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Irrotational
356 posts
57 months
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Beemer 5 - you just sound like someone who has got very used to driving diesels...If you want to just shove your foot to the floor at 2k rpm, wait for the turbo lag (minimal these days) and then fly off into the distance then get a turbo diesel... If you want to drive a car that actually feels and sounds like it is accelerating then get an NA petrol car. It's just different horses for different courses - describing NA cars as laggy, because you're bogged down in low revs is just silly. As previous posters have said, it is as silly as claiming diesels have no top end power and run out of revs... Different engines, different charateristics and different driving styles needed - if you love one of them then that's fine, but it doesn't mean the others are wrong. 
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Mr2Mike
9,480 posts
124 months
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Beemer-5 said: Maybe not, technically, but the result on the road is the same, bugger all happens for a period of time. Lag is just a word. Yes, lag is a word just as "you're in the wrong gear" are all words. Lag is used to describe the delay you get in power applied when you put your foot on the throttle. For a normally aspirated or supercharged petrol with the increase in wheel torque is as near instantaneous as makes no difference. For a turbocharged engine running above the boost threshold, there is a perceivable delay when you open the throttle to when you get a significant increase in wheel torque. This is lag. You seem to be simply referring to running in too high a gear to give the required acceleration; dropping a gear in a manual (the very thought of this seems to cause diesel owners nightmares), or depressing the throttle hard enough to cause an auto box to kickdown will fix the problem.
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StottyZr
4,094 posts
32 months
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The terminology being used is causing confusion. Beemer5 I know what you mean, your referring to where the power is found on a N/A petrol (i.e the top of the rev range) and waiting for the revs to build before you get power. This is not the same as "lag" which the 123d does have (granted significantly less than you stereotypical deisel, but about the same as turbo petrol)
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RobCrezz
7,554 posts
77 months
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Beemer-5 said: and Mitsubishi Evo motors didn't stand a chance. THAT is how good the bi-turbo diesels now are.  Dont be silly.
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vinnie83
2,147 posts
62 months
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RobCrezz said: Beemer-5 said: and Mitsubishi Evo motors didn't stand a chance. THAT is how good the bi-turbo diesels now are.  Dont be silly. From a technology point of view, I can believe it. BMW have always been at the forefront of engine technology. AMG were making bigger and more powerful engines (still are) but BMW has won many awards for their technologically superior engines. To add - I have had an AMG and love them too, so I am not siding with BMW blindly!
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Beemer-5
6,324 posts
83 months
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RobCrezz said:  Dont be silly. That makes the experts who decided the prize silly then?
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Beemer-5
6,324 posts
83 months
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Irrotational. Take a look at the cars i have owned since 1973. Then consider if i might know just a tad about driving them. Just a tad! Cheers.
I have owned tons of N/A petrol cars, from 49cc to 8.3 litres and, unless they have huge capacity, they are always disappointing, power-wise. Nothing, nothing, oh maybe here it comes, oh yes more revs needed, scream, scream, oh yes, that's quite reasonable i suppose, change gear quick to avoid the limiter. Turbo power is wayyyyy better unless you can find a lightweight car with 5 plus litres.
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philmots
2,503 posts
129 months
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I find turbo petrols are the perfect compramise... Low down grunt of a diesel but with a decent useable rev range.
My old Saab did 100mph in 3rd gear, made 390lbft at 2.5k and held 300hp from 4000 to 6000 revs.. You could plant it in 3rd at 40mph and the acceleration was relentless till the limiter. It'd take a very impressive diesel to make useable power for such a huge range.
Saying that as super-effective as it was, it was so boring. so was my Megane F1 before it 260hp/300lbft... So now I've bought (out of choice!!) a very revvy 2.0 N/A Clio 197. It lacks the grunt yeah but it's a stack more fun and I'm a lot less likely to get in trouble with the law.
It's more than fast enough in every day driving just keeping it below 4k... You dont need any more power! A 1.2 would be adequate from A to B.
If I need a bit more go to over take I'll change down or on a short slip road I'll rev it out to the limiter. No issue.
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s m
8,110 posts
72 months
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Beemer-5 said: Irrotational. Take a look at the cars i have owned since 1973. Then consider if i might know just a tad about driving them. Just a tad! Cheers. Off-topic, that's an interesting selection of cars! There's a few there I'd like to try  Anyway, back to the arguing about power delivery ......... 
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Beemer-5
6,324 posts
83 months
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I am fortunate in that i get to spend a lot of time in car-friendly, cheap-fuel, many empty-roads central/southern California and have done, since late 1981. A good friend in Santa Barbara is a multi-millionaire and as keen on cars and motorcycles as i am, so his huge spending power allows him to have a garage of cars 99.9% of us here can only dream about. (Current garage includes an 1,100 bhp bi-turbo 2009 8.4 litre Dodge/Chrysler Viper and a 2011 McLaren and a 300+ bhp motorcycle). The worst 'lag' i ever witnessed in a supercar was his vastly over-rated Ferrari F40, which he had for 2 years quite recently. It was actually the most over-rated car i have ever driven, in every way just about. When you first pulled away, you got the feeling that it might just be the perfect engine, then it went into a hole the size of the Grand Canyon until the turbos finally spooled up fully, whereby there was an almighty OMFG shove in the back and you needed to get the gearchanges just right, or the power fell away as if someone had cut the igniton completely. Horrendous engine for something which is supposed to be an all-time great. Something like the engine in his S65 AMG was just sooooo much better. Incidentally, the cabin was also appalling, the body panel fit was as if the thing had been knocked up in someone's double garage with a car kit which arrived by post and generally the engine and car felt like something would break at any moment. Now that DID have LAG!
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Beemer-5
6,324 posts
83 months
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s m said: Off-topic, that's an interesting selection of cars! There's a few there I'd like to try  Anyway, back to the arguing about power delivery .........  I was at least honest and included the Skodas and Trabants and Citroen 2cvs! :-)
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RobCrezz
7,554 posts
77 months
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Beemer-5 said: That makes the experts who decided the prize silly then? Sorry, but although the mpgs and power are very good, I find the evo engine more impressive that it can develop 400bhp from 2.0, pretty good for a mass production engine.
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Mr2Mike
9,480 posts
124 months
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RobCrezz said: Sorry, but although the mpgs and power are very good, I find the evo engine more impressive that it can develop 400bhp from 2.0, pretty good for a mass production engine. With a honking big turbo strapped onto the side of an engine it's not that much of a challenge. Far more impressive for the likes of Honda to get decent power out of normally aspirated engines that easily meet emissions requirements and drive like a bog standard engine at low RPM.
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RobCrezz
7,554 posts
77 months
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Mr2Mike said: With a honking big turbo strapped onto the side of an engine it's not that much of a challenge. Far more impressive for the likes of Honda to get decent power out of normally aspirated engines that easily meet emissions requirements and drive like a bog standard engine at low RPM. 1. The turbo isn't that big on the evo X 400 2. Although its not a massive challenge to get power through forced induction, I think it's a good effort for a full production engine. 3. Agree regarding Honda, was just replying to the comparison of the 123d engine to the evo engine.
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Mr2Mike
9,480 posts
124 months
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Making it reliable enough to offer a full warranty is certainly where the cleverness lies. People regularly extract way more power than that from smaller engines (e.g. 826 whp from a 1.6 Honda Civic engine!) but if they make it to the end of the dyno run they are often doing well 
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RobCrezz
7,554 posts
77 months
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Mr2Mike said: Making it reliable enough to offer a full warranty is certainly where the cleverness lies. People regularly extract way more power than that from smaller engines (e.g. 826 whp from a 1.6 Honda Civic engine!) but if they make it to the end of the dyno run they are often doing well  Yeah exactly, as you say much power can be extracted using turbos, but making it reliable with a warranty at that power is a pretty good effort. 
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Ecurie Ecosse
3,926 posts
87 months
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RobCrezz said: Yeah exactly, as you say much power can be extracted using turbos, but making it reliable with a warranty at that power is a pretty good effort.  Don't they need to be serviced every 3k miles, though?
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cmoose
18,628 posts
98 months
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I think we're probably going to struggle to agree.
For me a lot comes down to the sort of car you're driving. Recently I drove the new twin-turbo Audi V6 diesel in an A6. Wonderful engine, suited the car perfectly. Drove the 3.0 turbo petrol F10 5 Series on the same day and concluded that for that sort of car, the diesel probably edges it these days (that said, the Audi A6 with supercharged V6 is rather lovely).
On the other hand, in small sports coupe like a 123d I far prefer the zingy power delivery of a nice NA petrol lump, especially a straight six. I don't find the 23d remotely exciting or engaging. It's impressive, effective, and other words like that. But remotely soul stirring it ain't. And that's a complete deal breaker in a driver's car, for me.
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cheddar
1,971 posts
43 months
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cmoose said: I think we're probably going to struggle to agree.
For me a lot comes down to the sort of car you're driving. Recently I drove the new twin-turbo Audi V6 diesel in an A6. Wonderful engine, suited the car perfectly. Drove the 3.0 turbo petrol F10 5 Series on the same day and concluded that for that sort of car, the diesel probably edges it these days (that said, the Audi A6 with supercharged V6 is rather lovely).
On the other hand, in small sports coupe like a 123d I far prefer the zingy power delivery of a nice NA petrol lump, especially a straight six. I don't find the 23d remotely exciting or engaging. It's impressive, effective, and other words like that. But remotely soul stirring it ain't. And that's a complete deal breaker in a driver's car, for me. It's a grower. I never keep cars, I get bored quickly and turn them over every 3-6 months. I'm on month 8 with my 123D and it's just bloody brilliant. It's so much quicker than when new, I really like the manner in which the power is delivered and it still surprises me how effectively it'll pull off a multi-car overtake. Couple that with the quality (later model car with the much improved materials), economy, driving environment and perfect control weightings and it's a cohesive, compelling package. Awful audio though 
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DoubleSix
2,521 posts
45 months
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cmoose said: I don't find the 23d remotely exciting or engaging. It's impressive, effective, and other words like that. But remotely soul stirring it ain't. And that's a complete deal breaker in a driver's car, for me. In a nutshell.
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