RE: Porsche 911 GT2
Discussion
sparky 33 said:
kingb said:
its still just a 911
so for some it will the best thing ever
but for others (me) i just dont care because i wouldnt want one
wso for some it will the best thing ever
but for others (me) i just dont care because i wouldnt want one
rFrom your apparent grasp of our language I'm guessing quite some time.
flemke said:
RobM77 said:
flemke said:
A dog's breakfast of disparate tests, on vastly different tyres, in vastly different conditions.
I would never knock Ultima, who make a fine car, but their lateral g league table is meaningless.
Out of interest, you made the point earlier that 0-100mph is meaningless on its own. Could one not say though that if all of these stats are put together then a picture starts to emerge? As to what that picture is though, I would like to suppose that the Ultima would be the faster car around a race track such as Brands Hatch, but the 997 GT2 would be the faster, more capable car in more diverse situations (such as the Nurburgring or the B660 to Bedford). I'm sure even Ultima would admit that Porsche's expertise in developing the rounded talents of a road and track car is way ahead of most road car manufacturers, let alone a small company such as Ultima.I would never knock Ultima, who make a fine car, but their lateral g league table is meaningless.
Unless you are using the same tyres on all cars tested, the result is just meaningless. All these data - 0-whatever, whatever-0, lateral g - are as much dependent on grip as they are on weight, power, etc.
In addition to the tyre question, there is the question of the conditions. For lateral g, add some camber, go out on hot tarmac, get the tyres warm, etc. For acceleration, you'll want cool, dense air.
Maybe the Ultima is better by every one of these criteria than any other car listed. My point is that, without proper testing, we simply can't know that.
On the Ultima site that lists the car's records, I noticed this:
The Ultima GTR used for the successful record attempt was the factory’s standard production specification Ultima GTR640 demonstrator, which has recently been upgraded with a 720bhp Chevrolet V8 engine, and hence now known as the Ultima GTR720. The GTR720 was fully road legal, road tyred and equipped with a standard 5 speed G50 transmission and a standard production engine option from Ultima’s official OE engine suppliers American Speed.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Chevrolet offer any "standard" 720 bhp "option" in a road car, not by along chalk. That doesn't make the Ultima that was tested any worse (although it might raise a question about longevity), but it is no longer standard in the sense that is implied.
The head of BMW Motorsport Engine Development, Paul Rosche, asked Gordon Murray, "Would you like the F1 to have 1000 bhp? The engine will take it, no problem. We'll just add turbos."
If they had done that, the car's statistics would have been more impressive, at the same time that the car itself would have been spoiled.
The whole thing very quickly gets silly.
A chap who does a great deal of testing, in very quick cars, at Dunsfold recently spent a while putting the new GTR through its paces. His summary: "It's one of the two or three fastest things that I have ever driven here. In that way, it's amazing. Driving it, however, does nothing at all for me."
That brings us to the ultimate question: Which is more important, a car with huge performance potential that the driver will never, ever exploit, or a car with less huge potential but much greater actual driving rewards?
Opinions will differ, but I'd rather have something in the real world than have something in theory.
Cheers.
Look at the top gear lap board for example. When you start to get towards the pointy end of the field, you will know I'm sure, that to eek out a few tenths of a second, actually takes quite a bit of doing. The Ultima is some 5 seconds faster than the next road registered car around the Dunsfold circuit. There are plenty of YouTube videos around to show the lap, should you be so inclined.
When you also look at quarter mile times, the Ultima does 9.9 second quarter miles, and they have explicitly stated that this is on standard tyres, with no optimisation whatsoever. Drive to the track, do your 9.9, and drive home. Maybe buy some milk on the way. Simple as that.
I dont really see the logic in people saying a slower car is "better". Its a question of intended function. The Ultima is quite narrow in what it has chosen to pursue, and it does quite a good job of it. They dont pretend to be all round cars.
As I said, the stopwatch never lies.
big_rob_sydney said:
As I said, the stopwatch never lies.
I don't think anyone is arguing with that, however, the stopwatch alone doesn't give me enough information about a car. I care about more than absolute performance figures. Once you're down around 10s to 100mph it all gets a bit irrelevant IMO - by any measure any such car is FAST. For me, the feel you get when driving is important.In terms of top speed, my Caterham is slower than my Audi A3 but is a far more enjoyable car to drive. I'd say the Caterham is "better" than the Audi but that involves subjective measures too.
big_rob_sydney said:
flemke said:
RobM77 said:
flemke said:
A dog's breakfast of disparate tests, on vastly different tyres, in vastly different conditions.
I would never knock Ultima, who make a fine car, but their lateral g league table is meaningless.
Out of interest, you made the point earlier that 0-100mph is meaningless on its own. Could one not say though that if all of these stats are put together then a picture starts to emerge? As to what that picture is though, I would like to suppose that the Ultima would be the faster car around a race track such as Brands Hatch, but the 997 GT2 would be the faster, more capable car in more diverse situations (such as the Nurburgring or the B660 to Bedford). I'm sure even Ultima would admit that Porsche's expertise in developing the rounded talents of a road and track car is way ahead of most road car manufacturers, let alone a small company such as Ultima.I would never knock Ultima, who make a fine car, but their lateral g league table is meaningless.
Unless you are using the same tyres on all cars tested, the result is just meaningless. All these data - 0-whatever, whatever-0, lateral g - are as much dependent on grip as they are on weight, power, etc.
In addition to the tyre question, there is the question of the conditions. For lateral g, add some camber, go out on hot tarmac, get the tyres warm, etc. For acceleration, you'll want cool, dense air.
Maybe the Ultima is better by every one of these criteria than any other car listed. My point is that, without proper testing, we simply can't know that.
On the Ultima site that lists the car's records, I noticed this:
The Ultima GTR used for the successful record attempt was the factory’s standard production specification Ultima GTR640 demonstrator, which has recently been upgraded with a 720bhp Chevrolet V8 engine, and hence now known as the Ultima GTR720. The GTR720 was fully road legal, road tyred and equipped with a standard 5 speed G50 transmission and a standard production engine option from Ultima’s official OE engine suppliers American Speed.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe that Chevrolet offer any "standard" 720 bhp "option" in a road car, not by along chalk. That doesn't make the Ultima that was tested any worse (although it might raise a question about longevity), but it is no longer standard in the sense that is implied.
The head of BMW Motorsport Engine Development, Paul Rosche, asked Gordon Murray, "Would you like the F1 to have 1000 bhp? The engine will take it, no problem. We'll just add turbos."
If they had done that, the car's statistics would have been more impressive, at the same time that the car itself would have been spoiled.
The whole thing very quickly gets silly.
A chap who does a great deal of testing, in very quick cars, at Dunsfold recently spent a while putting the new GTR through its paces. His summary: "It's one of the two or three fastest things that I have ever driven here. In that way, it's amazing. Driving it, however, does nothing at all for me."
That brings us to the ultimate question: Which is more important, a car with huge performance potential that the driver will never, ever exploit, or a car with less huge potential but much greater actual driving rewards?
Opinions will differ, but I'd rather have something in the real world than have something in theory.
Cheers.
Look at the top gear lap board for example. When you start to get towards the pointy end of the field, you will know I'm sure, that to eek out a few tenths of a second, actually takes quite a bit of doing. The Ultima is some 5 seconds faster than the next road registered car around the Dunsfold circuit. There are plenty of YouTube videos around to show the lap, should you be so inclined.
When you also look at quarter mile times, the Ultima does 9.9 second quarter miles, and they have explicitly stated that this is on standard tyres, with no optimisation whatsoever. Drive to the track, do your 9.9, and drive home. Maybe buy some milk on the way. Simple as that.
I dont really see the logic in people saying a slower car is "better". Its a question of intended function. The Ultima is quite narrow in what it has chosen to pursue, and it does quite a good job of it. They dont pretend to be all round cars.
As I said, the stopwatch never lies.
RobM77 said:
"Better" depends what you're measuring though. I could retire to my shed for 6 months and build a slicks and wings single seater that would destroy an Ultima and a GT2 around a race track (even a little 1.6 Formula Ford probably would!). The achievement of the GT2, and to a far greater extent the Mclaren F1 and Porsche Carrera GT, is that they are road cars. Could I create a winning road and track car in my shed? Not a chance! It's far harder to create a car of rounded abilities and lognevity like Porsche do than it is to create a track specialist like Ultima do. I suppose it's like comparing James Bond with Carl Lewis. One can run bloody fast for a short period, but he certainly can't climb the Eiffel Tower, parachute off, have a gun fight and then slide half a Renault through the Paris streets
I agree there are fast cars with slicks and wings. But this isnt the point. The Ultima is a road registered car. And as such, I compare it with other road registered cars.Seriously, why would you even discuss a winged track car? Next you'll be trying to compare it to a top fuel dragster...
Insofar as being a fast roadcar, my point is that it destroys just about everything. I'd be happy to hear of another ROAD CAR car thats faster.
Yes, it wont carry 4 people, nor will it carry loads of luggage, nor does it use diesel. There are a whole bunch of things it doesnt do. But what it DOES do, it does very well.
I'm still curious to know what these other cars such as Porsche and Maclaren do better. I hear people talking about a number of things, however these things seem to me to be conveniently unable to be measured.
Call it the engineer in me wanting to be satisfied.
Not having driven either, the following is personal speculation. I suspect the Porsche will deliver 2 people to the other side of Europe in a more relaxed and comfortable state than the Ultima.
I'm sure the Ultima would be faster than the Porsche when both being driven at 10/10ths but how is it when being driven in traffic or at 5/10ths? Is it still a superior place to be when you're not using it's party piece? That's the sort of thing a stopwatch can't tell you, but forms the majority of a driving experience. After all, how often do you actually drive on the road at 10/10ths?
Ultima - a very fast car but a bit of a one trick pony.
Porsche - a not quite so fast car but more of an all-rounder.
IMO the two are aimed at different markets anyway. I doubt someone looking at a £130k Porsche will be thinking about an Ultima at all. Ferrari and Lambo yes, Ultima unlikely. You might think that they're being foolish; I can't imagine having enough disposable income to be able to afford to spend £30k on a car, nevermind £130k; however, there are people out there who will and it's their measures that matter, not mine or yours.
I'm sure the Ultima would be faster than the Porsche when both being driven at 10/10ths but how is it when being driven in traffic or at 5/10ths? Is it still a superior place to be when you're not using it's party piece? That's the sort of thing a stopwatch can't tell you, but forms the majority of a driving experience. After all, how often do you actually drive on the road at 10/10ths?
Ultima - a very fast car but a bit of a one trick pony.
Porsche - a not quite so fast car but more of an all-rounder.
IMO the two are aimed at different markets anyway. I doubt someone looking at a £130k Porsche will be thinking about an Ultima at all. Ferrari and Lambo yes, Ultima unlikely. You might think that they're being foolish; I can't imagine having enough disposable income to be able to afford to spend £30k on a car, nevermind £130k; however, there are people out there who will and it's their measures that matter, not mine or yours.
Edited by ewenm on Thursday 22 May 11:16
big_rob_sydney said:
RobM77 said:
"Better" depends what you're measuring though. I could retire to my shed for 6 months and build a slicks and wings single seater that would destroy an Ultima and a GT2 around a race track (even a little 1.6 Formula Ford probably would!). The achievement of the GT2, and to a far greater extent the Mclaren F1 and Porsche Carrera GT, is that they are road cars. Could I create a winning road and track car in my shed? Not a chance! It's far harder to create a car of rounded abilities and lognevity like Porsche do than it is to create a track specialist like Ultima do. I suppose it's like comparing James Bond with Carl Lewis. One can run bloody fast for a short period, but he certainly can't climb the Eiffel Tower, parachute off, have a gun fight and then slide half a Renault through the Paris streets
I agree there are fast cars with slicks and wings. But this isnt the point. The Ultima is a road registered car. And as such, I compare it with other road registered cars.Seriously, why would you even discuss a winged track car? Next you'll be trying to compare it to a top fuel dragster...
Insofar as being a fast roadcar, my point is that it destroys just about everything. I'd be happy to hear of another ROAD CAR car thats faster.
Yes, it wont carry 4 people, nor will it carry loads of luggage, nor does it use diesel. There are a whole bunch of things it doesnt do. But what it DOES do, it does very well.
I'm still curious to know what these other cars such as Porsche and Maclaren do better. I hear people talking about a number of things, however these things seem to me to be conveniently unable to be measured.
Call it the engineer in me wanting to be satisfied.
The wings are not important, and neither are the slick tyres; my point was that the Ultima is a road legal track car. Yes, it's a wonderful machine and is on my list of cars I'd like to own one day, but in essence comparing the Ultima to the GT2 is like comparing the Dauer 962 or Ferrari F40 (road legal track cars) with the Porsche 959 or the Ferrari Enzo (track ready road cars). I see your point, I do, but I'm not sure we can make a direct comparison here. If fast is your only criterion, the Ultima is head and shoulders above the GT2. The media may like to generate headlines purely regarding how fast a car is, but there are many other things on the priority list for a prospective performance car buyer. I suppose one could equally ask why Caterham outsell Ariel, Radical and Brooke put together, when Ariel, Radical and Brooke make faster cars (ok, this morning's EVO has proved me wrong, but you see my point!).RobM77 said:
Ok then, take the wings off The wings are not important, and neither are the slick tyres; my point was that the Ultima is a road legal track car. Yes, it's a wonderful machine and is on my list of cars I'd like to own one day, but in essence comparing the Ultima to the GT2 is like comparing the Dauer 962 or Ferrari F40 (road legal track cars) with the Porsche 959 or the Ferrari Enzo (track ready road cars). I see your point, I do, but I'm not sure we can make a direct comparison here. If fast is your only criterion, the Ultima is head and shoulders above the GT2. The media may like to generate headlines purely regarding how fast a car is, but there are many other things on the priority list for a prospective performance car buyer. I suppose one could equally ask why Caterham outsell Ariel, Radical and Brooke put together, when Ariel, Radical and Brooke make faster cars (ok, this morning's EVO has proved me wrong, but you see my point!).
I guess the thing that I'm most curious about isnt to do with the Ultima at all. I know what it is (and what it isnt). I'm most curious about how people read the headline figures about cars like this Porsche, and then fall all over themselves talking about how fast it is, when clearly, if fast is your thing, you'll get spanked. The wings are not important, and neither are the slick tyres; my point was that the Ultima is a road legal track car. Yes, it's a wonderful machine and is on my list of cars I'd like to own one day, but in essence comparing the Ultima to the GT2 is like comparing the Dauer 962 or Ferrari F40 (road legal track cars) with the Porsche 959 or the Ferrari Enzo (track ready road cars). I see your point, I do, but I'm not sure we can make a direct comparison here. If fast is your only criterion, the Ultima is head and shoulders above the GT2. The media may like to generate headlines purely regarding how fast a car is, but there are many other things on the priority list for a prospective performance car buyer. I suppose one could equally ask why Caterham outsell Ariel, Radical and Brooke put together, when Ariel, Radical and Brooke make faster cars (ok, this morning's EVO has proved me wrong, but you see my point!).I think theres another thread here somewhere about someone in an aero getting their arses kicked by a TVR.
The Porker is simply nowhere near fast enough to be sold on speed credentials. And thats the kicker. Its a quick car, that has some luggage carrying ability, questionable comfort, and some badge snob factor thrown in for good measure.
ewenm said:
Not having driven either, the following is personal speculation. I suspect the Porsche will deliver 2 people to the other side of Europe in a more relaxed and comfortable state than the Ultima.
I'm sure the Ultima would be faster than the Porsche when both being driven at 10/10ths but how is it when being driven in traffic or at 5/10ths? Is it still a superior place to be when you're not using it's party piece? That's the sort of thing a stopwatch can't tell you, but forms the majority of a driving experience. After all, how often do you actually drive on the road at 10/10ths?
Ultima - a very fast car but a bit of a one trick pony.
Porsche - a not quite so fast car but more of an all-rounder.
IMO the two are aimed at different markets anyway. I doubt someone looking at a £130k Porsche will be thinking about an Ultima at all. Ferrari and Lambo yes, Ultima unlikely. You might think that they're being foolish; I can't imagine having enough disposable income to be able to afford to spend £30k on a car, nevermind £130k; however, there are people out there who will and it's their measures that matter, not mine or yours.
Ewen, we've already established that speed isnt the Porsches party piece, as it gets its arse well and truely handed to it by the Ultima.I'm sure the Ultima would be faster than the Porsche when both being driven at 10/10ths but how is it when being driven in traffic or at 5/10ths? Is it still a superior place to be when you're not using it's party piece? That's the sort of thing a stopwatch can't tell you, but forms the majority of a driving experience. After all, how often do you actually drive on the road at 10/10ths?
Ultima - a very fast car but a bit of a one trick pony.
Porsche - a not quite so fast car but more of an all-rounder.
IMO the two are aimed at different markets anyway. I doubt someone looking at a £130k Porsche will be thinking about an Ultima at all. Ferrari and Lambo yes, Ultima unlikely. You might think that they're being foolish; I can't imagine having enough disposable income to be able to afford to spend £30k on a car, nevermind £130k; however, there are people out there who will and it's their measures that matter, not mine or yours.
What then, would the Porsches party piece be...?
ETA, I dont care about other peoples measures, as I dont fall into the sheeps game of following other peoples thinking. I'll happily take their opinions on board, but at the end of the day, my opinion is the only opinion that matters to me.
Edited by big_rob_sydney on Thursday 22 May 11:58
big_rob_sydney said:
RobM77 said:
Ok then, take the wings off The wings are not important, and neither are the slick tyres; my point was that the Ultima is a road legal track car. Yes, it's a wonderful machine and is on my list of cars I'd like to own one day, but in essence comparing the Ultima to the GT2 is like comparing the Dauer 962 or Ferrari F40 (road legal track cars) with the Porsche 959 or the Ferrari Enzo (track ready road cars). I see your point, I do, but I'm not sure we can make a direct comparison here. If fast is your only criterion, the Ultima is head and shoulders above the GT2. The media may like to generate headlines purely regarding how fast a car is, but there are many other things on the priority list for a prospective performance car buyer. I suppose one could equally ask why Caterham outsell Ariel, Radical and Brooke put together, when Ariel, Radical and Brooke make faster cars (ok, this morning's EVO has proved me wrong, but you see my point!).
I guess the thing that I'm most curious about isnt to do with the Ultima at all. I know what it is (and what it isnt). I'm most curious about how people read the headline figures about cars like this Porsche, and then fall all over themselves talking about how fast it is, when clearly, if fast is your thing, you'll get spanked. The wings are not important, and neither are the slick tyres; my point was that the Ultima is a road legal track car. Yes, it's a wonderful machine and is on my list of cars I'd like to own one day, but in essence comparing the Ultima to the GT2 is like comparing the Dauer 962 or Ferrari F40 (road legal track cars) with the Porsche 959 or the Ferrari Enzo (track ready road cars). I see your point, I do, but I'm not sure we can make a direct comparison here. If fast is your only criterion, the Ultima is head and shoulders above the GT2. The media may like to generate headlines purely regarding how fast a car is, but there are many other things on the priority list for a prospective performance car buyer. I suppose one could equally ask why Caterham outsell Ariel, Radical and Brooke put together, when Ariel, Radical and Brooke make faster cars (ok, this morning's EVO has proved me wrong, but you see my point!).I think theres another thread here somewhere about someone in an aero getting their arses kicked by a TVR.
The Porker is simply nowhere near fast enough to be sold on speed credentials. And thats the kicker. Its a quick car, that has some luggage carrying ability, questionable comfort, and some badge snob factor thrown in for good measure.
I agree completely. I suppose one has to read into those headlines and understand that it's fast for the type of car it is. Since I was born in 1977 supercars have progressed from doing 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds (1977 308GTB), to around 4 seconds (the modern equivalent, an F430). All the while an average club racer like a Sports 2000 or an old FF2000 has been able to do under 4 seconds with ease. However, every supercar that comes out is always hailed as fast. It's because it's relative. For instance, you and I both understand that the Mclaren F1 was marvellous because it went as quick as it did (0-100 in 6.2 wasn't it?!) but was also comfortable, seated three and had a CD player, well judged road damping etc etc. I suppose though, to the casual observer wandering into WHSmith and seeing the headlines back when the F1 was released, it was the fastest car ever! I remember trying to convince someone at work that a Caterham was faster accelerating than a 645i. I failed, so we went out in a 645i to prove the point. I thought it was a leviathon that I'd like for a pan european trip, but it left me totally cold from a performance perspective. This guy reacted as if we'd taken him up in a space shuttle 
Thing is, despite understanding that the new GT2 isn't faster than an Ultima, I still think it's a marvellous car. I'd rather have a GT3 though, which just goes to show that it isn't all about speed! RobM77 said:
I agree completely. I suppose one has to read into those headlines and understand that it's fast for the type of car it is. Since I was born in 1977 supercars have progressed from doing 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds (1977 308GTB), to around 4 seconds (the modern equivalent, an F430). All the while an average club racer like a Sports 2000 or an old FF2000 has been able to do under 4 seconds with ease. However, every supercar that comes out is always hailed as fast. It's because it's relative. For instance, you and I both understand that the Mclaren F1 was marvellous because it went as quick as it did (0-100 in 6.2 wasn't it?!) but was also comfortable, seated three and had a CD player, well judged road damping etc etc. I suppose though, to the casual observer wandering into WHSmith and seeing the headlines back when the F1 was released, it was the fastest car ever! I remember trying to convince someone at work that a Caterham was faster accelerating than a 645i. I failed, so we went out in a 645i to prove the point. I thought it was a leviathon that I'd like for a pan european trip, but it left me totally cold from a performance perspective. This guy reacted as if we'd taken him up in a space shuttle Thing is, despite understanding that the new GT2 isn't faster than an Ultima, I still think it's a marvellous car. I'd rather have a GT3 though, which just goes to show that it isn't all about speed! I can afford to have multiple cars, so I can afford to have cars that are more specialised in each discipline. There is less reason to compromise. When someone before asked how often do you drive at 10/10ths on the roads, then the question will automatically rule out all performance cars, and we therefore start driving whitegoods on wheels.
Having the performance available is more emotional. Like Clarkson said, we have watches that can withstand being 300 feet under water, we wear boots that could climb a lava flow, and why? Not because we intend on using it, but because it makes us feel good that we can, if we wanted to.
And this brings me back to the PURPOSE, or intended function, of these cars. If I was to spend 130k, I'd want it to make me feel like a BADASS, not like someone who has overpaid for a bit of luggage, a bit of questionable comfort, a badge, and the privilege of eating humble pie the first time a TVR, or Ultima comes along to blow my overpriced doors off.
It would FEEL, frankly, silly.
And if people would care to read that again, put yourself in this position; you've just shelled out a godforsaken amount of money, and have the privilege of having your arse handed to you. That sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach is the feeling of maybe how silly you just might have been, but cant really bring yourself to admit to anyone that knows you, lest you be somehow diminished in their eyes. Oh, the shame
big_rob_sydney said:
ewenm said:
Not having driven either, the following is personal speculation. I suspect the Porsche will deliver 2 people to the other side of Europe in a more relaxed and comfortable state than the Ultima.
I'm sure the Ultima would be faster than the Porsche when both being driven at 10/10ths but how is it when being driven in traffic or at 5/10ths? Is it still a superior place to be when you're not using it's party piece? That's the sort of thing a stopwatch can't tell you, but forms the majority of a driving experience. After all, how often do you actually drive on the road at 10/10ths?
Ultima - a very fast car but a bit of a one trick pony.
Porsche - a not quite so fast car but more of an all-rounder.
IMO the two are aimed at different markets anyway. I doubt someone looking at a £130k Porsche will be thinking about an Ultima at all. Ferrari and Lambo yes, Ultima unlikely. You might think that they're being foolish; I can't imagine having enough disposable income to be able to afford to spend £30k on a car, nevermind £130k; however, there are people out there who will and it's their measures that matter, not mine or yours.
Ewen, we've already established that speed isnt the Porsches party piece, as it gets its arse well and truely handed to it by the Ultima.I'm sure the Ultima would be faster than the Porsche when both being driven at 10/10ths but how is it when being driven in traffic or at 5/10ths? Is it still a superior place to be when you're not using it's party piece? That's the sort of thing a stopwatch can't tell you, but forms the majority of a driving experience. After all, how often do you actually drive on the road at 10/10ths?
Ultima - a very fast car but a bit of a one trick pony.
Porsche - a not quite so fast car but more of an all-rounder.
IMO the two are aimed at different markets anyway. I doubt someone looking at a £130k Porsche will be thinking about an Ultima at all. Ferrari and Lambo yes, Ultima unlikely. You might think that they're being foolish; I can't imagine having enough disposable income to be able to afford to spend £30k on a car, nevermind £130k; however, there are people out there who will and it's their measures that matter, not mine or yours.
What then, would the Porsches party piece be...?
ETA, I dont care about other peoples measures, as I dont fall into the sheeps game of following other peoples thinking. I'll happily take their opinions on board, but at the end of the day, my opinion is the only opinion that matters to me.
As for other people's measures...
big_rob_sydney said:
I'm still curious to know what these other cars such as Porsche and Maclaren do better. I hear people talking about a number of things, however these things seem to me to be conveniently unable to be measured.
You asked what makes them "better" - everyone's definition of "better" is different, yours is very objective and analytical it seems. I think my Caterham is "better" than just about anything else but many would disagree as they have different criteria for "better".I'm not disputing that the Ultima is a faster car than the Porsche when driving hard. I am disputing that that fact is of greatest relevance to most buyers. For example, a lot of it will be badge - I don't particularly like that but for many a Porsche badge is worth something that an Ultima badge isn't. Again, you might not agree with their judgement but then it's their money and their measures of value that will persuade them to part with that cash.
ewenm said:
How about refinement at speed? Would you want to spend a whole day in an Ultima making progress across Europe? I don't know for sure but I suspect that would be a bit of a trial.
As for other people's measures...
You asked what makes them "better" - everyone's definition of "better" is different, yours is very objective and analytical it seems. I think my Caterham is "better" than just about anything else but many would disagree as they have different criteria for "better".
I'm not disputing that the Ultima is a faster car than the Porsche when driving hard. I am disputing that that fact is of greatest relevance to most buyers. For example, a lot of it will be badge - I don't particularly like that but for many a Porsche badge is worth something that an Ultima badge isn't. Again, you might not agree with their judgement but then it's their money and their measures of value that will persuade them to part with that cash.
I, for one, would LOVE the chance to drive an Ultima across Europe. In particular, the Stelvio pass would be a dream come true.As for other people's measures...
You asked what makes them "better" - everyone's definition of "better" is different, yours is very objective and analytical it seems. I think my Caterham is "better" than just about anything else but many would disagree as they have different criteria for "better".
I'm not disputing that the Ultima is a faster car than the Porsche when driving hard. I am disputing that that fact is of greatest relevance to most buyers. For example, a lot of it will be badge - I don't particularly like that but for many a Porsche badge is worth something that an Ultima badge isn't. Again, you might not agree with their judgement but then it's their money and their measures of value that will persuade them to part with that cash.
In any case, I would tend to agree with you on many things. Particularly that badge is important for a lot of these buyers. This tells me a lot about them.
big_rob_sydney said:
RobM77 said:
I agree completely. I suppose one has to read into those headlines and understand that it's fast for the type of car it is. Since I was born in 1977 supercars have progressed from doing 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds (1977 308GTB), to around 4 seconds (the modern equivalent, an F430). All the while an average club racer like a Sports 2000 or an old FF2000 has been able to do under 4 seconds with ease. However, every supercar that comes out is always hailed as fast. It's because it's relative. For instance, you and I both understand that the Mclaren F1 was marvellous because it went as quick as it did (0-100 in 6.2 wasn't it?!) but was also comfortable, seated three and had a CD player, well judged road damping etc etc. I suppose though, to the casual observer wandering into WHSmith and seeing the headlines back when the F1 was released, it was the fastest car ever! I remember trying to convince someone at work that a Caterham was faster accelerating than a 645i. I failed, so we went out in a 645i to prove the point. I thought it was a leviathon that I'd like for a pan european trip, but it left me totally cold from a performance perspective. This guy reacted as if we'd taken him up in a space shuttle Thing is, despite understanding that the new GT2 isn't faster than an Ultima, I still think it's a marvellous car. I'd rather have a GT3 though, which just goes to show that it isn't all about speed! I can afford to have multiple cars, so I can afford to have cars that are more specialised in each discipline. There is less reason to compromise. When someone before asked how often do you drive at 10/10ths on the roads, then the question will automatically rule out all performance cars, and we therefore start driving whitegoods on wheels.
Having the performance available is more emotional. Like Clarkson said, we have watches that can withstand being 300 feet under water, we wear boots that could climb a lava flow, and why? Not because we intend on using it, but because it makes us feel good that we can, if we wanted to.
And this brings me back to the PURPOSE, or intended function, of these cars. If I was to spend 130k, I'd want it to make me feel like a BADASS, not like someone who has overpaid for a bit of luggage, a bit of questionable comfort, a badge, and the privilege of eating humble pie the first time a TVR, or Ultima comes along to blow my overpriced doors off.
It would FEEL, frankly, silly.
And if people would care to read that again, put yourself in this position; you've just shelled out a godforsaken amount of money, and have the privilege of having your arse handed to you. That sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach is the feeling of maybe how silly you just might have been, but cant really bring yourself to admit to anyone that knows you, lest you be somehow diminished in their eyes. Oh, the shame
Or maybe a 911 GT3 and an R500? Nevertheless, one can always make that argument. Some people love 911s so much that they want the ultimate 911, and that, at the moment, for many people, is the 9979 GT2 These sorts of cars aren't intended for people with £131k to burn, they're intended for people with many millions who don't even ask what the price tag is RobM77 said:
These sorts of cars aren't intended for people with £131k to burn, they're intended for people with many millions who don't even ask what the price tag is
Even better. I'll be shopping for an Ultima one day, and will happily cruise around looking for some millionaires, just so I can make them look silly.With any luck, they'll have an 18 year old bimbo in the passenger seat.
Might even offer her a ride when he catches up at the next lights.
big_rob_sydney said:
RobM77 said:
These sorts of cars aren't intended for people with £131k to burn, they're intended for people with many millions who don't even ask what the price tag is
Even better. I'll be shopping for an Ultima one day, and will happily cruise around looking for some millionaires, just so I can make them look silly.With any luck, they'll have an 18 year old bimbo in the passenger seat.
Might even offer her a ride when he catches up at the next lights.
The badge is not a big deal for me - I think if it was, the money would be going into a Lambo or Ferrari, 'cos lets face it Porsche's are not exactly a rare beast on our roads nowadays and to most people a 911 is a 911 - they have no idea that you are driving the ultimate 911.
I think your comment about making people look silly in their GT2 with your ultima on the road actually says alot more about your juvenile attitude than a porsche badge says about others. Would I worry about an Ultima leaving me at the lights in my GT2 - absolutely not, as my money is spent on something I could enjoy every day not just a couple of days a month while the rest of the time driving something much more average.
That is why 'I' think a GT2 is a better proposition.
I would happily take the 18 year old bimbo too though
jonlwright said:
big_rob_sydney said:
RobM77 said:
These sorts of cars aren't intended for people with £131k to burn, they're intended for people with many millions who don't even ask what the price tag is
Even better. I'll be shopping for an Ultima one day, and will happily cruise around looking for some millionaires, just so I can make them look silly.With any luck, they'll have an 18 year old bimbo in the passenger seat.
Might even offer her a ride when he catches up at the next lights.
The badge is not a big deal for me - I think if it was, the money would be going into a Lambo or Ferrari, 'cos lets face it Porsche's are not exactly a rare beast on our roads nowadays and to most people a 911 is a 911 - they have no idea that you are driving the ultimate 911.
I think your comment about making people look silly in their GT2 with your ultima on the road actually says alot more about your juvenile attitude than a porsche badge says about others. Would I worry about an Ultima leaving me at the lights in my GT2 - absolutely not, as my money is spent on something I could enjoy every day not just a couple of days a month while the rest of the time driving something much more average.
That is why 'I' think a GT2 is a better proposition.
I would happily take the 18 year old bimbo too though
big_rob_sydney said:
jonlwright said:
big_rob_sydney said:
RobM77 said:
These sorts of cars aren't intended for people with £131k to burn, they're intended for people with many millions who don't even ask what the price tag is
Even better. I'll be shopping for an Ultima one day, and will happily cruise around looking for some millionaires, just so I can make them look silly.With any luck, they'll have an 18 year old bimbo in the passenger seat.
Might even offer her a ride when he catches up at the next lights.
The badge is not a big deal for me - I think if it was, the money would be going into a Lambo or Ferrari, 'cos lets face it Porsche's are not exactly a rare beast on our roads nowadays and to most people a 911 is a 911 - they have no idea that you are driving the ultimate 911.
I think your comment about making people look silly in their GT2 with your ultima on the road actually says alot more about your juvenile attitude than a porsche badge says about others. Would I worry about an Ultima leaving me at the lights in my GT2 - absolutely not, as my money is spent on something I could enjoy every day not just a couple of days a month while the rest of the time driving something much more average.
That is why 'I' think a GT2 is a better proposition.
I would happily take the 18 year old bimbo too though
jonlwright said:
big_rob_sydney said:
jonlwright said:
big_rob_sydney said:
RobM77 said:
These sorts of cars aren't intended for people with £131k to burn, they're intended for people with many millions who don't even ask what the price tag is
Even better. I'll be shopping for an Ultima one day, and will happily cruise around looking for some millionaires, just so I can make them look silly.With any luck, they'll have an 18 year old bimbo in the passenger seat.
Might even offer her a ride when he catches up at the next lights.
The badge is not a big deal for me - I think if it was, the money would be going into a Lambo or Ferrari, 'cos lets face it Porsche's are not exactly a rare beast on our roads nowadays and to most people a 911 is a 911 - they have no idea that you are driving the ultimate 911.
I think your comment about making people look silly in their GT2 with your ultima on the road actually says alot more about your juvenile attitude than a porsche badge says about others. Would I worry about an Ultima leaving me at the lights in my GT2 - absolutely not, as my money is spent on something I could enjoy every day not just a couple of days a month while the rest of the time driving something much more average.
That is why 'I' think a GT2 is a better proposition.
I would happily take the 18 year old bimbo too though
jonlwright said:
big_rob_sydney said:
jonlwright said:
big_rob_sydney said:
RobM77 said:
These sorts of cars aren't intended for people with £131k to burn, they're intended for people with many millions who don't even ask what the price tag is
Even better. I'll be shopping for an Ultima one day, and will happily cruise around looking for some millionaires, just so I can make them look silly.With any luck, they'll have an 18 year old bimbo in the passenger seat.
Might even offer her a ride when he catches up at the next lights.
The badge is not a big deal for me - I think if it was, the money would be going into a Lambo or Ferrari, 'cos lets face it Porsche's are not exactly a rare beast on our roads nowadays and to most people a 911 is a 911 - they have no idea that you are driving the ultimate 911.
I think your comment about making people look silly in their GT2 with your ultima on the road actually says alot more about your juvenile attitude than a porsche badge says about others. Would I worry about an Ultima leaving me at the lights in my GT2 - absolutely not, as my money is spent on something I could enjoy every day not just a couple of days a month while the rest of the time driving something much more average.
That is why 'I' think a GT2 is a better proposition.
I would happily take the 18 year old bimbo too though
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