pointing fingers at anyone, you want to drive a lightweight sports car on the road then thats fine, but the thought of driving what is basically a trackday car daily would not excite me. One of my customers owned a GT2 porsche as his daily driver (now replaced by a GT3). The car was bloody uncomfortable for a passenger but the guy loved it and did over 70k.
4x4's again get the bum deal, if little Timmys mum wants to take him to school in one then fine. Just like the sunday morning blat in the sportscar. You could argue the sunday jaunt isnt necessary whereas the schoolrun is.....
But I won't because working in motorsport you realise once the focus has moved from the "essential" road users, the extreemists will start on trackdays and keep going till there is nothing left. At the moment its noise levels that are causing owners to not race, after that it will be pollution. Just watch. I do a few races in the UK but most in Europe, the UK ones are all worried about upsetting the Nimbys that complain about the very people that keep their local restaurants and hotels in business.
I have recently bought a s2 Discovery and so far have enjoyed every minute of it.
So what if it wallows around corners and isnt as responsive as a 4ltr sportscar.
It does what I want from it and bugger off if you dont like it.
Theres very few cars that can tow over 2.5 (LR's can generally tow 3.5)tonnes and get 8 wheels,100 ltrs of fuel and tools in the back. The disco is one of the only vehicles in my price range that can do this AND that I would want to drive around day to day. I dont care if it doesnt do 100mph or get to 60 in 3 seconds, I did all that 10 years ago with bikes (still got one but dont ride much because I like having a licence!)
Bollox to the greenies that say I shouldnt be driving one, show me a more capable vehicle and I might listen. Its very easy to criticise people but unless you have a solution then SHUT THE FECK UP! If I caught one of the buggers letting my tyres down Id park it on 'em. Their ignorance is more dangerous than the cars themselves.
If, and I am not pointing fingers at anyone, you want to drive a lightweight sports car on the road then thats fine, but the thought of driving what is basically a trackday car daily would not excite me. One of my customers owned a GT2 porsche as his daily driver (now replaced by a GT3). The car was bloody uncomfortable for a passenger but the guy loved it and did over 70k.
4x4's again get the bum deal, if little Timmys mum wants to take him to school in one then fine. Just like the sunday morning blat in the sportscar. You could argue the sunday jaunt isnt necessary whereas the schoolrun is.....
But I won't because working in motorsport you realise once the focus has moved from the "essential" road users, the extreemists will start on trackdays and keep going till there is nothing left. At the moment its noise levels that are causing owners to not race, after that it will be pollution. Just watch. I do a few races in the UK but most in Europe, the UK ones are all worried about upsetting the Nimbys that complain about the very people that keep their local restaurants and hotels in business.
mgv8dave said:
i would love a more economical car
wife has a grand jeep £38k new in nov 99 with 56 thousand and full dealer history etc
trade in we were told against a Subaru forester ...... £2,500 to £3K
so thats it i will just warm the planet for a few more years !
I hate to disappoint you - no warming - but no worries either, the plant food gas WILL do great things for trees and crops wife has a grand jeep £38k new in nov 99 with 56 thousand and full dealer history etc
trade in we were told against a Subaru forester ...... £2,500 to £3K
so thats it i will just warm the planet for a few more years !
^^Exactly, well said.
Voicing opinions & making assumptions about what other people legally drive is a dangerous thing to do.
Where do you stop? You could make similar statements about other material things.
I know many people who have at least one or more spare bedrooms. These rarely get used. So, 95% of the time a house with one less bedroom would do everything that their house does & be cheaper to run etc.! Are they stupid to live in such a house? Maybe, but the choice is theirs, regardless of what anyone else thinks.
My wife has loads of hand bags. 95% of the time just the one bag would suffice & do the job perfectly well. But guess what, she likes owning loads of different bags. I would never consider doubting her judgement on this, because I have a shed full of wheels & tyres, which she probably thinks is just as crazy!
So let other people drive whatever suits them & should you disagree, that's fine, just keep your opinions to yourself.
Voicing opinions & making assumptions about what other people legally drive is a dangerous thing to do.
Where do you stop? You could make similar statements about other material things.
I know many people who have at least one or more spare bedrooms. These rarely get used. So, 95% of the time a house with one less bedroom would do everything that their house does & be cheaper to run etc.! Are they stupid to live in such a house? Maybe, but the choice is theirs, regardless of what anyone else thinks.
My wife has loads of hand bags. 95% of the time just the one bag would suffice & do the job perfectly well. But guess what, she likes owning loads of different bags. I would never consider doubting her judgement on this, because I have a shed full of wheels & tyres, which she probably thinks is just as crazy!
So let other people drive whatever suits them & should you disagree, that's fine, just keep your opinions to yourself.
Edited by A57 HSV on Wednesday 12th December 23:46
Wow! long thread.
I notice when ever this topic crops on this or any other forum one thing remains constant.
You never see a post from a 4x4 owner saying that others should or should not drive this or that type of car. Apart from having to suffer criticism from all and sundry most owners prefer to get on with their lives and are perfectly happy and comfortable with their vehicles.
If anyone can't see the point of a 4x4 or it's not their 'cup of tea' don't buy one, it's not compulsory.
I enjoy owning and driving my car as I hope other PH's enjoy their cars.
I notice when ever this topic crops on this or any other forum one thing remains constant.
You never see a post from a 4x4 owner saying that others should or should not drive this or that type of car. Apart from having to suffer criticism from all and sundry most owners prefer to get on with their lives and are perfectly happy and comfortable with their vehicles.
If anyone can't see the point of a 4x4 or it's not their 'cup of tea' don't buy one, it's not compulsory.
I enjoy owning and driving my car as I hope other PH's enjoy their cars.
Edited by colonel c on Thursday 13th December 00:47
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