RE: Porsche 911 Turbo

[DJC]

So the "No" brigade are using the angle of lacking soul, character, personality and boring.

There has only ever been one true test of Supercarness...the Athena poster.

Which makes the 911t and the Countach the undisputed kings.


Or rather it would if Porsche had stuck to that design language. Instead they *have* moved away to more anodine corporate image. The 911 has been toned down to look less lairy and more "accessable" and sensible. Even the TT is fairly discreet about being seriously fast and the GT2 is completely restrained compared to the extreme examples in the 911 anthology.

I wonder how many of the nay-sayers would suddenly change their minds if Porsche started putting whale tails on again?

[marlinmunro]

[Asterix]

vinnie83 said:

911teo said:

I think most here would not consider a Mercedes SL 63/65 AMG a supercar, but it does everything the 997 TT does with maybe more style

The porsche goes around bends

I was going to say that - The Merc would be left for dead on a track.

[kambites]

Asterix said:

vinnie83 said:

911teo said:

I think most here would not consider a Mercedes SL 63/65 AMG a supercar, but it does everything the 997 TT does with maybe more style

The porsche goes around bends

I was going to say that - The Merc would be left for dead on a track.

Probably true, but there have been plenty of Supercars that don't like corners much.

[forza whites]

IMI A said:

cvegas said:

Custard yellow not the best choice of colour!

any better?

Good man!

[peteO]

the new vette is faster than them all! is that a supercar?

[urban_alchemist]

DJC said:

I wonder how many of the nay-sayers would suddenly change their minds if Porsche started putting whale tails on again?

The Whale-tails were there out of necessity; not design. There's bugger-all space in that engine bay for one turbo, let-alone two - that's the reason all air-cooled turbos have a huge tea-tray out back. Newer watercooled cars don't have the tails as they don't need them to house the turbos.

That said, I absolutely love the tail of my 993T

[Andeh]

peteO said:

the new vette is faster than them all! is that a supercar?

Yes.

[daninsidious]

Well it's quite simple isn't it?

911 = Sportscar,
911 Turbo = Supercar,
Carrera GT = Hypercar.

Cars like the Zonda, Veyron etc have now introduced the Hypercar level which others were Supercars of 10-20 years ago (F40s, 959s etc).

[Pete Eroleum]

urban_alchemist said:

There's bugger-all space in that engine bay for one turbo, let-alone two - that's the reason all air-cooled turbos have a huge tea-tray out back. Newer watercooled cars don't have the tails as they don't need them to house the turbos.

Um, the turbos aren't in the whale-tail, the intercooler is. Also the first Porsche turbos to have whale-tails
only have a single turbo.

[urban_alchemist]

Pete Eroleum said:

urban_alchemist said:

There's bugger-all space in that engine bay for one turbo, let-alone two - that's the reason all air-cooled turbos have a huge tea-tray out back. Newer watercooled cars don't have the tails as they don't need them to house the turbos.

Um, the turbos aren't in the whale-tail, the intercooler is. Also the first Porsche turbos to have whale-tails
only have a single turbo.

I meant intercoolers... tsk.

[gary11]

[AJ] said:

BEN66 said:

markmullen said:

BEN66 said:

markmullen said:

BEN66 said:

It aint supercar, it's just a goodcar.

I would disagree, performance figures like that put it squarely in supercar territory.

Are the new Audi estates destined to be supercars? No. The Porsche is just a top of the range car.
It just doesn't look like a super car, more like any other 911, which aren't exactly rare any more, it's not exotic, nor interesting enough. Excellent it may be, super? No.

Take a drive of one and tell me they're similar to an Audi estate.

Give Audi a few years....

Go to a supercar meet, there will be a 911 Turbo there. Read a supercar book, it will have a 911 Turbo in it. Watch a supercar DVD, it will feature a 911 Turbo. Although we are all entitled to our own opinion, the general consensus is that the 911 Turbo is in fact, a supercar.

+1 Fantastic car fast reliable,Ive a 993 TT back in 96 was THE fastest production car and also fastest 60-00 made at the time cant imagine new one isnt much faster,nothing special about a 911 turbo? maybe if you dont like them anyway!

[JayKaybi]

daninsidious said:

Well it's quite simple isn't it?

911 = Sportscar,
911 Turbo = Supercar,
Carrera GT = Hypercar.

Cars like the Zonda, Veyron etc have now introduced the Hypercar level which others were Supercars of 10-20 years ago (F40s, 959s etc).

Nope.

Historically speaking, the 911T wasn't even a supercar when the likes of McLaren F1, Jag XJ220, Bugatti EB110, Ferrari F40, Lamborghini Countach were around.

Supercars, as a good friend of mine regularly points out, need to have an element of 'outrage' about them. Which is why I don't even class the polite, quiet, refined, beautifully engineered and comfortable Veyron as a supercar (it's in a completely different category). A supercar should have the personality and impact of Guns N Roses circa 1987.

The 911T, while no doubt a popular record seller, conducts itself in a much more James Blunty fashion.

[evil_dr_fish]

For me personally, german cars leave me cold. Bored rigid and utterly uninspired (certainly insufficiently inspired to part with my ££ for one!). There isn't a single German car which I would choose over anything else.

[X-Post....]

From what I can tell there are about 5 significant schools of car making.

Some people can only ever relate to just one of them - many can get on with a couple but few find they can genuinely float between them all....

• German - Graph papered, Mathematically precise engineerung. (sic)

• British - Intrepid, polar cap exploring lunacy and an ability to produce greatness out of string vests and stained tea cups.

• Italian - Be still my beating heart. Cars made with passion and flair, with naked, heavy breasted ladies in mind (usually more than one - at the same time) and are made and bought by the emotions, not the head.

• Japanese / Far east (sorry to lump you all together!) - Microchipped ingenuity, 'computing' the car onto the road.

• American - More is more. You want to argue? We'll drop an 15 Litre engine on your head and see who's in front then?!

Out of those 5, the most unlikely and incompatible bedfellows imo are the German and Italian schools.

They will never truly 'understand' each other. It's like taking a stiff-upper lipped, old school, Englishman and getting him to date a Brazilian girl - It's just NEVER going to work! X-D

They are diametric opposites:

Sterile, surgical precision vs Dirty, hot sweaty sex!



I know which I would rather have EVERY time!

[evil_dr_fish]

Afterthought on that theme:

Its an argument which will go on for ever and there will be no winner...

...basically it is -

Are you missionary position with the lights off or cowgirl style with another chick sitting on your face!

Edited by evil_dr_fish on Thursday 27th November 12:35

[BlueEyedBoy]

Is a GT2 considered to be a super car then? Not so many produced, or is it still considered to be just a tuned version of the turbo?

[evil_dr_fish]

Surely that all depends upon which side of the debate you are on?

If you're a Porsche lover then surely it would be?

If you're indifferent to Porsches then it's just yet another porker!

[DJC]

urban_alchemist said:

DJC said:

I wonder how many of the nay-sayers would suddenly change their minds if Porsche started putting whale tails on again?

The Whale-tails were there out of necessity; not design. There's bugger-all space in that engine bay for one turbo, let-alone two - that's the reason all air-cooled turbos have a huge tea-tray out back. Newer watercooled cars don't have the tails as they don't need them to house the turbos.

That said, I absolutely love the tail of my 993T

I know (well you mean the intercooler, but we both know what you meant ).

The entire point was about the aesthetics of the car and their impact on making the image of the 911T in the first place. That very image has now been toned down because of the engineering evolution Porsche has used. The abilities of the car have increased dramatically but at the expense of the "Supercar" image.

Edited by DJC on Thursday 27th November 15:46

[gary11]

JayKaybi said:

daninsidious said:

Well it's quite simple isn't it?

911 = Sportscar,
911 Turbo = Supercar,
Carrera GT = Hypercar.

Cars like the Zonda, Veyron etc have now introduced the Hypercar level which others were Supercars of 10-20 years ago (F40s, 959s etc).

Nope.

Historically speaking, the 911T wasn't even a supercar when the likes of McLaren F1, Jag XJ220, Bugatti EB110, Ferrari F40, Lamborghini Countach were around.

Supercars, as a good friend of mine regularly points out, need to have an element of 'outrage' about them. Which is why I don't even class the polite, quiet, refined, beautifully engineered and comfortable Veyron as a supercar (it's in a completely different category). A supercar should have the personality and impact of Guns N Roses circa 1987.

The 911T, while no doubt a popular record seller, conducts itself in a much more James Blunty fashion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion,however a porsche 911 twin turbo is most DEFINATELY in every guise a true benchmark of a supercar and the car everyone wants to beat! accept it or not its true, possibly agree with you against a std 911 but a 911 turbo is crushingly good whilst obviously not a bugatti or mclaren ect.

[JayKaybi]

gary11 said:

JayKaybi said:

Supercars, as a good friend of mine regularly points out, need to have an element of 'outrage' about them. Which is why I don't even class the polite, quiet, refined, beautifully engineered and comfortable Veyron as a supercar (it's in a completely different category). A supercar should have the personality and impact of Guns N Roses circa 1987.

The 911T, while no doubt a popular record seller, conducts itself in a much more James Blunty fashion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion,however a porsche 911 twin turbo is most DEFINATELY in every guise a true benchmark of a supercar and the car everyone wants to beat! accept it or not its true, possibly agree with you against a std 911 but a 911 turbo is crushingly good whilst obviously not a bugatti or mclaren ect.

Crushingly good, yes. So's the Nissan GTR. And the Ariel Atom. And the BMW M5. And the new S-Class. So what?

The Lamborghini Countach, by comparison with the Porsche 911T, is hopeless.

Park them next to each other and ask people to point at the supercar.

And before you suggest the Lambo is 'more of a supercar,' there is no sliding scale. The Lambo Countach is as much a supercar as the Zonda F Roadster you saw flying around the TG track on Sunday night, despite being massively inferior in technical terms, in the same way that an S65AMG is as much a 4 door saloon as a Ford Mondeo.

Edited by JayKaybi on Thursday 27th November 16:05