Could Ford make premium brand cars?

[irocfan]

tom g said:

It's worth noting that Volvos are designed completely separately from Fords, so can't really be considered as a "premium ford".

Ford of Europe vehicles are now all designed in Germany, Volvos in sweden, and if anything, Volvo's design practices are influencing Ford's (not a bad thing!)

Edited by tom g on Tuesday 4th August 09:58

don't some of the smaller Volvos have Focus underpinings?

[Alfa_75_Steve]

Jimbeaux said:

XF most unreliable?? Link?

Which? magazine, which means, even if you do get a link, the findings will be bks anyway.

Isn't the 2002-on generation S-Type one of the most reliable cars in the class? - ISTR JD Power / Top Gear surveys always rated it highly.

[Jimbeaux]

Alfa_75_Steve said:

Jimbeaux said:

XF most unreliable?? Link?

Which? magazine, which means, even if you do get a link, the findings will be bks anyway.

Isn't the 2002-on generation S-Type one of the most reliable cars in the class? - ISTR JD Power / Top Gear surveys always rated it highly.

I agree. Almost everything they had form recent years has been at the top of the charts, including the XF IIRC. I don't know where he got "they are bad" from.

[Jaguar steve]

Jimbeaux said:

Alfa_75_Steve said:

Jimbeaux said:

XF most unreliable?? Link?

Which? magazine, which means, even if you do get a link, the findings will be bks anyway.

Isn't the 2002-on generation S-Type one of the most reliable cars in the class? - ISTR JD Power / Top Gear surveys always rated it highly.

I agree. Almost everything they had form recent years has been at the top of the charts, including the XF IIRC. I don't know where he got "they are bad" from.

Article in The Times 28 July. Which? surveyed over 84000 owners of 121 different cars and reported both the XF and S Type were in the bottom 10 for reliability. The top 10 were nearly all modestly priced Japanese cars.

[Blown2CV]

no

[Alfa_75_Steve]

Jaguar steve said:

Article in The Times 28 July. Which? surveyed over 84000 owners of 121 different cars and reported both the XF and S Type were in the bottom 10 for reliability. The top 10 were nearly all modestly priced Japanese cars.

Could be that the only dullards who answer Which? surveys are the kind of people who buy modestly priced Japanese hatchbacks and never exceed 40mph in them...

[350GT]

Alfa_75_Steve said:

Jaguar steve said:

Article in The Times 28 July. Which? surveyed over 84000 owners of 121 different cars and reported both the XF and S Type were in the bottom 10 for reliability. The top 10 were nearly all modestly priced Japanese cars.

Could be that the only dullards who answer Which? surveys are the kind of people who buy modestly priced Japanese hatchbacks and never exceed 40mph in them...

You know they asked owners don't you?

[Strawman]

[Alfa_75_Steve]

350GT said:

Alfa_75_Steve said:

Jaguar steve said:

Article in The Times 28 July. Which? surveyed over 84000 owners of 121 different cars and reported both the XF and S Type were in the bottom 10 for reliability. The top 10 were nearly all modestly priced Japanese cars.

Could be that the only dullards who answer Which? surveys are the kind of people who buy modestly priced Japanese hatchbacks and never exceed 40mph in them...

You know they asked owners don't you?

Yes, I do.

The point is that people who drive modestly priced Japanese hatchbacks rarely do many miles, and rarely at any speed, so suffer the fewest problems with their cars. The dealers treat them well, as they buy a new one every 3 years, even if they only did 5k miles in their last one. They also like to tell everyone how reliable their Nisondota is.

Whereas, people who buy other brands, are more likely to cover higher mileages, at higher speeds, be company car drivers, or buy on the used market and suffer more breakdowns. They're also the kind of people who would only mention the reliability of their car when it broke.

[350GT]

And your reasoning for this is... ?

[Alfa_75_Steve]

350GT said:

And your reasoning for this is... ?

It's a Which? magazine survey.

Have you seen the kind of people who buy / read that?

[Trooper2]

Jimbeaux said:

350GT said:

Jimbeaux said:

Alfa_75_Steve said:

I wouldn't say Mercedes make nice interiors these days, and BMWs only look OK in better specced cars - ES and SE spec. are generally dire and very spartan.

Audi have it spot on, IMHO, and obviously I love Alfa interiors.

The problem with Lexus interiors is that they do have an air of 'Currys' about them, and there are far too many similarities between a Lexus interior and that of an Auris / Prius / Avensis. In fact, the navigation units appear to be pretty much lifted straight from the Prius...

Do they still have nasty '1970s radio alarm' style clocks?

ETA: Yes, on the above evidence, they do. Classy.

Edited by Alfa_75_Steve on Monday 3rd August 22:36

I think it is humorous that a Caddy or Lincoln interior looks much better than the Bimmer or Merc just shown, costs about half the price, yet gets slated as "Bad Yank interiors"....with no mention of the bland offerings of the "Prestige brands".

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/c...

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 4th August 02:12

It looks nice, yes, but I'm surprised you didn't go "Oh... That's a bit of a dissapointment" when you say in it. The knobs, and buttons felt a bit, I don't know, wrong, the centre console was the squeakiest, most annoying I have yet to witness, and it just felt 'squeaky. I've sat in Beemers, and although in my mind they are bland, they don't make a noise, even the older ones. The quality is there, but with the Lincoln, you can see that it will be a squeaky annoyance very soon. The 'rubberised' plastics were nice ans squishy, but should they creak when you press on them? Blurgh. I still think they have a way to go getting the quality right, 9despite them looking nice).

Again, you can't ignore price difference, IMO. BTW, my BMW squeaks....my Jaguar does not.

That's because Jaguars, especially of your vintage are self lubricating machines, you just have to top up the engine oil more often. As a Land Rover owner and factory trained Jag mechanic.....I know these things...

[Jimbeaux]

Trooper2 said:

Jimbeaux said:

350GT said:

Jimbeaux said:

Alfa_75_Steve said:

I wouldn't say Mercedes make nice interiors these days, and BMWs only look OK in better specced cars - ES and SE spec. are generally dire and very spartan.

Audi have it spot on, IMHO, and obviously I love Alfa interiors.

The problem with Lexus interiors is that they do have an air of 'Currys' about them, and there are far too many similarities between a Lexus interior and that of an Auris / Prius / Avensis. In fact, the navigation units appear to be pretty much lifted straight from the Prius...

Do they still have nasty '1970s radio alarm' style clocks?

ETA: Yes, on the above evidence, they do. Classy.

Edited by Alfa_75_Steve on Monday 3rd August 22:36

I think it is humorous that a Caddy or Lincoln interior looks much better than the Bimmer or Merc just shown, costs about half the price, yet gets slated as "Bad Yank interiors"....with no mention of the bland offerings of the "Prestige brands".

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/c...

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 4th August 02:12

It looks nice, yes, but I'm surprised you didn't go "Oh... That's a bit of a dissapointment" when you say in it. The knobs, and buttons felt a bit, I don't know, wrong, the centre console was the squeakiest, most annoying I have yet to witness, and it just felt 'squeaky. I've sat in Beemers, and although in my mind they are bland, they don't make a noise, even the older ones. The quality is there, but with the Lincoln, you can see that it will be a squeaky annoyance very soon. The 'rubberised' plastics were nice ans squishy, but should they creak when you press on them? Blurgh. I still think they have a way to go getting the quality right, 9despite them looking nice).

Again, you can't ignore price difference, IMO. BTW, my BMW squeaks....my Jaguar does not.

That's because Jaguars, especially of your vintage are self lubricating machines, you just have to top up the engine oil more often. As a Land Rover owner and factory trained Jag mechanic.....I know these things...

My old XJS burns no oil whatsoever thank you very much!

[350GT]

You might want to top it up then

[Jimbeaux]

Jaguar steve said:

Jimbeaux said:

Alfa_75_Steve said:

Jimbeaux said:

XF most unreliable?? Link?

Which? magazine, which means, even if you do get a link, the findings will be bks anyway.

Isn't the 2002-on generation S-Type one of the most reliable cars in the class? - ISTR JD Power / Top Gear surveys always rated it highly.

I agree. Almost everything they had form recent years has been at the top of the charts, including the XF IIRC. I don't know where he got "they are bad" from.

Article in The Times 28 July. Which? surveyed over 84000 owners of 121 different cars and reported both the XF and S Type were in the bottom 10 for reliability. The top 10 were nearly all modestly priced Japanese cars.

J.D. Power has The XF and Buick topping the reliability list:

http://www.jaguarpedia.org/jaguar-jd-powers-most-r...

This article ranks it 6 out of 12 in its class

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/r...

Should we listen to car sites or The Times?

Edited by Jimbeaux on Thursday 6th August 02:31

[deevlash]

DB7 pilot said:

As a devotee of Astons built under Ford's stewardship I'll venture an opinion.



My baby. Ford didn't have much practical input apart from writing cheques and 'There's the parts bin, help yourself'

and training the designer

[greggy50]

Alfa_75_Steve said:

dudleybloke said:

Alfa_75_Steve said:

dudleybloke said:

the latest mondeo is definatly a prestige motor.

Honestly, it isn't.

The list price may suggest it is, but it's a million miles from being 'prestige'.

iv only been a passenger in one but it felt as good as the german competition. nice seats too!

Having had a current Passat as a company car, then test driven a 3-series, A4, Saab 9-5, plus the S-Type and Chrysler 300C, I can assure you that the Mondeo isn't in the same ball-park.

I had a look at the Mondeo, as it was on my car list, but a brief sit in one and a prod of the controls put me off.

Our family thinks the latter to this my dad used to have a new shape passat and we all agree overall it is a pile of turd in comparison to the mondeo he has now. We also tried the 3 series it drove nice but could only have a boggo model for the price of a top spec mondeo and to be honest although the 3 series was a better drive the mondeo was not that far behind and can only see the point of a 3 series when you get the bigger engines. The new A4 was a nice car which he nearly went for but in the end felt was a bit too small. The 300c was okay but had a cheap feel on the inside and the company car tax was a bit steap with the only car he was very tempted by being the mazda 6 which he would have had instead if they offered the 2.2 engine at the time. My dad loves his mondeo he has now has done 25,000 miles in less than a year and has not missed a beat his passat had already been in the garage twice and needed a new gearbox in that time. It is a very good drive the 2.2tdci engine pulls very nicely and can get 45mpg with ease and at speed is a lot quieter than the passat as well. Only term it looses in is the quality of interior but as a whole he still prefers the mondeo as the passat was just so bland and boring inside and out as well as in the drive and generally crap.

My mum also has a fiesta of a similar age that the poster suggested and she loves it. We looked at various cars for her astra's, 207, focus, megane etc… And in the end was narrowed down to a vw polo and the fiesta. In the end she went for the fiesta as looked nicer and was better value also had more spec and to be honest in terms of interior quality they were pretty similar as the polo was quite disappointing as was expecting quite a solid feel to the interior but it seemed pretty cheap as with the fiesta. However again it has been very reliable and a nice car to drive as have spent a few hours behind the wheel very easy car to drive and corners nicely I did a track day in a mini cooper and must say in terms of handling the fiesta does not seem that far behind. Also although it does have a bit of a cheap feel it has a lot of spec and is certainly not nasty inside also on a 06 has clocked up 45,000 miles now and everything still feels solid and no creaks/rattles etc…

With regards to a premium brand I don’t see the need for ford to do so and feel would end in disaster. At the moment the quality of the interiors is getting better and better the new fiesta is miles ahead in terms of feel and quality compared to my mums and most modern fords I have been in had a very solid and Germanic feel to the interior. They are very reliable my dad has had various cars VW’s, Peugeots, Audi’s etc… as company cars and all have had little niggles/problems but the two fords he had held up well. Had a mondeo about 5 years ago clocked up about 100,000 miles and still felt as tight as a drum when he handed it back funnily enough the only car he had that was fault free as a company car was a alfa 156.

(apologise if spelling and grammar is poor it is rather late)

Edited by greggy50 on Thursday 6th August 03:44

[Marquis_Rex]

DB7 pilot said:

As a devotee of Astons built under Ford's stewardship I'll venture an opinion.



My baby. Ford didn't have much practical input apart from writing cheques and 'There's the parts bin, help yourself', but all credit to them for giving the design team the freedom to create this.

They did pull Aston up off it's knees with this model and it's laid the foundation for the new models you see today.

Good thread btw.

Mark.

The DB7 is bascially a released "XJ41"-which never made it into production. The DB7 is also non turbo charged- as the XJ41 was intended to be but then again it's also alot lighter. The DB7 straight six is bascially a hand assembled Jaguar straight six that was fettled and breathed upon slightly (they were stock piled when Radford was closed down ). The rear axle of the early DB7s was bascially XJS.

[DB7 pilot]

deevlash said:

DB7 pilot said:

As a devotee of Astons built under Ford's stewardship I'll venture an opinion.

Ford didn't have much practical input apart from writing cheques and 'There's the parts bin, help yourself'

and training the designer

Yes, something I missed/glossed over.

I wanted to get back to the OP's original question. With the Aston, Jaguar years under their belt, I'd have to say yes they can make premium brands and do'em well. Economics mean it'd take braver management at Ford than they have at the moment to build on past glories. When they're off the back foot, I'm sure their design teams are sitting on folders full of ideas.

As a kid of the seventies, a black RS2000 with a 'droop snoot' WAS a premium brand to me. Still feel a pang now.

[ExPat2B]

Alfa_75_Steve said:

350GT said:

Alfa_75_Steve said:

Jaguar steve said:

Article in The Times 28 July. Which? surveyed over 84000 owners of 121 different cars and reported both the XF and S Type were in the bottom 10 for reliability. The top 10 were nearly all modestly priced Japanese cars.

Could be that the only dullards who answer Which? surveys are the kind of people who buy modestly priced Japanese hatchbacks and never exceed 40mph in them...

You know they asked owners don't you?

Yes, I do.

The point is that people who drive modestly priced Japanese hatchbacks rarely do many miles, and rarely at any speed, so suffer the fewest problems with their cars. The dealers treat them well, as they buy a new one every 3 years, even if they only did 5k miles in their last one. They also like to tell everyone how reliable their Nisondota is.

Whereas, people who buy other brands, are more likely to cover higher mileages, at higher speeds, be company car drivers, or buy on the used market and suffer more breakdowns. They're also the kind of people who would only mention the reliability of their car when it broke.

What a bunch of emotive, biased, subjective testicles. Honestly Steve, sometimes I think you live in a parralel dimension.

Jap cars are reliable because :

1. They have a culture of respect for reliability.
2. They are built with world leading quality control
3. They invest in the best production facilities.
4. The workers are experienced, well trained and motivated.

You only have to live in the real world of cars for a short time to realise the truth of this. Things like the quality of the welds, the service histories that show nothing other than routine servicing, every single reliability survey they dominate the top 10.

To write off that excellent reputation as a blip caused by stodgy Which ? readers is the most laughable thing ever, especially from an Alfa owner.