RE: SOTW: Mercedes Benz 190E 2.3-16

[Victor101]

Vidal Baboon said:

74merc said:

I had an E30 318is straight after- I know it's not an M3, but it can't be that far off in terms of dynamics?

About the same difference as between a Cosworth Sierra and a 1.8LX! The 318iS is absolutely nothing like as good as the M3.

[cpl_payne]

Vidal Baboon said:

cpl_payne said:

Vidal Baboon said:

I had an E30 318is straight after- I know it's not an M3, but it can't be that far off in terms of dynamics?
I found that to be very twitchy- almost unstable- the steering was too quick- but again, I got used to it.

Hold on - did you just call steering on a standard e30 too quick? 4+ turns lock-to-lock?

You're quick to catch on

I'll say it again so it's easier for you to understand.

The Mercedes has a huge steering wheel, the BMW had PAS and a small M Tech wheel.
Couple that to the fact the car felt twitchy, then yes, the steering felt fast when compared to the Merc.

Regardless of turns lock to lock, it feels, when using the standard steering wheel, like you are dialing in alot of movement.

Edited by Vidal Baboon on Tuesday 7th July 12:51

Aye, my bad - quoted you before reading the rest of the thread. I wonder what the MB must feel like - standard e30 steering can feel like steering a boat, a lot of dexterity is required in tight corners. Other than that in normal driving it's quite good, feels more relaxing.

[Pentoman]

As with the m3, I found a lot of the 190-16 is different to a regular 190, including the steering rack. Also LSD.. oil cooler.. two fuel pumps.. aero kit.. baffled sump, are just some of the things I know about compared to the obvious engine, box, suspension, brakes, so its quite a complete package which weighs 1300kg unoptioned.

[Shropshiremike]

Pentoman said:

As with the m3, I found a lot of the 190-16 is different to a regular 190, including the steering rack. Also LSD.. oil cooler.. two fuel pumps.. aero kit.. baffled sump, are just some of the things I know about compared to the obvious engine, box, suspension, brakes, so its quite a complete package which weighs 1300kg unoptioned.

I'm sure the Merc experts will confirm but I think the 16 valve cars had a faster steering ratio ( and different PAS pump ) to other 190s.
Depending on the road test specs you read around 3.3 or 3.5 turns lock to lock.
Roughly the same as the E30 M3 ( about 3.5/3.6 ) I think which was quicker than the standard 4.1ish turns of a regular E30.
The BMs had a smaller steering wheel as well generally which always helps to make the steering 'feel' quicker

[Shropshiremike]

Dunk76 said:

pSyCoSiS said:

williamp said:

Are the Evo's RHD?

I know the M3 is LHD only which does put me off a bit.

I think it adds to the exclusivity of the car - meaning less people want one due to that fact, hence less on our roads (not there are that many decent examples about anyway)!

All the Evos are left hookers.

They're rarer than rocking horse droppings anyway - simply because most were actually taken on the track and destroyed.

I seem to remember there being a combined total of less than 80 Evo I & IIs left worldwide out of the 1004 built, and that was sometime back.

Off topic ( but sort of related ) re the SOTW for sure, if anyone is interested, here's the old Fast Lane article on the 190 EVO 2 vs the BMW M3 Sports Evo

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b213/Mikeshrops/...

Used to see one of these cars at Curborough in the late 90s. Never saw it on track but had a great road presence in your rear view mirror on the lanes near the track
( apols for the poor quality but it's a scanned 35mm pic - no digicam last century! )

Edited by Shropshiremike on Thursday 9th July 21:58

[Shropshiremike]

Just as a reminder for people interested in the Mercs/80s metal, "5th Gear" ( on tonight at 8pm Channel 5 ) has a 2.5-16 version on the Millbrook track

[minimatt1967]

Shropshiremike said:

Just as a reminder for people interested in the Mererercs/80s metal, "5th Gear" ( on tonight at 8pm Channel 5 ) has a 2.5-16 version on the Millbrook track

what A Travesty it was too. They has the perfect opportunity to have an interesting article on 80's super saloon's, instead they have JP ragging the st out of the cars round a small road circuit. They spent more on car sharing systems

On a positive note both lovely examples

[Shropshiremike]

Don't think they ever spend long on the shootouts. Cars did look good on the track though

Link here for anyone that missed it

http://fwd.five.tv/fifth-gear/videos/shoot-outs/sh...

Edited by Shropshiremike on Monday 27th July 22:49

[Dunk76]

Well that was a bit of a waste.

Top Gear's review of the 2.5-16 a few years back in a future classics feature was more in depth.

Was the Merc wearing *cough* 16" rims there?

[alfettagtv2000]

crap test...


Of course they didn't mention the sierra was constantly flakey on the day and the merc had much higher miles....laugh

should have pitted it against an EVO!

[Shropshiremike]

alfettagtv2000 said:

crap test...


Of course they didn't mention the sierra was constantly flakey on the day and the merc had much higher miles....laugh

should have pitted it against an EVO!

'Constantly flakey'?

As to the Merc, I guess the show could only run the cars that were offered and no-one with a lower mileage one offered?

[norman156]

Shropshiremike said:

As to the Merc, I guess the show could only run the cars that were offered and no-one with a lower mileage one offered?

The Merc was obtained by a researcher coming onto the mercedes190.co.uk forum and asking who was available and could lend their car. The kind chap whos car was lent was pretty much the first peron to offer if I recall, plus most other people who offered had cars of similar milleages anyway. I've not seen many with anything under 100k on the clock

[Shropshiremike]

norman156 said:

Shropshiremike said:

As to the Merc, I guess the show could only run the cars that were offered and no-one with a lower mileage one offered?

The Merc was obtained by a researcher coming onto the mercedes190.co.uk forum and asking who was available and could lend their car. The kind chap whos car was lent was pretty much the first peron to offer if I recall, plus most other people who offered had cars of similar milleages anyway. I've not seen many with anything under 100k on the clock

I dare say there are a few with less mileage but people didn't want to offer. The programme can only use what they can get. I wouldn't have expected a different result with a low mileage Merc, all the mags did the test 20 years ago and the Sierra won round a track. It's 100kg lighter and has more torque.
The Merc has different strengths, better build and cruising ability

[Pentoman]

There has to be a lot of give-and-take in these things... surely someone could turn up with a healthy version of one of these cars, wearing some scrubbed in modern performance tyres and make 1 or 2 seconds' difference to the time? I#ve seen the Merc used and it had 160+k miles. Also... gold. tasty. .

[Shropshiremike]

Pentoman said:

There has to be a lot of give-and-take in these things... surely someone could turn up with a healthy version of one of these cars, wearing some scrubbed in modern performance tyres and make 1 or 2 seconds' difference to the time? I#ve seen the Merc used and it had 160+k miles. Also... gold. tasty. .

Have you still got your 190 Russell? I've seen lower mileage ones round and about but I guess not everyone wants to give their car to JP.
Still, it was good to see a bit of footage, even if it was short

[Pentoman]

Yep still have mine... daily usage at the moment as my 206's clutch went. I thought the 206 was meant to be the reliable daily car.

[alfastud1]

I bought one of these for 350 quid 5 years ago with no mot and underneath it was absolutely hanging,
the only thing holding the rear arches together was the bodykit!
it did rev though on the few times i took the non motd car out on the new forest country lanes.
One day 4 up i powerslid it on the road, and as it had one 205,55,15 on one rear tire and a 185,55,15 on the other it was very unbalanced(i know it was stupid to hoof a car with unmatched tires but i was showing off) and i got the most unbelievable tank slapper on, going from lock to lock about 6 times with me desperately trying not to kill my 3 friends who by now had very full underpants like myself, especially as it bounced across the public road nearly going head on with a grandad driving his maestro the other way!
I still remeber seeing the fear on grandads face as i nearly killed him and his car!
I sold it for 550 quid to a max power reader(silly muppet) and luckily he did not look underneath!
I wish i had stashed it in a barn or built a trackday car out of it!
If you get the chance, buy one, but check the exhaust manifold carefully as it has 4 360 degree loops as it comes out of the head and is 1500 quid new!
And check under the rear arches, they do rust!
If you buy a gold d reg one, it could be the one above so check it very carefully!
I think its reg was D994 cant remember the rest!