Could Ford make premium brand cars?
Discussion
ford pulled out of the premuim sector as their core business desperately needed the cash and due to their good stewardship of the PAG compnaies it sold, aston and jag (less so), they were saleable assets. They didnt sell them because theyd screwed them up, more their core business was the one that was in trouble.
chimera40 said:
Oops, getting flamed big time and deservedly, but the parts bin cars did hurt the marks a lot. Point of the topic though is still valid, ford have tried the approach of Brand improvement and have for whatever reason pulled out to a great degree and went back to core.
It is a complicated one- as I would say that a Jaguar was more a Jaguar than an Aston is an Aston.The Aston V12 uses alot of Duratec Ford parts- roller followers, valve guides, seats, valves etc etc but is breathed upon. I mean the DB7 used an XJS rear end.
It just goes to show there's no simple answer- Audis and Skodas can use VW parts heavily and yet it doesn't detract from the brand snobs from buying these. Porsche make the 924 using LT van and audi components and get slated and it dillutes the brand, Lotuses can use Ford and Rover engines and it doesn't effect their brand kudos (especially in the USA) and Aston doesnt seem adversely effected but Jaguar seemed to be, unfairly so IMO as was Porsche.
Edited by Marquis_Rex on Monday 3rd August 17:35
Sorry to dissapoint the OP, but the previous generation Fiesta was certainly not good to drive 
The ride and handling are utterly shocking. The car does all sorts of things which I thought were banished in the mid 70s. The springs and dampers don't match each other and the whole thing is just a mess. The best way to put it is that my girlfriend reluctantly puts up with my brisk driving in the Elise and 328i all the time, and goes in numerous hire cars and courtesy cars with me. The Fiesta I had the other day had her so genuinely scared that she has vowed never to go in another Ford, and actually started ranting about the dreadful ride and handling, and she's not even interested in cars!!
What's even more shocking is that the Ford Fiesta is £10,000. We had a £5,000 base spec Fiat Panda on holiday the other week and the ride was indescribably better than the Fiesta.
Now we've got that off my chest yes, I think Ford could build premium cars. However, the idea of a premium car is that something like the springs and dampers are better units and are better set up, developed and tested. That would be a big culture shock to the whole of Ford, but I'm sure they could cope. What gives me reservations is how good the Fiat Panda is for £5k and how awful the Fiesta is for £10k. Therefore I'm not sure that Ford could do what Audi, VW or BMW do for £20k or £30k, if they can't even better a Panda with twice the budget. I think if Ford tried to make a 3 series competitor for £25k it would still fall down on quality and ability.
The ride and handling are utterly shocking. The car does all sorts of things which I thought were banished in the mid 70s. The springs and dampers don't match each other and the whole thing is just a mess. The best way to put it is that my girlfriend reluctantly puts up with my brisk driving in the Elise and 328i all the time, and goes in numerous hire cars and courtesy cars with me. The Fiesta I had the other day had her so genuinely scared that she has vowed never to go in another Ford, and actually started ranting about the dreadful ride and handling, and she's not even interested in cars!!What's even more shocking is that the Ford Fiesta is £10,000. We had a £5,000 base spec Fiat Panda on holiday the other week and the ride was indescribably better than the Fiesta.
Now we've got that off my chest yes, I think Ford could build premium cars. However, the idea of a premium car is that something like the springs and dampers are better units and are better set up, developed and tested. That would be a big culture shock to the whole of Ford, but I'm sure they could cope. What gives me reservations is how good the Fiat Panda is for £5k and how awful the Fiesta is for £10k. Therefore I'm not sure that Ford could do what Audi, VW or BMW do for £20k or £30k, if they can't even better a Panda with twice the budget. I think if Ford tried to make a 3 series competitor for £25k it would still fall down on quality and ability.
Rob M77 - you're one of the few people I know who actually agree with me with regards to modern Fords.
Whilst the whole world and his dog raves about how great they are, I feel like the little lad in the Emperor's New Clothes at times....
I found the MkII Focus I had for a while absolutely shocking - poor quality, poor ride, didn't handle or grip all that well, and the steering seemed to be connected to the wheels with bungee cords.
I've only passengered in a previous Fester, that was like the Focus but cheaper.
I'm sure the Mondeo is just like a Focus but bigger and more expensive - I wasn't impressed when I looked at one in a showroom.
Whilst the whole world and his dog raves about how great they are, I feel like the little lad in the Emperor's New Clothes at times....
I found the MkII Focus I had for a while absolutely shocking - poor quality, poor ride, didn't handle or grip all that well, and the steering seemed to be connected to the wheels with bungee cords.
I've only passengered in a previous Fester, that was like the Focus but cheaper.
I'm sure the Mondeo is just like a Focus but bigger and more expensive - I wasn't impressed when I looked at one in a showroom.
Pentoman said:
Sat in traffic looking at an '08 previous-generation Fiesta, I couldn't help but imagine how good it must be to drive.
Seriously? I'd take your point if you had been looking at your favourite supercar, but there can't be many people who look at an old shape Fiesta and dream about its ride and handling.Still, if that's what does it for you...
dudleybloke said:
Alfa_75_Steve said:
dudleybloke said:
the latest mondeo is definatly a prestige motor.
Honestly, it isn't.
The list price may suggest it is, but it's a million miles from being 'prestige'.
I had a look at the Mondeo, as it was on my car list, but a brief sit in one and a prod of the controls put me off.
dudleybloke said:
the latest mondeo is definatly a prestige motor.
Its definately not. As with all Fords it looks good for 5 minutes but soon dates / falls apart. I had a c-max as a hire car recently and the quality of the fixtures and fittings was terrible. Still I did rate the ride and handling given the size of it.Pentoman said:
Sat in traffic looking at an '08 previous-generation Fiesta, I couldn't help but imagine how good it must be to drive. I also knew I would never own one, as it's too..... undiscerning. It lacks attention to detail.
If it sounds unlikely then remember everyone loves Audis. And yet they all know they're mostly just VWs. VWs are highly regarded cars, and I think there's nothing wrong in spending an extra £2k to get yourself a plusher, upmarket version of a VW. Could work for Ford?
What utter nonsense. I rather liked the last design Fiesta which was blocky in a Golf Mk I sort of way and certainly still looks quite fresh compared to the older rounded versions. I liked the facelift rear lights and quite enjoyed driving a hire version on holiday, finding it better than the seat Ibiza I'd hired a few months before - that is to say it's still cheap inside but so is the VW product. I still think it looks better than many current designs like the new Ibiza, Polo, Corsa, Jazz...If it sounds unlikely then remember everyone loves Audis. And yet they all know they're mostly just VWs. VWs are highly regarded cars, and I think there's nothing wrong in spending an extra £2k to get yourself a plusher, upmarket version of a VW. Could work for Ford?
It only really falters when you park it next to a classic icon like the MINI or Fiat 500. Undistinguished in what way? sure you're not being swayed by the badge here? What is distinguished about an Audi Golf, sorry, A3 or the new concept 5 bar gate, the A1?
I don't "love Audis" as they all look the same but in differents sizes. They are the very worst example of one size fits all corporate styling. Being pulled in by the BS and badge doesn't make the car better.
Ford pulled this trick long before Audi et al ever caught on. They used to sell Escort, Cortina and Granada Ghias by the bucketload when BMW were still some little foreign company marketing niche products. The Ghia badge was the equivalent of the prmium marques that soon grew to replace them. The gestation of Audi into a premium marque was somewhat slower than BMW as they lacked the dynamic prowess to really pull it off and it was only halo cars like the Quattro that pulled them into the public conscience. That's still partly true but they've attained that BMW badge prowess instead.
There was a time when maybe the VWs were considered a premium marque but I don't really know anyone who aspires to a Passat any more than I know anyone who aspires to an Audi except maybe an RS4. As for the Phaeton, well that pretty much bombed showing that you can't sell a cut-price Bentley that still looks as dull as a VW.
A friend of mine has an Audi A6 2.7 avant and I've been in that and find it dark, claustrophobic, not particularly comfortable and befreft of any gereat design brilliance. I've been in a Mondeo Titanium and thought it a nicer place to be, regradless of actual or perceived quality but the simple fact is that you can buy a Mondeo at a substantial diuscount so list prices don't really count for much. They also come with more stuff standard and not on an expensive otions list so in reality, the two aren't comparable in terms of cost.
So to the question. Could Ford pull off an upmarket car? I think the answer is why would they want to? If everyone only made a premium marque car, then the prices would all go up and there would be a huge void in the affordable car sector. if you mean in addition to the current range, well that's the reason they ditched the Scorpio as car tatses and requirements were changing. They thought the Mondeo could take on BMW and in some ways, it has succeeded, because they are afr better than they used to be and based on what you actually pay, not the list price, very good value.
The thing is not everyone actually wants an allegedly plush car with an allegedly upmarket badge as Rover so ably demonstrated.
Rob / Steve are you refering to the jelly mould fiesta (Si model) - the ones that were the basis for the Puma. If you are, I have to say I'm utterly puzzled by your posts.
We have a Sportka as a cheap runabout and I have to say it is without doubt one of the finest handling cars (as were the Fiesta Si and Puma pool cars I occasionally borrowed at work) I've ever driven. I've never been in a car that you can get in and drive to it's absolute limits within such a short space of time (granted the fact it only has about 95bhp helps). I'm not alone in this either as most of Jags NVH team chose them as company cars due to their low cost and immense fun.
We have a Sportka as a cheap runabout and I have to say it is without doubt one of the finest handling cars (as were the Fiesta Si and Puma pool cars I occasionally borrowed at work) I've ever driven. I've never been in a car that you can get in and drive to it's absolute limits within such a short space of time (granted the fact it only has about 95bhp helps). I'm not alone in this either as most of Jags NVH team chose them as company cars due to their low cost and immense fun.
rhinochopig said:
Rob / Steve are you refering to the jelly mould fiesta (Si model) - the ones that were the basis for the Puma. If you are, I have to say I'm utterly puzzled by your posts.
We have a Sportka as a cheap runabout and I have to say it is without doubt one of the finest handling cars (as were the Fiesta Si and Puma pool cars I occasionally borrowed at work) I've ever driven. I've never been in a car that you can get in and drive to it's absolute limits within such a short space of time (granted the fact it only has about 95bhp helps). I'm not alone in this either as most of Jags NVH team chose them as company cars due to their low cost and immense fun.
Thats the one before the one we're talking about.We have a Sportka as a cheap runabout and I have to say it is without doubt one of the finest handling cars (as were the Fiesta Si and Puma pool cars I occasionally borrowed at work) I've ever driven. I've never been in a car that you can get in and drive to it's absolute limits within such a short space of time (granted the fact it only has about 95bhp helps). I'm not alone in this either as most of Jags NVH team chose them as company cars due to their low cost and immense fun.
And it was even worse.
It was utterly shocking - no rot protection, crap interior trim, no interior space, rattly Kent based engines and diesels which couldn't pull the skin off custard. Not to mention it was a tweaked MkIII, which itself was a poor update on the MkII.
I think the key thing in the alleged choice of the Jag design team is 'cheap' and 'company car'.
Alfa_75_Steve said:
rhinochopig said:
Rob / Steve are you refering to the jelly mould fiesta (Si model) - the ones that were the basis for the Puma. If you are, I have to say I'm utterly puzzled by your posts.
We have a Sportka as a cheap runabout and I have to say it is without doubt one of the finest handling cars (as were the Fiesta Si and Puma pool cars I occasionally borrowed at work) I've ever driven. I've never been in a car that you can get in and drive to it's absolute limits within such a short space of time (granted the fact it only has about 95bhp helps). I'm not alone in this either as most of Jags NVH team chose them as company cars due to their low cost and immense fun.
Thats the one before the one we're talking about.We have a Sportka as a cheap runabout and I have to say it is without doubt one of the finest handling cars (as were the Fiesta Si and Puma pool cars I occasionally borrowed at work) I've ever driven. I've never been in a car that you can get in and drive to it's absolute limits within such a short space of time (granted the fact it only has about 95bhp helps). I'm not alone in this either as most of Jags NVH team chose them as company cars due to their low cost and immense fun.
And it was even worse.
It was utterly shocking - no rot protection, crap interior trim, no interior space, rattly Kent based engines and diesels which couldn't pull the skin off custard. Not to mention it was a tweaked MkIII, which itself was a poor update on the MkII.
I think the key thing in the alleged choice of the Jag design team is 'cheap' and 'company car'.
What in particular do you have against them handling wise? I've embarrassed a lot of much quicker cars on twisty moorland roads in our Sportka.
rhinochopig said:
What in particular do you have against them handling wise? I've embarrassed a lot of much quicker cars on twisty moorland roads in our Sportka.
Haven't driven one, and, to be honest, I have absolutely no desire to drive one.Of the modern-ish Fords I have driven, I've found them all to be over-hyped and 'rubbery'.
I've driven the last shape Fester, the MkII Focus, the MkIII Mondeo and the C-Max over the last few years. I really don't get what the fuss is about.
All of the current Fords handle very well indeed, and I have driven all of the current models. Quality wise they can hold their heads up too.
Desirable? Not really, but good for the class and I'd take one over the equivalent VW.
Prestigious? Not since the days of the MK2 Ghia X estates imo.
Desirable? Not really, but good for the class and I'd take one over the equivalent VW.
Prestigious? Not since the days of the MK2 Ghia X estates imo.
Ford is the working mans car and no matter how good a car they produce it will never be a premium car
Same as BMW no matter how bad a car they produce it will always be a premium product unless there is a major shift in brand positioning
Don't forget the 3 series sells more then the mundano
Same as BMW no matter how bad a car they produce it will always be a premium product unless there is a major shift in brand positioning
Don't forget the 3 series sells more then the mundano
It really depends what you think makes a premium car.
If it's just a badge with an image, then it would take time (like Lexus).
But to me, a "premium" car is high quality, luxurious, and has lots of kit.
I certainly wouldn't call a base spec 3 Series with cloth seats, a jiggly ride and a rattly diesel engine premium, but lots of people do....
If it's just a badge with an image, then it would take time (like Lexus).
But to me, a "premium" car is high quality, luxurious, and has lots of kit.
I certainly wouldn't call a base spec 3 Series with cloth seats, a jiggly ride and a rattly diesel engine premium, but lots of people do....
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