RE: Lotus Evora
Discussion
dandarez said:
dom180 said:
dandarez said:
A balanced judgement of the Evora?
Autocar? Well, that might just as well be titled 'Lotus Weekly' so no good reading their write up - the usual 'praising and selling' bias in between the negatives (never many of them).
To be fair, Autocar trashed the launch version of the Europa. Autocar? Well, that might just as well be titled 'Lotus Weekly' so no good reading their write up - the usual 'praising and selling' bias in between the negatives (never many of them).
Edited by dandarez on Wednesday 13th May 12:29
BUT the Autocar Europa test was done by Chris Harris (he's no longer with Autocar...)
How many Europas have been sold? They still sell on here regularly - some look like good buys.
How can you have a dig at Autocar for praising Lotus' offerings (Europa excepted) when they've all been brilliant to drive - seems Autocar offer a pretty accurate evaluation in my view.
Edited by dom180 on Thursday 14th May 18:57
Fetchez la vache said:
If the 911 is the aimed competator for this, then how much room is there in the back of a 911? I've only ever been in the front 
Sounds like the rear is for small kids only - is that realistically what the rear seats of a 911 is?
Saw an Evora at the Lotus show in Donington, looked cramped and dark in the back, but am sure kids could cope due to the benefits of being driven in the back of a comfortable Lotus spaceship, and dropped off at school in one!Sounds like the rear is for small kids only - is that realistically what the rear seats of a 911 is?
I love it. As a current Elise owner, I think I'd miss the morning door-left leg-sill-slide-drop-right leg entry method you don't get in a 911 or Cayman. The Evora has this excellent Lotus functionality, although the sills are apparently lower and skinnier. Fantabulotus.
Autocar review said:
But it simply eclipses anything else available for less than £50,000; and runs rings around the Porsche 911 in terms of agility and driver involvement.
Lotus is modest, saying it'll sell around 2,000 Evoras a year. But here Lotus is wrong. It will sell many, many more.
Another good reviewLotus is modest, saying it'll sell around 2,000 Evoras a year. But here Lotus is wrong. It will sell many, many more.
Fetchez la vache said:
If the 911 is the aimed competator for this, then how much room is there in the back of a 911? I've only ever been in the front
Sounds like the rear is for small kids only - is that realistically what the rear seats of a 911 is?
I can get both the youngest (10 & 11 years old) in the back of my 911, so while the rear seats are tiny, they are useful for a day trip to the lakes etc.Sounds like the rear is for small kids only - is that realistically what the rear seats of a 911 is?
This new Lotus sounds really good and I hope it succeeds, but I must say my 911 has driver involvment like no other car. If your not involved, your in the hedge !
Edited by Gary C on Monday 18th May 09:50
Tuna said:
That's what I call a positive reaction - they appear to love it! Well done Lotus.Tuna said:
Autocar review said:
But it simply eclipses anything else available for less than £50,000; and runs rings around the Porsche 911 in terms of agility and driver involvement.
Lotus is modest, saying it'll sell around 2,000 Evoras a year. But here Lotus is wrong. It will sell many, many more.
Another good reviewLotus is modest, saying it'll sell around 2,000 Evoras a year. But here Lotus is wrong. It will sell many, many more.
"Lotus currently enjoy a pleasant position with the Evora the only mid-engined 2+2 on the market, so there are no direct rivals."
I drove to Germany with a mate last week and even after 500 miles or so he still had no idea that the engine was in the middle. He frankly didn't really care and nor I guess would most people. For them its th fact that the rear seats are small or that it has some at all. not where the engine is AND it has X number of seats
fbrs said:
it looks great and as a long disappointed lotus fan i really hope it's successful...
but "276bhp 3.5-litre V6 is donated from Toyota" is the most soul destroying line i've ever read... jesus, whats it out of? a $24k camry? fvcking misery. 78bhp/l. of course a lotus engine is out of the question but that's probably a $3000 lump for gods sake. surely a screaming vtec or even subaru boxer would have infinitely more appeal? or even the same engine but re badged as a mclaren/cosworth/lotus. maybe i'm wrong and the camry v6 can be freed up with an ecu change but i really think its going to struggle in that price range with that engine. i don't think the target buyer is going to want to be asked about the engine out of a $24k shopping trolley by his mates at the golf club.
If this is the VQ34 from the likes of the 350Z, then Cosworth make their own version ... but "276bhp 3.5-litre V6 is donated from Toyota" is the most soul destroying line i've ever read... jesus, whats it out of? a $24k camry? fvcking misery. 78bhp/l. of course a lotus engine is out of the question but that's probably a $3000 lump for gods sake. surely a screaming vtec or even subaru boxer would have infinitely more appeal? or even the same engine but re badged as a mclaren/cosworth/lotus. maybe i'm wrong and the camry v6 can be freed up with an ecu change but i really think its going to struggle in that price range with that engine. i don't think the target buyer is going to want to be asked about the engine out of a $24k shopping trolley by his mates at the golf club.
Edited by fbrs on Monday 11th May 16:17
Mate has one in a 350Z with a few other toys that in NA setup has a dyno prove 400bhp at the crank, and even more torque (and all this at 40celcius and 90% humidity, although we did have ice bags on the plenum
)must stick some pictures of that build up here some time actually .....
Anyhoo, sure a polite chat with the lads from Hethel and one of them could be dropped in instead ....
It's been said that there is room in there for a couple of turbos on the Toyota lump they're using, that 350bhp is easily achieved and 400 isn't unreasonable.
The big problem Lotus have is convincing people that they can do reliable cars that are a pleasure to drive. Raw power only sells to a minority. Porsche like build quality sells to the rest.
The big problem Lotus have is convincing people that they can do reliable cars that are a pleasure to drive. Raw power only sells to a minority. Porsche like build quality sells to the rest.
Tuna said:
The big problem Lotus have is convincing people that they can do reliable cars that are a pleasure to drive. Raw power only sells to a minority. Porsche like build quality sells to the rest.
This is true, although Lotus may be happy to only sell to that minority. It's not as if they are chasing Porsche-like sales figures at the moment. There's also a big difference between perceived build quality and real build quality. Lotus have been slowly getting the hang of the latter over their years of building the Elise - the latest ones really aren't far off a Boxster (although I think Lotus are more prone to letting "Friday afternoon" cars slip through the net) - but they don't seem to know how to do the former at all.
Edited by kambites on Friday 22 May 08:31
dom180 said:
dandarez said:
dom180 said:
dandarez said:
A balanced judgement of the Evora?
Autocar? Well, that might just as well be titled 'Lotus Weekly' so no good reading their write up - the usual 'praising and selling' bias in between the negatives (never many of them).
To be fair, Autocar trashed the launch version of the Europa. Autocar? Well, that might just as well be titled 'Lotus Weekly' so no good reading their write up - the usual 'praising and selling' bias in between the negatives (never many of them).
Edited by dandarez on Wednesday 13th May 12:29
BUT the Autocar Europa test was done by Chris Harris (he's no longer with Autocar...)
How many Europas have been sold? They still sell on here regularly - some look like good buys.
How can you have a dig at Autocar for praising Lotus' offerings (Europa excepted) when they've all been brilliant to drive - seems Autocar offer a pretty accurate evaluation in my view.
The Europa project was very much foisted on Lotus by Proton and as a result there's been a great deal of internal resentment and a lack of promotional enthusiasm.
In some ways Lotus could not have contemplated selling this car at a lower price.
If you buy a modest BMW 3 series, its a nice car. But for the money you can have a top of the range Vectra. The vectra is a good car, so why don't rational people buy the vectra ?
That is a trap Lotus need to avoid, they CAN'T compete by lowering the price, because it flags the product as inferior. It is not inferior in any repect other than it is not the brand leader in the segment.
Even after 13 years of Elises proving that Lotus make long term reliable cars, The Telegraph still led with the cliched L.O.T.U.S line. which is totally unfair.
Porsche have had reliability and quality issues with the Boxster especially in the roof and rear screen, yet the brand remains largely undamaged.
Lotus could not in my opinion have priced this car in the sub £40k market as it would have been to close to the Elise/Exige variants which are viewed as hardcore enthusiasts cars
Gargamel said:
In some ways Lotus could not have contemplated selling this car at a lower price.
If you buy a modest BMW 3 series, its a nice car. But for the money you can have a top of the range Vectra. The vectra is a good car, so why don't rational people buy the vectra ?
That is a trap Lotus need to avoid, they CAN'T compete by lowering the price, because it flags the product as inferior. It is not inferior in any repect other than it is not the brand leader in the segment.
Even after 13 years of Elises proving that Lotus make long term reliable cars, The Telegraph still led with the cliched L.O.T.U.S line. which is totally unfair.
Porsche have had reliability and quality issues with the Boxster especially in the roof and rear screen, yet the brand remains largely undamaged.
Lotus could not in my opinion have priced this car in the sub £40k market as it would have been to close to the Elise/Exige variants which are viewed as hardcore enthusiasts cars
how does lowering the price from above that of the Porsche make it look as though Lotus have the inferior product? If you buy a modest BMW 3 series, its a nice car. But for the money you can have a top of the range Vectra. The vectra is a good car, so why don't rational people buy the vectra ?
That is a trap Lotus need to avoid, they CAN'T compete by lowering the price, because it flags the product as inferior. It is not inferior in any repect other than it is not the brand leader in the segment.
Even after 13 years of Elises proving that Lotus make long term reliable cars, The Telegraph still led with the cliched L.O.T.U.S line. which is totally unfair.
Porsche have had reliability and quality issues with the Boxster especially in the roof and rear screen, yet the brand remains largely undamaged.
Lotus could not in my opinion have priced this car in the sub £40k market as it would have been to close to the Elise/Exige variants which are viewed as hardcore enthusiasts cars
the reason people think that it is too expensive is because it is easy to compare to Porsche models. I currently sits in a no-mans land of not quite as expensive as a 911 or as cheap as a Boxster/Cayman and so it stands proud of the crowd and attracts attention to its cost. At the moment it looks like Lotus know they don't have the kudos to compete with the 911 but don't have the finances to compete on price with the Cayman/Boxsters. Also I may be speaking out of turn in saying this but I don't think people were hoping for sub 40k but more on a parity with the Cayman S with a bit more kit as standard.
As for the reliability my Elise was pretty unreliable and some of the materials used were poor to put it mildly. This was an early example though and things have improved. Porsche though is usually very rapid to sort the problems that arise an that is where in the past Lotus were a bit too nonchalant about dealing with their issues and so picked up the reputation which due to various production reasons is still inferior to Porsches.
kambites said:
There's also a big difference between perceived build quality and real build quality. Lotus have been slowly getting the hang of the latter over their years of building the Elise - the latest ones really aren't far off a Boxster (although I think Lotus are more prone to letting "Friday afternoon" cars slip through the net) - but they don't seem to know how to do the former at all.
Agreed - and that's one reason not to put a highly tuned/stressed engine in there. It'd only take one blowing up or giving a reviewer trouble and they'd be suffering all the same build quality tales. If an owner puts one in a ditch, they could equally loose the reputation for good handling.Mikeyboy said:
At the moment it looks like Lotus know they don't have the kudos to compete with the 911 but don't have the finances to compete on price with the Cayman/Boxsters.
As it's got two more seats than the Cayman, it seems reasonable to price it above that car. The Cayman, Farbio and GTR are all in that price bracket so it doesn't look out of place particularly. It all rather depends what you want from your car.Evo's review is very good apparently - easily better than the Farbio, better than the Cayman and just a hair better than the GTR (not exactly a cheap car). Five stars. Car has it as better than the 911. That might justify the price.
Edited by Tuna on Friday 22 May 21:07
IMO it's a lot of money for a car with an "off the shelf" Toyota engine. Having said that, I couldn't care where the engine comes from so long as the total package amounts to a real driver's car and good value for money.
Jury's still out on Evora and although it looks a bit pricey I'm not going to make up my mind until I've driven one. Hopefully it won't just end up making cars like 370Z and Cayman look like a bargain.
Always in the back of my mind is the sheer amount of Corvette performance and reliability available at a similar price.
Jury's still out on Evora and although it looks a bit pricey I'm not going to make up my mind until I've driven one. Hopefully it won't just end up making cars like 370Z and Cayman look like a bargain.
Always in the back of my mind is the sheer amount of Corvette performance and reliability available at a similar price.
Tuna said:
It's been said that there is room in there for a couple of turbos on the Toyota lump they're using, that 350bhp is easily achieved and 400 isn't unreasonable.
The big problem Lotus have is convincing people that they can do reliable cars that are a pleasure to drive. Raw power only sells to a minority. Porsche like build quality sells to the rest.
Porsche build quality is a total myth The big problem Lotus have is convincing people that they can do reliable cars that are a pleasure to drive. Raw power only sells to a minority. Porsche like build quality sells to the rest.
- Evora will have Porsche thinking big style, but then Lotus are not looking for volume RonnieP said:
but then Lotus are not looking for volume
In your dreams sunshine, in your dreams. The only reason for using a world emissions compliant Toyota lump is volume sales in North America. Lotus desperately needs a car which can shift some units after the disaster which has been Europa. Elise and Exige have been through more "special editions" than you can shake a stick at. They're not selling in sufficient numbers in North America though. It's a big market and Lotus really do need to get themselves a slice. Right now Porsche, Corvette, Nissan, Mazda and BMW are shifting units but Lotus isn't. Forget the dream of hand-built Chapman cars, this is the global automotive market.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff