RE: New '914' Mooted In VW-Porsche Plans

[kambites]

True. The MX5 is slower than the Golf GTi but I know which I'd rather be driving.

[Li Moo Bai]

Golf and Boxster not really comparable as said above, and I'm fairly sure that the Golf would struggle to keep up with the Boxster in the twisties anyhow.

[HundredthIdiot]

Yes, yes. Obviously Golf and Boxster are different cars. But from a marketing perspective, performance is performance - look at the ring times for the R26R - they are well into Porsche territory.

Porsche don't make a hatchback. VW do. When considering a "VW Porsche", people will look to other VW products for comparison.

IMO a Boxster is about as slow as it can be without entering MX5 territory.

So I think positioning will be tricky.

But Porsche are the masters of this, so who knows.

[kambites]

Less powerful doesn't mean slower if they can keep the weight down by removing luxuries. I think they will have to make a decision to compete in the same market as either the MX5 or the Elise. I would argue that the Elise is a better bet because there's less competition and less danger of traditionalists viewing it as "diluting the brand".

ETA: I suppose it depends on the branding actually. If they market it as a VW, aiming at the MX5 probably makes sense. If they market it as a Porsche, I think the Elise would be a better target.

Edited by kambites on Friday 12th September 10:05

[Strawman]

kambites said:

If they market it as a Porsche, I think the Elise would be a better target.

Is it possible to out Elise an Elise though? I haven't driven one, but from all the reviews it seems to be one of the best cars ever, I know details could be changed to improve it (like the roof, or it could be a bit bigger) but fundamentally it is a very good design, and used high tech (at the time) materials to achieve it's light weight and hence performance, the k series is also a light weight engine.

[kambites]

The Elise is a very good car but the development budget was tiny when compared to what WAG could muster so it's hard to believe that it couldn't be significantly improved upon. The fact that you can substantially improve the way an Elise drives by using aftermarket parts sort of implies the same thing.

The Elise may well be the best mass produced drivers' car ever, it's certainly the best that I've driven, but it's certainly far from perfect.

I'm sure Porsche have plenty of top quality chassis engineers who would love to have a go at producing a proper drivers' car without being hindered by the touring capabilities that the Boxster and 911 have.

Edited by kambites on Friday 12th September 10:36

[Fittster]

turboman808 said:

Fittster said:

turboman808 said:

Well I for one hope they make it and keep some original styling cues. 2000 lbs 300 hp and I will lay down the cash right now.

And you'd like it to be safe and meet current emissions targets?

Safer then a roll cage 5 point harness and fire suppression system?

I could care less about emissions.

So that fact it won't be road legal is of no concern?

Face it, no mainstream firm are going to build the car you are hoping for.

[kambites]

Fittster said:

Face it, no mainstream firm are going to build the car you are hoping for.

There are plenty of small volume manufacturers who do though. An Elise can easily be made to hit those requirements too with a supercharged K20 engine in it.

If I was aiming for a car like that, an AMS Murtaya would be top of my list to drive.

[dcb]

kambites said:

I'm sure Porsche have plenty of top quality chassis engineers who would love to have a go at producing a proper drivers' car without being hindered by the touring capabilities that the Boxster and 911 have.

Or, saying the same thing in a different way

Why appeal to a narrow section of the population who
are only interested in track day performance, when
you can add a practical boot, sensibly sized fuel
tank, tweek the suspension so that most people can cope,
to make the car more practical, and then appeal
to a far larger section of the marketplace ?

One things for sure: Porsche don't do what they do
to keep their staff happy: they have shareholders to
keep happy.

[kambites]

But they already have the Boxster and 911 to do the sportscar/GT hybrid thing. If they are going to produce a model to sit under (in price terms) the Boxster/Cayman, I think a lightweight Elise competitor is a better bet than an MX5/MR2 type car.

I think an MX5 rival would be better badged as a VW.

Edited by kambites on Friday 12th September 10:49

[Fittster]

kambites said:

Fittster said:

Face it, no mainstream firm are going to build the car you are hoping for.

There are plenty of small volume manufacturers who do though. An Elise can easily be made to hit those requirements too with a supercharged K20 engine in it.

If I was aiming for a car like that, an AMS Murtaya would be top of my list to drive.

The Elise has got heavier, with more comfort and safety over time. I don't see any evidence that there is enough demand for a light weight volume model.

[kambites]

Fittster said:

kambites said:

Fittster said:

Face it, no mainstream firm are going to build the car you are hoping for.

There are plenty of small volume manufacturers who do though. An Elise can easily be made to hit those requirements too with a supercharged K20 engine in it.

If I was aiming for a car like that, an AMS Murtaya would be top of my list to drive.

The Elise has got heavier, with more comfort and safety over time. I don't see any evidence that there is enough demand for a light weight volume model.

If there's one think Porsche is good at, it's persuading people that they want things that they didn't know they wanted.

You're probably right, there probably isn't a big enough market to make it worthwhile. However, if that's the case, I don't think Porsche should be producing a car below the Boxster at all.

[300bhp/ton]

kambites said:

The Elise has got heavier, with more comfort and safety over time. I don't see any evidence that there is enough demand for a light weight volume model.

If there's one think Porsche is good at, it's persuading people that they want things that they didn't know they wanted.

You're probably right, there probably isn't a big enough market to make it worthwhile. However, if that's the case, I don't think Porsche should be producing a car below the Boxster at all.

I think there is a market - BUT it has to priced right.

People who want stripped out lightweight cars want them for two reasons:

-either purist in terms of driving experience/track days. But this places such a car against kit cars, Caterham's and Ariel's.

-because people can't afford a better specced car and will accept the compromise for performance


So to that affect if Porsche where to develop an Elise style vehicle, maybe with a 2.0 litre turbo 4 or 6 with 200bhp in a car weighing around 800-900kg and price it at £18k they would have a winner.

No frills, but plenty of thrills

[kambites]

I don't think it's possible for 18k. I think they'd struggle to get a car with those specs much under 25-30k to be honest without seriously compromising build quality. You need to use pretty expensive materials to get a car of that weight up to acceptable modern safety standards.

If Porsche try and go up against Caterham, I suspect they will lose; at least in this country.

Edited by kambites on Friday 12th September 11:11

[300bhp/ton]

kambites said:

I don't think it's possible for 18k. I think they'd struggle to get a car with those specs much under 25-30k to be honest without seriously compromising build quality. You need to use pretty expensive materials to get a car of that weight up to acceptable modern safety standards.

Edited by kambites on Friday 12th September 11:10

I'm not so sure, other car makers manage it and cars are way over priced anyhow.

Remember if this is a basic car with little options and creature comforts, there won't be much on it to cost lots.

If it ain't cheap - then I say there is no market for such a mass produced car.

Take a look at the MK1 Elise. If it had cost £50k it would have sold only to dedicated petrol heads who wanted it for track use.

It sold well, mainly because it was priced right at the time.

TVR fell foul of this too. Back in the days of the Griff and Chim they where priced realistically.

Move the game onto the likes of the Tuscan 2 and the Sagaris and you're looking at upto 3 times more RRP.

They priced the car out of the market.

I admit Porsche have a very successful high end business.

But to make a small lightweight stripped out car, it's got to appeal to the right people, and those people will be on a much smaller budget.

I guess the thing to do, to give Porsche the performance difference across the range, is make this new entry level car more revvy and only quick to 100mph. Maybe cap it's top speed (gearing, power & electronically) to 120mph.

sub 6 sec 0-60mph
0-100mph in 14 sec
top speed 120mph

[kambites]

Inflationally adjusted, the Mk1 Elise cost somewhere around 30-35k in today's money.

Edited by kambites on Friday 12th September 11:24

[HundredthIdiot]

For Porsche to compete against Lotus, Ariel and Caterham they need better perceived quality and finish. This is difficult, without adding weight and expense.

If they do a really good job, they could end up with something like a KTM X-Bow, but that's £50k+. And if I wanted an X-Bow, I'd buy one regardless of the badge.

Ultimately, Porsche don't need a car that embarrasses a GT3RS on track, particularly when the financial upside is so small.

[kambites]

They certainly don't need the car from a direct financial point of view. It's harder to judge the effect that an affordable (yet still acceptable to the traditionalists) entry-point into the brand would have in the long run.

Personally I think a Porsche engineered, VW badged, MX5 competitor could be very good for them in direct financial terms.

Edited by kambites on Friday 12th September 11:29

[300bhp/ton]

kambites said:

Inflationally adjusted, the Mk1 Elise cost somewhere around 30-35k in today's money.

Edited by kambites on Friday 12th September 11:24

Really?

I'm surprised it's such a margin. BTW - what was the RRP no the Elise at launch?

I still think it's possible for Porsche though. The MX5/MGF are not that pricey. If Porsche sold a car of similar ilk but more akin to the Elise in ethos.

i.e. a simple interior, using aluminium sections. Keep the luxury and the electronic gubbins to a minimal.

[mulletmark]

kambites said:

I think it was a joke. Porsche have already made tractors:



ETA: Damn, beaten to it.

Edited by kambites on Friday 12th September 08:56

They still do.