"Flappy paddle" Gearboxes are crap? I think not......

"Flappy paddle" Gearboxes are crap? I think not......

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Discussion

TomM

Original Poster:

662 posts

194 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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Just read a Sunday supplement with James Martin (TV Chef) doing a right up on the Mk5 Golf GTI, and he slates the sequential gearbox (DSG in this case) and states that all "flappy paddle" gearboxes "just dont work"

I know Mr Martin has a nice collection of exotica, and will have driven plenty of cars but I just dont understand this. I have driven quite a few cars with said paddle shift boxes, including a fair few supercars on various track days etc, and I have been totally sold by all of them - the ability to shift with your hands on the wheel is awesome and apart from the jerky change in some I really have found the entire experience hard to fault. I have lived with the SMG box and loved it.

I know everyone has thier own driving style etc, and everyone prefers different things but has everyone been "Clarksonised" into saying these gearboxes are crap? The DSG has won high acclaim worlwide, and the SMG (although I hated it at first) once your used to it is fantastic. Purists will say manuals every time - but just curious if its just me that questions it every time they get bashed!

Given the choice - wuold you take an F1 style box or manual?

r5gttgaz

7,897 posts

219 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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If the shift was like a 430 Scuderia I'd take the paddles every time.

stephen300o

15,464 posts

227 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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I think it's just the old dears that have spent a life time perfecting heel'n'toe they don't want to face that its now redundant.wink

sadako

7,080 posts

237 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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I found the paddle was not easy to remember which was the right paddle with the wheel turned, and I kept catching my hands on the paddles when trying to move the wheel quickly when I tried using them for the first time. Perhaps button shift would be a bit better. I get on with the smart's sequential stick fine, although the stick itself could be placed higher.

RDMcG

19,093 posts

206 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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I have a 2006 M6 and a 2008 GT3 RS among other cars. Recognizing that SMG has its limitations in terms of driivng in traffic for instance, it is an entirely different matter driven hard. Set at L5 it is unbeleivably precise and quick in a performance driving situation. This "flappy:" descripton seems nonsense to me.

Is it as satisfying as the 6 speed in the RS?..well ,it depends. I can shift far faster and more precisely with the SMG, but using old skills in the RS is satisfying. I will keep the RS indeifinitely but will unhesitatingly buy the 998 RS whenever it shows up , and you can bet it will be a DSG. DSG boxes will continue to improve and the old manuals will go away, just as excellent items like Leicas,light meters,bolt action rifles, and clockwork toys did.

Do I love the RS? sure!...but I know it is probably one of the last standard shift cars I will buy.

JumJum

347 posts

257 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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The DSG box is supposed to be very very good, getting excellent praise and thier have been tests showing it quicker round a track than a clutch car.

I had a M3 with a SMG2 box, was excellent, great on track days. The DSG is supposed to be better than that.

Huliganov

319 posts

194 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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If this was the year 1998 instead of 2008 and F1-style gearboxes were just making an appearance (ala Ferrari F355 F1) then I might understand the point some critics were making. However, some 10 years of constant development, not to mention leaps and bounds in technological advancement in such investements has reduced those criticisms to nothing more than pretty baseless fallacies.


Polarbert

17,923 posts

230 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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I wouldn't say they are 'crap' but they are bit too artificial. There is nothing like changing gear your self with the clutch and gearstick. Its all part of driving.


I'd never take a flappy paddle over a manual on something even slightly sporting. I think it would completely ruin the experience for me.

Gorvid

22,226 posts

224 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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Ladies and Gentlemen....

My I present. For your entertainment......

Polarbert....
The angriest man in the world...........clap

Polarbert

17,923 posts

230 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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Feck off Jon.
laugh

andygo

6,786 posts

254 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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What?

biglepton

5,042 posts

200 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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Hmmm. . . . I really liked the VAG DSG in a Golf GTi I tried, but as a rule I'm not a fan. I haven't driven a Ferrari F1 box but I didn't like the e-gear in the Gallardo. I can see the point of them in supercars you can use everyday like an M5, but my personal preference in a proper supercar would be a manual, just coz it might be slower, but I like it more.

Maybe they are better the more time you spend with them as I've only done a few hundred miles with that type of box.

TomM

Original Poster:

662 posts

194 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
quotequote all
Good, Iam not on my own here then! biggrin

I agree about the E36 M3 SMG, that was a pig - but that was also 10 years ago. The new SMG took me a few days to get used to, but when I did I loved - and still do. I was lucky enough to drive a Murcielago around a track with E-Gear - and that was amazing, certainly didnt want to be taking my hands off the wheel if I could help it!

I still enjoy driving a manual and understand people who love them, but saying as a technolgy sequential paddle shift boxes dont work - I dont understand.

Also nice to have an auto in traffic - saves the Arnie left leg syndrome biggrin

Futuramic

1,763 posts

204 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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RDMcG said "just as excellent items like Leicas,light meters,bolt action rifles, and clockwork toys did."

Actually none of those things have gone away. It is still more than possible to buy a new 35 mm Leica, with a light meter if you want one. Most of the top sniper and hunting rifles are bolt action, many shooters dislike having a semi-auto in such applications.

As for clockwork toys, yup they still exist.

Thus the argument about flappy paddles continues. I'm sure the new double-clutched boxes are fantastic but they aren't the SAME. Something crucial has been lost in another case of technology isolating the driver from his car.

To continue with the shooting analogy it is now possible to get entirely accurate optical sights and imaging systems; through which it is almost impossible to miss. However getting a good grouping with an iron-sighted SMLE is regarded as more of an achievement.

The same goes for paddle shifting, it's a lot easier but is it as fun? Perhaps it seems a bit hollow knowing that a computer has just done all of the hard work for you - that no skill was required at all. To my mind one may as well be driving an automatic, even the old Borg Warners had a low-hold position.

But then perhaps I'm old fashioned.


J111

3,354 posts

214 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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If he's talking subjectively, fine. For me they rob a little of the intensity of driving on a twisty road or track, and I feel that a supercar's gearstick should clack through a metal gate.

If he's talking objectively, though, then it's just boocks. The DSG works beautifully. It appears to be reliable, and it's both quick and smooth. It's certainly better than a traditional auto, and claims that it's quicker round a track aren't hard to credit.

Maxwedge

361 posts

206 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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reverse is dodgy and the hand/paddle position is a little awkward...sequential is the way to go.

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Sunday 20th January 2008
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I'll post these generalisations and stereotypes as I see them, and you are welcome to agree / comment / ignore as you see fit.

Many "flappy" shifts (E46 M3, VW DSG, Ferrari / Maser etc) are very very good, and can shift far more cleanly and smoothly than many of the normal people that buy the cars would be able to in a manual.

Some can be a pain in stop start traffic.

The general consensus that "ALL FLAPPY PADDLES ARE SHITE, AND A STICK SHIFT GIVES A BETTER DRIVING EXPERIENCE" are readers and viewers of Clarkson, EVO, Sunday Supliments, repeating and reiterating something based on little or no experience.

DavidUK

130 posts

196 months

Monday 21st January 2008
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Polarbert said:
I wouldn't say they are 'crap' but they are bit too artificial. There is nothing like changing gear your self with the clutch and gearstick. Its all part of driving.


I'd never take a flappy paddle over a manual on something even slightly sporting. I think it would completely ruin the experience for me.
Do you start your engine with a key or a crank handle?

thinfourth2

32,414 posts

203 months

Monday 21st January 2008
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DavidUK said:
Do you start your engine with a key or a crank handle?
What a wonderful analogy

Yep i start my car with a key

But i have also handcranked many engines into life and while pushing a button to start an engine is without a doudt very easy. However the satisfaction from getting it just right and the engine firing into life from swinging the starter handle properly and dropping the decompression lever at just the right point and the engine firing into life, when it could of gone so wrong with the engine kicking back and breaking your thumb is so much more then pushing a button.

So while a electric starter is without a doubt better is it more fun?

I think exactly the same argument could be used for flappy paddle boxes it is not the factors of efficiency that are easily measured but the more subtle things of involvement and satisfaction. For a car that is meant to be a machine of enjoyment i think that involvement and fun must rate way higher then matters of efficiency and performance

D_T_W

2,502 posts

214 months

Monday 21st January 2008
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Polarbert said:
I wouldn't say they are 'crap' but they are bit too artificial. There is nothing like changing gear your self with the clutch and gearstick. Its all part of driving.


I'd never take a flappy paddle over a manual on something even slightly sporting. I think it would completely ruin the experience for me.
yes

Don't care how good they become, i'd rather have a clutch and gearstick as well. I've only driven 1 DSG equipped car, a SEAT Leon 2.0 FSI, and the gearbox did nothing but drive me insane. Pulling out of junctions when i want to be in second, the blooy thing would hold second, then the moment i go for the throttle, it bangs it into first and i'm kangaroo'ing like a bloody learner. Also, slow speed manouvering was a right pain in the arse.

Give me control of the clutch pedal and put paddles for the gearchange on the wheel with me in complete control of what gear i want i might consider it, but until that happens i'll stick with a proper manual