RE: MINI John Cooper Works
Discussion
urban_alchemist said:
Took delivery of ours in Monaco last week, and just got back from a ~2000km blast through Tuscany.
Thoughts?
It's pretty much a case of 'it was the best of times, it was the worst of times'. Darting through the twisties to the south of Siena, the car was simply sensational. There's no lag at all, and it punches in all gears with real gusto. The steering in these situations, though a bit lacking in feel is perfectly weighted, and the car is easy to thread on the narrow streets, and really darts down the road. Though the brakes weren't what you'd call progressive, having minimum stopping power at the top, and needing a pretty hefty shove to stop quickly, they get the job done; although they do suffer from the usual BMW trait of collapsing completely after a few large stops...
The problem comes as soon as you got on anything that looks like a motorway - especially the long sweepers that pass for them in Italy. Suddenly, the JCW falls to bits. The exhaust that sounded so great on the country lanes blares so loudly your head hurts, and that darty steering means that the car simply refuses to settle, darting around its line and neading constant minor adjustments to keep it heading in the right direction. Factor in quick sweepers, and the car's all over the shop - you have to battle it so as not to end up under an articulated lorry to your right, or a concrete island to your left.
I have to say I fell for the car. But would have preferred to be in almost anything else for that long, 6 hour long drive back from Siena to Monaco...
(Oh, and we were stupid enough to pay extra for the "Lounge seats" - hands down THE WORST seats in the world!)
The dartiness I can understand - flaming RFTs again but what was the actual problem with seats? Lacking support or just plain uncomfortable?Thoughts?
It's pretty much a case of 'it was the best of times, it was the worst of times'. Darting through the twisties to the south of Siena, the car was simply sensational. There's no lag at all, and it punches in all gears with real gusto. The steering in these situations, though a bit lacking in feel is perfectly weighted, and the car is easy to thread on the narrow streets, and really darts down the road. Though the brakes weren't what you'd call progressive, having minimum stopping power at the top, and needing a pretty hefty shove to stop quickly, they get the job done; although they do suffer from the usual BMW trait of collapsing completely after a few large stops...
The problem comes as soon as you got on anything that looks like a motorway - especially the long sweepers that pass for them in Italy. Suddenly, the JCW falls to bits. The exhaust that sounded so great on the country lanes blares so loudly your head hurts, and that darty steering means that the car simply refuses to settle, darting around its line and neading constant minor adjustments to keep it heading in the right direction. Factor in quick sweepers, and the car's all over the shop - you have to battle it so as not to end up under an articulated lorry to your right, or a concrete island to your left.
I have to say I fell for the car. But would have preferred to be in almost anything else for that long, 6 hour long drive back from Siena to Monaco...
(Oh, and we were stupid enough to pay extra for the "Lounge seats" - hands down THE WORST seats in the world!)
Edited by urban_alchemist on Tuesday 29th July 17:13
Jason_W said:
urban_alchemist said:
Took delivery of ours in Monaco last week, and just got back from a ~2000km blast through Tuscany.
Thoughts?
It's pretty much a case of 'it was the best of times, it was the worst of times'. Darting through the twisties to the south of Siena, the car was simply sensational. There's no lag at all, and it punches in all gears with real gusto. The steering in these situations, though a bit lacking in feel is perfectly weighted, and the car is easy to thread on the narrow streets, and really darts down the road. Though the brakes weren't what you'd call progressive, having minimum stopping power at the top, and needing a pretty hefty shove to stop quickly, they get the job done; although they do suffer from the usual BMW trait of collapsing completely after a few large stops...
The problem comes as soon as you got on anything that looks like a motorway - especially the long sweepers that pass for them in Italy. Suddenly, the JCW falls to bits. The exhaust that sounded so great on the country lanes blares so loudly your head hurts, and that darty steering means that the car simply refuses to settle, darting around its line and neading constant minor adjustments to keep it heading in the right direction. Factor in quick sweepers, and the car's all over the shop - you have to battle it so as not to end up under an articulated lorry to your right, or a concrete island to your left.
I have to say I fell for the car. But would have preferred to be in almost anything else for that long, 6 hour long drive back from Siena to Monaco...
(Oh, and we were stupid enough to pay extra for the "Lounge seats" - hands down THE WORST seats in the world!)
The dartiness I can understand - flaming RFTs again but what was the actual problem with seats? Lacking support or just plain uncomfortable?Thoughts?
It's pretty much a case of 'it was the best of times, it was the worst of times'. Darting through the twisties to the south of Siena, the car was simply sensational. There's no lag at all, and it punches in all gears with real gusto. The steering in these situations, though a bit lacking in feel is perfectly weighted, and the car is easy to thread on the narrow streets, and really darts down the road. Though the brakes weren't what you'd call progressive, having minimum stopping power at the top, and needing a pretty hefty shove to stop quickly, they get the job done; although they do suffer from the usual BMW trait of collapsing completely after a few large stops...
The problem comes as soon as you got on anything that looks like a motorway - especially the long sweepers that pass for them in Italy. Suddenly, the JCW falls to bits. The exhaust that sounded so great on the country lanes blares so loudly your head hurts, and that darty steering means that the car simply refuses to settle, darting around its line and neading constant minor adjustments to keep it heading in the right direction. Factor in quick sweepers, and the car's all over the shop - you have to battle it so as not to end up under an articulated lorry to your right, or a concrete island to your left.
I have to say I fell for the car. But would have preferred to be in almost anything else for that long, 6 hour long drive back from Siena to Monaco...
(Oh, and we were stupid enough to pay extra for the "Lounge seats" - hands down THE WORST seats in the world!)
Edited by urban_alchemist on Tuesday 29th July 17:13
I sat in a JCW at the Motorshow last night. I was, am, completely underwhelmed. Perhaps I'm a victim of the hype, but I was expecting something that would make my Clio 197 feel cheap and nasty inside. Perhaps I'm not a victim of hype, perhaps the TWENTY-ONE GRAND (caps; a bit of MINI marketing for you there) price tag led me up the garden path, but I digress.
As much as one can tell whilst stationary, the seats were crap; fine for posing but I got the impression they'd be wanting on a decent road or on a track. Also, and much has been made of this, but I need to reiterate: the speedometer was so comically large that the policeman's usual rhetorical question of "how fast was sir going?" would be redundant as he could tell you exactly how fast you were going according to your own speedo and how much fuel you've got left, all from the comfort of his Volvo, which was initially two cars behind. Additionally, the plastics around the heater controls were as nasty as those in the Clio and I've see more rear legroom in a kayak.
I know cars reputations aren't made or broken on the interior, but for me it's important, especially the seats and not feeling, and this is the only word I can cover the feeling I'd have if I owned one, embarrassed by the interior. Possibly I'm getting old, but I'd prefer a £21k hot hatch to feel special in a focused, wieldy sort of way. Not special in the cutesy, baby-talk kind of way. Sorry.
Finally a friendly middle-aged chap got in to the JCW and sat next to me. "I've got one of these; well, the Cooper S" he enthuses, before continuing immediately; "they're good cars you know. Fast. Handles brilliantly!". His first reaction was to be enthusiastic and then justify his enthusiasm. It's not just him, it's a reaction I've seen on here and elsewhere countless times with MINI owners. I know they're supposed to be good cars, but then it hit me why I've always been left cold by the MINI: I'd always be under pressure to justify buying one, not just to everyone else, but to myself too.
You might argue I have the same problem with the Clio. It's a girl's car. "Papa?" "Nicole!". It's a tarted-up shopping trolley. Clio? Every see you next Tuesday has got one. I've had them all but they don't bother me; it's an honest car and a good one at that.
Perhaps I need a test drive to open my eyes. How much better than a 197 is it, really? I suspect, however, that with the MINI, I'd feel fraudulent every time I turned the key.
As much as one can tell whilst stationary, the seats were crap; fine for posing but I got the impression they'd be wanting on a decent road or on a track. Also, and much has been made of this, but I need to reiterate: the speedometer was so comically large that the policeman's usual rhetorical question of "how fast was sir going?" would be redundant as he could tell you exactly how fast you were going according to your own speedo and how much fuel you've got left, all from the comfort of his Volvo, which was initially two cars behind. Additionally, the plastics around the heater controls were as nasty as those in the Clio and I've see more rear legroom in a kayak.
I know cars reputations aren't made or broken on the interior, but for me it's important, especially the seats and not feeling, and this is the only word I can cover the feeling I'd have if I owned one, embarrassed by the interior. Possibly I'm getting old, but I'd prefer a £21k hot hatch to feel special in a focused, wieldy sort of way. Not special in the cutesy, baby-talk kind of way. Sorry.
Finally a friendly middle-aged chap got in to the JCW and sat next to me. "I've got one of these; well, the Cooper S" he enthuses, before continuing immediately; "they're good cars you know. Fast. Handles brilliantly!". His first reaction was to be enthusiastic and then justify his enthusiasm. It's not just him, it's a reaction I've seen on here and elsewhere countless times with MINI owners. I know they're supposed to be good cars, but then it hit me why I've always been left cold by the MINI: I'd always be under pressure to justify buying one, not just to everyone else, but to myself too.
You might argue I have the same problem with the Clio. It's a girl's car. "Papa?" "Nicole!". It's a tarted-up shopping trolley. Clio? Every see you next Tuesday has got one. I've had them all but they don't bother me; it's an honest car and a good one at that.
Perhaps I need a test drive to open my eyes. How much better than a 197 is it, really? I suspect, however, that with the MINI, I'd feel fraudulent every time I turned the key.
Mutt, you've identified every major failing with the MINI and I'd agree with you. Its almost as if the bean counters got involved and felt the need to justify their existence by stamping their feet and insisting on finishing the car off with the bargain basement plastics surrounding the heater controls. Its not restricted to the MINI though, my Z4M has got some bits of plastic that look as if they've come off a Renault - hideous! Just kidding.
I'm not surprised you're underwhelmed by the JCW on the MINI stand as I understand its not even got the Chilli pack and has the bog standard seats so evidently the Marketing department went home early that day considering the exhibition vehicles should be fully loaded and I'd certainly put full leather, satnav etc on a car for public consumption.
However, and we could debate this for ages but I'd put money on the fit and finish seriously outlasting the Renault's interior and certainly without the squeaks and rattles. To compare it with your car is slightly unfair as the MCS is the closer competitor and its a hard decision to make between the two cars that do everything a hot hatch should do and they do it well. The Renault is a bloody good car but what swung it for me was the durability of the MINI plus the rock solid residuals which the Renault cannot compete with although if I had your car on my drive I wouldn't be disappointed.
Whether they're good enough reasons is open to debate but all I know is that after 18 months on a PCP deal, I can walk away tomorrow not owing a thing and there aren't that many cars out there with which you could say the same.
I'm not surprised you're underwhelmed by the JCW on the MINI stand as I understand its not even got the Chilli pack and has the bog standard seats so evidently the Marketing department went home early that day considering the exhibition vehicles should be fully loaded and I'd certainly put full leather, satnav etc on a car for public consumption.
However, and we could debate this for ages but I'd put money on the fit and finish seriously outlasting the Renault's interior and certainly without the squeaks and rattles. To compare it with your car is slightly unfair as the MCS is the closer competitor and its a hard decision to make between the two cars that do everything a hot hatch should do and they do it well. The Renault is a bloody good car but what swung it for me was the durability of the MINI plus the rock solid residuals which the Renault cannot compete with although if I had your car on my drive I wouldn't be disappointed.
Whether they're good enough reasons is open to debate but all I know is that after 18 months on a PCP deal, I can walk away tomorrow not owing a thing and there aren't that many cars out there with which you could say the same.
Jason_W said:
Mutt, you've identified every major failing with the MINI and I'd agree with you. Its almost as if the bean counters got involved and felt the need to justify their existence by stamping their feet and insisting on finishing the car off with the bargain basement plastics surrounding the heater controls. Its not restricted to the MINI though, my Z4M has got some bits of plastic that look as if they've come off a Renault - hideous! Just kidding.
I'm not surprised you're underwhelmed by the JCW on the MINI stand as I understand its not even got the Chilli pack and has the bog standard seats so evidently the Marketing department went home early that day considering the exhibition vehicles should be fully loaded and I'd certainly put full leather, satnav etc on a car for public consumption.
However, and we could debate this for ages but I'd put money on the fit and finish seriously outlasting the Renault's interior and certainly without the squeaks and rattles. To compare it with your car is slightly unfair as the MCS is the closer competitor and its a hard decision to make between the two cars that do everything a hot hatch should do and they do it well. The Renault is a bloody good car but what swung it for me was the durability of the MINI plus the rock solid residuals which the Renault cannot compete with although if I had your car on my drive I wouldn't be disappointed.
Whether they're good enough reasons is open to debate but all I know is that after 18 months on a PCP deal, I can walk away tomorrow not owing a thing and there aren't that many cars out there with which you could say the same.
Agree with that I'm not surprised you're underwhelmed by the JCW on the MINI stand as I understand its not even got the Chilli pack and has the bog standard seats so evidently the Marketing department went home early that day considering the exhibition vehicles should be fully loaded and I'd certainly put full leather, satnav etc on a car for public consumption.
However, and we could debate this for ages but I'd put money on the fit and finish seriously outlasting the Renault's interior and certainly without the squeaks and rattles. To compare it with your car is slightly unfair as the MCS is the closer competitor and its a hard decision to make between the two cars that do everything a hot hatch should do and they do it well. The Renault is a bloody good car but what swung it for me was the durability of the MINI plus the rock solid residuals which the Renault cannot compete with although if I had your car on my drive I wouldn't be disappointed.
Whether they're good enough reasons is open to debate but all I know is that after 18 months on a PCP deal, I can walk away tomorrow not owing a thing and there aren't that many cars out there with which you could say the same.
I thought I'd post a response to this article as it was one that I read a while back when researching for my new company car.
I was looking to get something quick and fun in the Golf - Jetta size range. I went through the whole list (all 2000 odd lines...) and made myself a shortlist to test drive at some point. The list basically came down to:
Golf GTI
JCW
Leon Cupra (K1 version, also tested the Golf GTI engined FR)
S40 T5
Mazda 3 MPS Aero
Focus ST-2
Tested the Golf first, so that was like my benchmark for the rest. Enjoyed it, but didn't really find it especially exciting.
The Leons were next, and they just demonstrated that the Golf was nothing special. The FR was very similar overall, but it handled better, and the Cupra was just an absolute hoot! Much faster, much better handling and better specced than the Golf I would have been able to get.
The JCW was next, and to be honest I was really excited about getting it. They dropped it off at work on the Friday night and picked it up again on the Monday. We were popping down to see the girlfriend's parents that weekend, which meant nice sections of open dual-lane A roads, a bit of motorway and then 20 odd miles of Buckinghamshire country lanes.
I was actually really disappointed at the end of it, as I think I'd hyped it up so much (I thought it was going to be a forgone conclusion). Like previous posters mentioned, the noise while cruising along was just frustrating. The performance and handling was just not what I had expected. After the Leon which I'd had earlier in the week, it actually felt quite sluggish, especially when pulling in 3rd and 4th. There was just nothing about the car that felt special when I was inside it. I still love the looks, but I just feel that the driving experience doesn't match up.
To finish off the story, the S40 was a really nice car to be in and extremely rapid, but I still have issues with driving a Volvo, and the body roll was quite noticable.
The Focus felt quite heavy when cornering, and I just found the new shape made me want to yawn.
The MPS was just completely bonkers. The 256bhp figure quoted is apparently the typical Japanese trick of knocking 20-30bhp off when quoting figures to make it sound 'safer'... Ultimately there were two things that led to me ultimately crossing the MPS off the list. Firstly, petrol consumption. 29.1mpg was the quoted figure, and from what I've been told, you'll be lucky to see 25 in reality. Secondly, my gran could have done a better job on the interior.
The other factor I was considering with all of the cars was whether I could get a Bluefin for them (because I need to be able to change it back to default), and the performance increase it would give.
So, I have ended up ordering a Cupra K1. It wasn't the fastest, but it can Bluefinned to 290bhp, probably a bit more with a decent induction kit. I really like the looks, it handles well and is great fun to drive, and 34mpg is only bettered by the Golf and JCW, both of which I knew I didn't want.
I think in all honesty, if this had been a private purchase, I still would have gone with the Leon, although I probably would have looked a bit harder at the more extreme JCW options and tuning.
I was looking to get something quick and fun in the Golf - Jetta size range. I went through the whole list (all 2000 odd lines...) and made myself a shortlist to test drive at some point. The list basically came down to:
Golf GTI
JCW
Leon Cupra (K1 version, also tested the Golf GTI engined FR)
S40 T5
Mazda 3 MPS Aero
Focus ST-2
Tested the Golf first, so that was like my benchmark for the rest. Enjoyed it, but didn't really find it especially exciting.
The Leons were next, and they just demonstrated that the Golf was nothing special. The FR was very similar overall, but it handled better, and the Cupra was just an absolute hoot! Much faster, much better handling and better specced than the Golf I would have been able to get.
The JCW was next, and to be honest I was really excited about getting it. They dropped it off at work on the Friday night and picked it up again on the Monday. We were popping down to see the girlfriend's parents that weekend, which meant nice sections of open dual-lane A roads, a bit of motorway and then 20 odd miles of Buckinghamshire country lanes.
I was actually really disappointed at the end of it, as I think I'd hyped it up so much (I thought it was going to be a forgone conclusion). Like previous posters mentioned, the noise while cruising along was just frustrating. The performance and handling was just not what I had expected. After the Leon which I'd had earlier in the week, it actually felt quite sluggish, especially when pulling in 3rd and 4th. There was just nothing about the car that felt special when I was inside it. I still love the looks, but I just feel that the driving experience doesn't match up.
To finish off the story, the S40 was a really nice car to be in and extremely rapid, but I still have issues with driving a Volvo, and the body roll was quite noticable.
The Focus felt quite heavy when cornering, and I just found the new shape made me want to yawn.
The MPS was just completely bonkers. The 256bhp figure quoted is apparently the typical Japanese trick of knocking 20-30bhp off when quoting figures to make it sound 'safer'... Ultimately there were two things that led to me ultimately crossing the MPS off the list. Firstly, petrol consumption. 29.1mpg was the quoted figure, and from what I've been told, you'll be lucky to see 25 in reality. Secondly, my gran could have done a better job on the interior.
The other factor I was considering with all of the cars was whether I could get a Bluefin for them (because I need to be able to change it back to default
), and the performance increase it would give.So, I have ended up ordering a Cupra K1. It wasn't the fastest, but it can Bluefinned to 290bhp, probably a bit more with a decent induction kit. I really like the looks, it handles well and is great fun to drive, and 34mpg is only bettered by the Golf and JCW, both of which I knew I didn't want.
I think in all honesty, if this had been a private purchase, I still would have gone with the Leon, although I probably would have looked a bit harder at the more extreme JCW options and tuning.
The biggest downer of the MINI for me is the Fisher-Price interior. I couldn't live with it. A mate has just chopped in a One for a new Clubman. Got a really good trade-in but £17k for the Clubman is an awful lot of money. BMW have done a brilliant job on the marketing for these cars. But I just don't 'get' them. Not for me but good luck to those who like them.
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