RE: PH Heroes: BMW E39 M5
Discussion
Trust me, you know it makes sense! 
roadcraft said:
derestrictor said:
What sets the E39 M5 apart, ime, is the damping
Couldn’t agree more with that, the damping is a work of genius and so much better than the new M3’s. As a whole the car is something of a masterpiece and I still have to pinch myself to check I’m not dreaming that I really bought a 2001MY car still under approved-used warranty for £16k just over a year ago. I’ve had plenty of need of that warranty, mostly due to dealer failings (not correcting minor faults that then led to more major ones) but also due to a failed cam position sensor on one of the banks which would’ve brought me quite a painful bill. The warranty renewal for cars with over 60k on the clock is just under £1900 but my advice would be to pay it at least for the first year or two of ownership (but note that warranty renewal is not possible past 100k miles).To put into perspective how good this car is, I’m a current member of Ecurie25 and formerly of P1, and one of my favourite games is to take out club cars and see how I feel about getting back into the M5. A 997 C2 is possibly a better all-round drivers’ car – it beats the M5 by a slender margin on build quality and by a country mile on steering feel – but factor in the rear seats and Q-car looks and I still favour the M5. Getting out of Ecurie’s 997 GT3 after 1000 miles in North Wales I was hugely relieved to go for a run in the BM and realise I didn’t need to convince my wife that we needed a remortgage. While the GT3 is (a little) faster and has amazing body control on choppy surfaces for something so tautly sprung, it somehow doesn’t have the kind of character that the M5 has in bucketloads thanks to its old-school engine note and handling balance. The grin factor is simply bigger. (And if you really want to get grinning, head to an airfield and it will go sideways forever!)
In some ways the cars that most resemble the M5 are the big GT’s such as the 550M or the V12 Astons. Big, express-train-style power delivery that impresses most on fast, sweeping A-roads, but for a fraction of the money and without the “arrest me” profile.
The most interesting comparison was against the new M3. The performance of the two cars is nearly identical, though perhaps the M5’s wider torque spread gives it an edge in road driving. The noise of the new engine at top end is really something though! However, unfortunately BMW appear to have forgotten what they once knew about ride/handling compromises because the M3 is horribly fidgety compared the M5 and is prone to nasty high-speed vertical heave movements on roughish A/B-roads that the M5 simply soaks up. The M3 can’t keep all its wheels on the ground in these circumstances, it’s really pretty bad, and that’s on the softest of the three damper settings; it only gets worse from there. The steering is a touch more feelsome than the M5’s, but it’s marginal. On balance, the M5 is head and shoulders the better car, IMO.
Finally, a few bits of hopefully-useful info for anyone contemplating purchasing one of these beauties:
1. Find a warranted car unless you can comfortably swallow a big (e.g., £5k) bill should the need arise. If you really can’t afford to spend a couple of grand on the warranty, think carefully about taking on an E39 M5.
2. VERY IMPORTANTLY it is ONLY possible to renew a running warranty on a used M-car. Once the warranty has lapsed, even by a day, BMW will not sell you a warranty renewal. The only way the car can go under warranty again is if a main dealer buys and resells it. Be very careful to check the paperwork on the day of purchase to make sure that the “warranted” car really still is. Obviously many owners wait until near the end of the warranty period before putting cars up for sale, which can give the buyer some serious bargaining power if it’s literally just a few days away from lapsing.
3. To keep the warranty current you will need to go to a main dealer for service (at £120+ ph labour rates) but for any other work I would recommend a decent specialist (I have used Munich Legends on a couple of occasions and they seem very good).
4. Oil use is a common issue. Mine does a litre in 500-600 miles (but maybe I should see about that engine swap under warranty, now I’ve read edcase’s post)
5. There were engine changes for the 2001 model year that are supposed to mitigate the VANOS failure issues, so best to stick to those cars. Some say to avoid cars that have then had VANOS replacements, but I’m not sure I’d worry too much about that. You also get a better interior, better headlights and a few other niceties with the 2001MY cars.
6. The upgrade audio system is well worth it, but does cost you a bit of height in the boot
7. The car makes a great daily driver but fuel consumption around town is terrible (I see 10-11mpg on a tank if I don’t leave London) and it’s hard to keep the car pristine. The alloys are distressingly easy to damage on the kerb.
8. I found insurance to be quite reasonable, even parked on the street in Bermondsey (under £800 quid, and I’m 41 and have 6 points)
9. The AP’s are good, but not essential for road driving unless you’re a person who’s very hard on the brakes, but they do improve the rather soft-feeling pedal.
10. Silverstone is basically the same colour that most/all 70’s 3.0l CSLs were made in, so it’s a highly cred colour for an M-car, it’s not just some girly metallic sky-blue as some people might have you believe
Anyway, hope that helps, and encourages somebody to seek out and enjoy one of these superb vehicles.
Mike
Would you believe BMW's own tolerance on oil consumption is something ridiculous like 1l per 300 miles, so you may be over the tolerance slighty. Worth a shot though! My new engine varies between 750 miles and 1500 miles dependent on the type of driving I'm doing, so they are naturally very thirsty for the black stuff.
havoc said:
eowen said:
I had a 2000 M5...
Mine used up (under warranty), Vanos (x2), new rear diff, new drivers door seal, MAF's, rear suspension bushes, and two alloys (due to pitting). All in all I reckon'd with labour, about £11k's worth.
Mine used up (under warranty), Vanos (x2), new rear diff, new drivers door seal, MAF's, rear suspension bushes, and two alloys (due to pitting). All in all I reckon'd with labour, about £11k's worth.
So what you're saying is "buy the ****ing warranty". Exactly how much would said warranty be on a 2000/01 car?!?
I think BMW's decision to put an excess on the M division cars warranty extentions was a mistake. It shows they have no faith in their top end product, and also shows that dealers are just exchange artists. In addtion, why should an M car owner pay the first 250 for a failing part that is common accross a model range - such as the sat nav for example??
eowen said:
I think BMW's decision to put an excess on the M division cars warranty extentions was a mistake. It shows they have no faith in their top end product, and also shows that dealers are just exchange artists. In addtion, why should an M car owner pay the first 250 for a failing part that is common accross a model range - such as the sat nav for example??
The cost and the excess are two reasons why I'm having to tell the wife that there's no way in hell we're getting an E46 M3. Aside from purchase cost, the running costs would then prove to be c. double that of the S2000...havoc said:
The cost and the excess are two reasons why I'm having to tell the wife that there's no way in hell we're getting an E46 M3. Aside from purchase cost, the running costs would then prove to be c. double that of the S2000...
but youd get better mph in a M3, sell it like that 
When the E39 M5 warranty was only £690 ish it was an absolute bargain. Mine has had over £13k or warranty work done on it - mainly in the first year that I bought it SH from BMW. It was great - in fact I extended it three times and lasted all the way to 150k miles and paid for a raft of repairs, big and small. Now one of the biggest 'risks' with these cars is the price of mechanical repairs and to be honest of the 5 M5s I have known ( as in known their owners), 3 of them have required new engines around the 125k miles - each with cylinder head cracks.
Choose wisely are my only words. Mine is on 190k now. Still drives sweetly - though it now needs some suspension work - rattly front end. Oil is another issue. I tend to buy 10w60 from Opie oils. I have bought a fair few 16l cases from them over the last few years...
Choose wisely are my only words. Mine is on 190k now. Still drives sweetly - though it now needs some suspension work - rattly front end. Oil is another issue. I tend to buy 10w60 from Opie oils. I have bought a fair few 16l cases from them over the last few years...
Edited by drivin_me_nuts on Monday 31st December 17:08
stuthemong said:
havoc said:
The cost and the excess are two reasons why I'm having to tell the wife that there's no way in hell we're getting an E46 M3. Aside from purchase cost, the running costs would then prove to be c. double that of the S2000...
but youd get better mph in a M3, sell it like that First - WGAF - I can lose my license quite happily in any of our current cars, and having passengered in an M3 it doesn't feel much more accelerative than the S2000 (once that car's in it's stride). And it (m3) feels a much heavier car. Probably be great fun to drift though...albeit a little expensive in tyres...
Second - I'd be surprised. 1,265kg and a 2.0 VTEC, vs 1,5__kg and a double-VANOS 3.2...I've had 31 from the S on a long-run, and never less than 22/23.
Finally...SHE is the one that wants the M3 (cabrio for preference!)...I'm not that fussed (always preferred the E39...).
test drove 3 of them and came so so close to buying one 4 years ago when they started to look like bargains, a few months before chris harris got on the bandwagon iirc
as others have said what stays with you is the supension balance and body control and of course that engine. They always feel a fair bit quicker than the bhp/ton would suggest, damm fast in fact for a 4 door family car and like many BMWs of that era, in a corner the sum total of the damping, spring rates, feel of the chassis just makes them feel so 'right'. Arguably the finest all round 5 seat road car ever and imo only marred by the lacklustre gearchange quality and baulk at low speeds. The poor steering feel I can live accept, you only get that with a porsche or a lotus these days.
as others have said what stays with you is the supension balance and body control and of course that engine. They always feel a fair bit quicker than the bhp/ton would suggest, damm fast in fact for a 4 door family car and like many BMWs of that era, in a corner the sum total of the damping, spring rates, feel of the chassis just makes them feel so 'right'. Arguably the finest all round 5 seat road car ever and imo only marred by the lacklustre gearchange quality and baulk at low speeds. The poor steering feel I can live accept, you only get that with a porsche or a lotus these days.
Edited by jackal on Monday 31st December 19:15
Steering feel is due to the recirculating (try typing that after 6 glasses of champers!!!) ball and is dramatically improved by pressing the sport button.
Gearshift I agree is agricultural at best, but again its improved with a rogue short shift kit and upgraded mounts. It's never going to be great unfortunately but it does make a fair difference.
Gearshift I agree is agricultural at best, but again its improved with a rogue short shift kit and upgraded mounts. It's never going to be great unfortunately but it does make a fair difference.
havoc said:
mph? mpg?
First - WGAF - I can lose my license quite happily in any of our current cars, and having passengered in an M3 it doesn't feel much more accelerative than the S2000 (once that car's in it's stride). And it (m3) feels a much heavier car. Probably be great fun to drift though...albeit a little expensive in tyres...
Second - I'd be surprised. 1,265kg and a 2.0 VTEC, vs 1,5__kg and a double-VANOS 3.2...I've had 31 from the S on a long-run, and never less than 22/23.
Finally...SHE is the one that wants the M3 (cabrio for preference!)...I'm not that fussed (always preferred the E39...).
I meant mpg, sorry.First - WGAF - I can lose my license quite happily in any of our current cars, and having passengered in an M3 it doesn't feel much more accelerative than the S2000 (once that car's in it's stride). And it (m3) feels a much heavier car. Probably be great fun to drift though...albeit a little expensive in tyres...
Second - I'd be surprised. 1,265kg and a 2.0 VTEC, vs 1,5__kg and a double-VANOS 3.2...I've had 31 from the S on a long-run, and never less than 22/23.
Finally...SHE is the one that wants the M3 (cabrio for preference!)...I'm not that fussed (always preferred the E39...).
I was looking at a s2K, but on various formums, and talking to owners, 20mpg was to be expected if you used the revs and let vtec kick in (yo). M3 returned 22mpg driven like a twit (redlined everywhere). If you are cruising, 30mpg no problems, 35 if you go slower (70-75mph).
The M3's 3.2 is amazingly efficient for the power, whilst the s2K isn't IMO, I really think a M3 would provide slightly better mpg than you get from the s2K
TIGA84,
Estoril+champagne is lovely though. I must say, I would go estoril, but I'd be looking at silverstone/silverstone I Think
Edited by stuthemong on Wednesday 2nd January 13:46
Agree it is a great car. I sold mine when I couldn't stomach forking out for the 2K warranty or the sleepless nights worring about the next £1500 service when another part of the suspension needed replacing. Not only was the newer warranty more expensive with an excess of £250, it actually didn't cover many of the things that were likely to go wrong. Also, around this neck of the woods (SW London) the opportunities to drive it properly were non-existent so I might as well have been driving a 525i most of the time.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff