RE: Lotus Evora To Be Windswept And 'Blown
Discussion
Looks: great
Handling: sure it will be great too
Weight: 1350Kg? Sorry, that's not a Lotus, more like a Lotarse.
Let's put that in perspective shall we? That's the weight of a new BMW 5-door 120d, and that's built using a bonded aluminium chassis and a fibreglass body. Come on Lotus! What were you thinking?
What we *need* are sub 1000kg cars that can exploit the virtuous circle of performance through Chapman's "for speed just add lightness", that are simultaneously fast, nimble, cost-conscious and environmentally friendly. The original Elise weighed 725Kg - I can scarcely believe that the Evora weighs TWICE this amount!
Despite the fact that I am a previous Elise owner (have a young child now) I will not be buying an Evora. It's not light enough for me to consider it a Lotus, I'd rather buy an Elite or Eclat that can actually seat 4 ADULTS and still weighs 925kg. Yes, before anyone says "oh, that was before crash regulations blah blah" I'll just say "that was 35 years ago - I'm sure with the talent that Lotus has and the engineering progress over the past 4 DECADES that Lotus can design an efficient light-weight way of meeting regulations, a methodology which it can then sell to other manufacturers, instead of producing something that weighs as much as a larger, STEEL-bodied car".
Handling: sure it will be great too
Weight: 1350Kg? Sorry, that's not a Lotus, more like a Lotarse.
Let's put that in perspective shall we? That's the weight of a new BMW 5-door 120d, and that's built using a bonded aluminium chassis and a fibreglass body. Come on Lotus! What were you thinking?
What we *need* are sub 1000kg cars that can exploit the virtuous circle of performance through Chapman's "for speed just add lightness", that are simultaneously fast, nimble, cost-conscious and environmentally friendly. The original Elise weighed 725Kg - I can scarcely believe that the Evora weighs TWICE this amount!
Despite the fact that I am a previous Elise owner (have a young child now) I will not be buying an Evora. It's not light enough for me to consider it a Lotus, I'd rather buy an Elite or Eclat that can actually seat 4 ADULTS and still weighs 925kg. Yes, before anyone says "oh, that was before crash regulations blah blah" I'll just say "that was 35 years ago - I'm sure with the talent that Lotus has and the engineering progress over the past 4 DECADES that Lotus can design an efficient light-weight way of meeting regulations, a methodology which it can then sell to other manufacturers, instead of producing something that weighs as much as a larger, STEEL-bodied car".
For some reason people seem to think that fiberglass is a weight saving device over steel body panels. It isn't really for a road vehicle that has to have a fair bit of inherent strength built in, it's more about cost effectiveness for low volume production.
And it isn't just crash legislation that makes modern cars heavy, it's all of the equipment and noise insulation. You could strip all of that out to make it lighter but then that's defeated the point of the Evora over the other models, hasn't it? You can't just magic away weight, it's a big car with a lot of equipment and a big engine.
Also the 120d is about 10cm shorter and narrower than the Evora, with a big V6 stuck into it I personally think Lotus have done quite well keeping it lighter, if only fractionally. And I'd also like to see what a 120d actually tips the scales at rather than manufacturers figures.
Anyway, there's all this whingeing about weight, the reports are the Evora is light footed, handles very well, is fast AND has relatively good fuel economy. So what's the issue then? Tyre wear?
And it isn't just crash legislation that makes modern cars heavy, it's all of the equipment and noise insulation. You could strip all of that out to make it lighter but then that's defeated the point of the Evora over the other models, hasn't it? You can't just magic away weight, it's a big car with a lot of equipment and a big engine.
Also the 120d is about 10cm shorter and narrower than the Evora, with a big V6 stuck into it I personally think Lotus have done quite well keeping it lighter, if only fractionally. And I'd also like to see what a 120d actually tips the scales at rather than manufacturers figures.
Anyway, there's all this whingeing about weight, the reports are the Evora is light footed, handles very well, is fast AND has relatively good fuel economy. So what's the issue then? Tyre wear?
And ho much are Lotus going to charge for a supercharger version?? £60, 70k??
Think they are just getting to pricey. Look at how successful the Elise has been, most of which must be due to its price and availability.
This Evora should be priced to compete against cars like a Mustang, Camaro, 370z even an RX8. Rising up to Boxster and Cayman levels IMO.
Think they are just getting to pricey. Look at how successful the Elise has been, most of which must be due to its price and availability.
This Evora should be priced to compete against cars like a Mustang, Camaro, 370z even an RX8. Rising up to Boxster and Cayman levels IMO.
300bhp/ton said:
This Evora should be priced to compete against cars like a Mustang, Camaro, 370z even an RX8. Rising up to Boxster and Cayman levels IMO.
That price range would put it in direct competition with Lotus existing models, which have already had their development costs paid for, have far less expensive equipment than the rest of the market and would almost certainly be more profitable.The Pits said:
I put them in a league above porsche who I consider both eccentric and unimaginative.
You must be thinking of Bristol. Porsche got to be the most successful car company on the planet by making superb products that combined passion and engineering integrity that tens of thousands of people want to buy.Oh yes, they also have a racing pedigree second to none.
SS7
The Wookie said:
300bhp/ton said:
This Evora should be priced to compete against cars like a Mustang, Camaro, 370z even an RX8. Rising up to Boxster and Cayman levels IMO.
That price range would put it in direct competition with Lotus existing models, which have already had their development costs paid for, have far less expensive equipment than the rest of the market and would almost certainly be more profitable.I guess Lotus know what they are doing. But starting prices at £50k seems a lot IMO. I'm a potential Elise owner, but the Evora is way too much money for what I could afford on a car, so maybe I'm seeing it from only my perspective?
300bhp/ton said:
I guess. Not sure what current Elise prices are. Maybe the Evora should just be a tad more expensive in the £30-40k bracket and hav the Elise running from low £20k up to the lower Evora price bracket.
I guess Lotus know what they are doing. But starting prices at £50k seems a lot IMO. I'm a potential Elise owner, but the Evora is way too much money for what I could afford on a car, so maybe I'm seeing it from only my perspective?
It does seem alot, but I think you're right about perspective. I suppose it all really depends on whether it's good enough to cut it in that price bracket, and whether the brand can handle it. The reports seem positive on the car itself, time will have to tell with the brandI guess Lotus know what they are doing. But starting prices at £50k seems a lot IMO. I'm a potential Elise owner, but the Evora is way too much money for what I could afford on a car, so maybe I'm seeing it from only my perspective?
neon_fox said:
Weight: 1350Kg? Sorry, that's not a Lotus, more like a Lotarse.
Let's put that in perspective shall we? That's the weight of a new BMW 5-door 120d, and that's built using a bonded aluminium chassis and a fibreglass body. Come on Lotus! What were you thinking?
What we *need* are sub 1000kg cars that can exploit the virtuous circle of performance through Chapman's "for speed just add lightness", that are simultaneously fast, nimble, cost-conscious and environmentally friendly. The original Elise weighed 725Kg - I can scarcely believe that the Evora weighs TWICE this amount!
A standard Exige or Europa are not far off 1 tonne. How do you expect Lotus to produce a larger 2+2 but meeting the same weight requirement? Carbon fibre? Maybe, but expect Aston prices for the privilege...Let's put that in perspective shall we? That's the weight of a new BMW 5-door 120d, and that's built using a bonded aluminium chassis and a fibreglass body. Come on Lotus! What were you thinking?
What we *need* are sub 1000kg cars that can exploit the virtuous circle of performance through Chapman's "for speed just add lightness", that are simultaneously fast, nimble, cost-conscious and environmentally friendly. The original Elise weighed 725Kg - I can scarcely believe that the Evora weighs TWICE this amount!
JJ
Good points above about weight, price, excess size and excess equipment.
In 1996 the target weight for the Elise was 675 kgs the early prototypes missed that by about 25kgs, from then on they just kept adding weight by more that 230kgs for fully loaded recent cars.
when Lotus launced the original Elite in 1957 a fixed head every day all GRP monocoque 2 seat fully trimmed car with sound absorbing material and carpets a generous boot weighed on the road 635kgs.
52 years of technological progress and new materials manufacturing techniques later.........
Lotus have chosen to make a physically big car with the Evora so it will be heavier. Sales are directly related to price , so we will have to wait and see how many cars they sell in a year.
Former F1 Brabham and Mclaren chief designer Gordon Murray will soon reveal his very small city car,not a performance sportscar but we will then see just how light a small car can be made in 2009 and still comply with all current and forthcoming construction and use regulations and can be a daily driver. All to easy to blame the regulations for everything.
In 1996 the target weight for the Elise was 675 kgs the early prototypes missed that by about 25kgs, from then on they just kept adding weight by more that 230kgs for fully loaded recent cars.
when Lotus launced the original Elite in 1957 a fixed head every day all GRP monocoque 2 seat fully trimmed car with sound absorbing material and carpets a generous boot weighed on the road 635kgs.
52 years of technological progress and new materials manufacturing techniques later.........
Lotus have chosen to make a physically big car with the Evora so it will be heavier. Sales are directly related to price , so we will have to wait and see how many cars they sell in a year.
Former F1 Brabham and Mclaren chief designer Gordon Murray will soon reveal his very small city car,not a performance sportscar but we will then see just how light a small car can be made in 2009 and still comply with all current and forthcoming construction and use regulations and can be a daily driver. All to easy to blame the regulations for everything.
Going mainstream is not "selling out" - not if the product is great.
Porsche themselves could tell you this; Porsche was on its knees in the early 1990s, the beautifully handbuilt 993 was losing money for them. The Boxster and 996 made the company the properly mainstream manufacturer it is today. And no matter what die hard 911 purists tell you, the cars have got better. A lot better.
If this happens to Lotus, I'll be glad, as it means that their products will just improve.
Everyone's at it (apart from the trackday specialist manufacturers). My Series 1 Aero is raw, quick, has no safety or driver aids, and is utterly impractical.
The latest Series 4 is heavier, has safety aids, a bigger boot and is better finished. And it is also quicker, just as good to handle, and easier to live with, with the same fuel economy (or lack of
). If they weren't £80k (sorry, but that's a Gallardo Spider, which I would rather have than the Morgan), I would chop my S1 in for one asap. I certainly wouldn't whinge about Morgan going soft - it may be softer; but it's a better car than mine.
Porsche themselves could tell you this; Porsche was on its knees in the early 1990s, the beautifully handbuilt 993 was losing money for them. The Boxster and 996 made the company the properly mainstream manufacturer it is today. And no matter what die hard 911 purists tell you, the cars have got better. A lot better.
If this happens to Lotus, I'll be glad, as it means that their products will just improve.
Everyone's at it (apart from the trackday specialist manufacturers). My Series 1 Aero is raw, quick, has no safety or driver aids, and is utterly impractical.
The latest Series 4 is heavier, has safety aids, a bigger boot and is better finished. And it is also quicker, just as good to handle, and easier to live with, with the same fuel economy (or lack of
). If they weren't £80k (sorry, but that's a Gallardo Spider, which I would rather have than the Morgan), I would chop my S1 in for one asap. I certainly wouldn't whinge about Morgan going soft - it may be softer; but it's a better car than mine.Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 11th May 12:01
RTH said:
Good points above about weight, price, excess size and excess equipment.
In 1996 the target weight for the Elise was 675 kgs the early prototypes missed that by about 25kgs, from then on they just kept adding weight by more that 230kgs for fully loaded recent cars.
when Lotus launced the original Elite in 1957 a fixed head every day all GRP monocoque 2 seat fully trimmed car with sound absorbing material and carpets a generous boot weighed on the road 635kgs.
52 years of technological progress and new materials manufacturing techniques later.........
Lotus have chosen to make a physically big car with the Evora so it will be heavier. Sales are directly related to price , so we will have to wait and see how many cars they sell in a year.
Former F1 Brabham and Mclaren chief designer Gordon Murray will soon reveal his very small city car,not a performance sportscar but we will then see just how light a small car can be made in 2009 and still comply with all current and forthcoming construction and use regulations and can be a daily driver. All to easy to blame the regulations for everything.
It's not just that.In 1996 the target weight for the Elise was 675 kgs the early prototypes missed that by about 25kgs, from then on they just kept adding weight by more that 230kgs for fully loaded recent cars.
when Lotus launced the original Elite in 1957 a fixed head every day all GRP monocoque 2 seat fully trimmed car with sound absorbing material and carpets a generous boot weighed on the road 635kgs.
52 years of technological progress and new materials manufacturing techniques later.........
Lotus have chosen to make a physically big car with the Evora so it will be heavier. Sales are directly related to price , so we will have to wait and see how many cars they sell in a year.
Former F1 Brabham and Mclaren chief designer Gordon Murray will soon reveal his very small city car,not a performance sportscar but we will then see just how light a small car can be made in 2009 and still comply with all current and forthcoming construction and use regulations and can be a daily driver. All to easy to blame the regulations for everything.
I suspect Lotus have more than just an eye on selling the Evora in the US market. So it needs to offer something they want. And in that climate its got a lot of stiff competition. A tiny, tinny stripped out modern day Elite would probably sell as well as the original Elite did in the US.
RTH said:
52 years of technological progress and new materials manufacturing techniques later.........
Aaand you have a car that handles better, is massively faster, has better fuel economy, and is realistically livable in todays driving conditions, but just happens to be heavierI doubt the Elite would offer refinement or practicality (ignoring safety or performance) even approaching that of the Europa, so your comparison is flawed. Just because something is heavier, doesn't mean it is worse. It can be made lighter but the materials are more expensive, so you have to pay more for it.
Most cars aren't 'priced by sales' as you put it, they're primarily priced by how much they cost to build. The build costs can usually be traced back to the market segment the vehicle is targeted at.
It's not some black art building and pricing a car, it's straighforward engineering and economics
neon_fox said:
Let's put that in perspective shall we? That's the weight of a new BMW 5-door 120d, and that's built using a bonded aluminium chassis and a fibreglass body. Come on Lotus! What were you thinking?
2007 BMW 5-door 120d weight 1450Kg, with my basic mathematics skills, I do believe that's over 100kg more than the Evora.The 2004 m/y V8 Esprit was 1380Kg, I didn't hear people whinging and moaning about that cars weight
God I love you armchair critics
shoestring7 said:
The Pits said:
I put them in a league above porsche who I consider both eccentric and unimaginative.
You must be thinking of Bristol. Porsche got to be the most successful car company on the planet by making superb products that combined passion and engineering integrity that tens of thousands of people want to buy.Oh yes, they also have a racing pedigree second to none.
SS7
A lot of people are seeming to loose track of the point that the Evora is a GT car, not an all out sports car like the Elise. I figure I'm there target market, I want a comfortable yet sporting car to use on a daily basis. I have several true sports cars, although a blast to drive, are a bit tiresome for daily use. This market is about compromise, give up some of the performance for comfort (of course the closer to both the better). As for the convertible, I believe it needs to be electric, even though it's adding yet more weight. Driving either a Jag or Aston, I've come to really love being able to push a button any time the sun sneaks out from behind a cloud and have the top neatly stored. Personally, an Elise style top of this car would be a total deal breaker.
Count me in line for a supercharged convertible!
Count me in line for a supercharged convertible!
LotusJPS said:
A lot of people are seeming to loose track of the point that the Evora is a GT car, not an all out sports car like the Elise. I figure I'm there target market, I want a comfortable yet sporting car to use on a daily basis. I have several true sports cars, although a blast to drive, are a bit tiresome for daily use. This market is about compromise, give up some of the performance for comfort (of course the closer to both the better). As for the convertible, I believe it needs to be electric, even though it's adding yet more weight. Driving either a Jag or Aston, I've come to really love being able to push a button any time the sun sneaks out from behind a cloud and have the top neatly stored. Personally, an Elise style top of this car would be a total deal breaker.
Count me in line for a supercharged convertible!
Interesting point. To my mind though an electric hood is the antithesis of what Lotus is about*. IIRC the folding hardtop Z4 is 300kg heavier than the old soft topCount me in line for a supercharged convertible!
[footnote]Mind you I said that about electric windows in the Elise.[/foontote]
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