RE: Honda S2000 GT 100 Edition

[Diderot]

kambites said:

The Elise 111R weighs roughly 900kg so it has roughly 145ish lb-ft/tonne. The S2000 weighs, what, 1250kg? So that's 130 lb-ft/tonne.

Hardly a huge difference.

Since Gravel Ben wants us to split hairs, it's 860kgs.

[kambites]

Diderot said:

kambites said:

The Elise 111R weighs roughly 900kg so it has roughly 145ish lb-ft/tonne. The S2000 weighs, what, 1250kg? So that's 130 lb-ft/tonne.

Hardly a huge difference.

Since Gravel Ben wants us to split hairs, it's 860kgs.

Only in very basic spec. As soon as you add things like air conditioning and the touring pack you push it above 900kg. I've seen a few of them weighed, and not one has come in under 900kg.

Having said that, I don't know how Honda quote their weights.

Edited by kambites on Monday 10th August 14:10

[alock]

briancorish said:

DJC said:

Diderot said:

GravelBen said:

It depends if you're more interested in driving or bragging about how much power you have. If you're interested in driving then its plenty.

I'd suggest that it is not enough for the crowded UK roads. Driving everywhere in 2nd gear just hoping you get a sniff of an overtaking opportunity does not make for an interesting drive.

?

I can make reasonably rapid progress whether Im in a Mk 1 Mx5, the wifeys Fabia, or the Integrale or Sagaris.

Anticipation is the key.

I think where the confusion is coming from is yes the S2000 has enough torque on paper, but it comes in very high up the rev range, meaning you can't for example cruise in 6th on a motorway at 50 and accelerate briskly up to 70 without dropping a gear and raising the revs = tiresome.

50-70mph in 6th figures from Autocar magazine:

S2000 = 8.5 seconds
BMW 320d = 8.9 seconds

Poorly informed opinions on the Internet:

S2000 = Hard work on the motorway. Cannot cruise in 6th at 50mph.
BMW 320d = Possibly the best 4 cylinder diesel engine (excluding twin turbos) makes a great motorway car. The high torque makes motroway driving effortless.

[Echelons]

briancorish said:

DJC said:

Diderot said:

GravelBen said:

It depends if you're more interested in driving or bragging about how much power you have. If you're interested in driving then its plenty.

I'd suggest that it is not enough for the crowded UK roads. Driving everywhere in 2nd gear just hoping you get a sniff of an overtaking opportunity does not make for an interesting drive.

?

I can make reasonably rapid progress whether Im in a Mk 1 Mx5, the wifeys Fabia, or the Integrale or Sagaris.

Anticipation is the key.

I think where the confusion is coming from is yes the S2000 has enough torque on paper, but it comes in very high up the rev range, meaning you can't for example cruise in 6th on a motorway at 50 and accelerate briskly up to 70 without dropping a gear and raising the revs = tiresome.

I think the problem here is that so called 'Petrolheads' are self called because they watch, and attain, their car knowledge from Top Gear and other automotive magazines.

What they think is knowledge simply isn't.

Torque = Perpendicular distance x force

Torque can be changed by a GEARBOX

That is why you accelerate faster in 1st gear than in 5th gear.

There was a good article in one of the jap mags a while ago that went into this.

[Diderot]

alock said:

briancorish said:

DJC said:

Diderot said:

GravelBen said:

It depends if you're more interested in driving or bragging about how much power you have. If you're interested in driving then its plenty.

I'd suggest that it is not enough for the crowded UK roads. Driving everywhere in 2nd gear just hoping you get a sniff of an overtaking opportunity does not make for an interesting drive.

?

I can make reasonably rapid progress whether Im in a Mk 1 Mx5, the wifeys Fabia, or the Integrale or Sagaris.

Anticipation is the key.

I think where the confusion is coming from is yes the S2000 has enough torque on paper, but it comes in very high up the rev range, meaning you can't for example cruise in 6th on a motorway at 50 and accelerate briskly up to 70 without dropping a gear and raising the revs = tiresome.

50-70mph in 6th figures from Autocar magazine:

S2000 = 8.5 seconds
BMW 320d = 8.9 seconds

Poorly informed opinions on the Internet:

S2000 = Hard work on the motorway. Cannot cruise in 6th at 50mph.
BMW 320d = Possibly the best 4 cylinder diesel engine (excluding twin turbos) makes a great motorway car. The high torque makes motroway driving effortless.

to be fair, he did say accelerate briskly. 50-70 in 8.5 secs is a lifetime.

[david_g_p]

RichyBoy said:

Have they sold all the 100 edition cars? I looked on autotrader and none except the typical demonstrators for nonbuyers to abuse. They've also deleted the s2000 from the honda website.

Not sure if this is still relevant or not.

I popped into a honda dealer in Northampton at the weekend. They still have a white limited ed s2000. It's price has been slashed since I was in there a few months back. It has an on-road label price of £25000 now.

Good to know that the dealers aren't allowed to drive them. The only wear and tear will be me sat in it moving the gear stick around like a five year old.

[skiddy1903]

it's a brilliant car, i still miss mine and think at some point i'll get another.

the torque issue really isn't an issue, there's plenty of acceleration there for pretty much any circumstance you just might need to drop a cog or two. if you're too lazy to do that then get an automatic.

i realise the high reving enginge isn't for everyone but for me it's the perfect match to the car. the fact you can drive it without going near the top cam around town and at motorway cruising speeds means it's such a usable every day car but you always know the extra 3000rpm is there when you want to have a blast out in the country or need it for overtaking.

Edited by skiddy1903 on Monday 10th August 15:11

[Diderot]

alock said:

briancorish said:

DJC said:

Diderot said:

GravelBen said:

It depends if you're more interested in driving or bragging about how much power you have. If you're interested in driving then its plenty.

I'd suggest that it is not enough for the crowded UK roads. Driving everywhere in 2nd gear just hoping you get a sniff of an overtaking opportunity does not make for an interesting drive.

?

I can make reasonably rapid progress whether Im in a Mk 1 Mx5, the wifeys Fabia, or the Integrale or Sagaris.

Anticipation is the key.

I think where the confusion is coming from is yes the S2000 has enough torque on paper, but it comes in very high up the rev range, meaning you can't for example cruise in 6th on a motorway at 50 and accelerate briskly up to 70 without dropping a gear and raising the revs = tiresome.

50-70mph in 6th figures from Autocar magazine:

S2000 = 8.5 seconds
BMW 320d = 8.9 seconds

Poorly informed opinions on the Internet:

S2000 = Hard work on the motorway. Cannot cruise in 6th at 50mph.
BMW 320d = Possibly the best 4 cylinder diesel engine (excluding twin turbos) makes a great motorway car. The high torque makes motroway driving effortless.

Actually, Alcock, Autocar uses 50-70 in 5th gear as a performance measure. The 320d does that in 7.2 secs. For a better comparison, the original 350z from 2003 did it in 5.6 secs.

Just checked the magazine and the S2000 has a listed 50-70 of 8.9 secs in 5th gear, which is absolutely lamentable and a perfect demonstration that the car is functionally devoid of torque.

[skiddy1903]

Diderot said:

alock said:

briancorish said:

DJC said:

Diderot said:

GravelBen said:

It depends if you're more interested in driving or bragging about how much power you have. If you're interested in driving then its plenty.

I'd suggest that it is not enough for the crowded UK roads. Driving everywhere in 2nd gear just hoping you get a sniff of an overtaking opportunity does not make for an interesting drive.

?

I can make reasonably rapid progress whether Im in a Mk 1 Mx5, the wifeys Fabia, or the Integrale or Sagaris.

Anticipation is the key.

I think where the confusion is coming from is yes the S2000 has enough torque on paper, but it comes in very high up the rev range, meaning you can't for example cruise in 6th on a motorway at 50 and accelerate briskly up to 70 without dropping a gear and raising the revs = tiresome.

50-70mph in 6th figures from Autocar magazine:

S2000 = 8.5 seconds
BMW 320d = 8.9 seconds

Poorly informed opinions on the Internet:

S2000 = Hard work on the motorway. Cannot cruise in 6th at 50mph.
BMW 320d = Possibly the best 4 cylinder diesel engine (excluding twin turbos) makes a great motorway car. The high torque makes motroway driving effortless.

Actually, Alcock, Autocar uses 50-70 in 5th gear as a performance measure. The 320d does that in 7.2 secs. For a better comparison, the original 350z from 2003 did it in 5.6 secs.

Just checked the magazine and the S2000 has a listed 50-70 of 8.9 secs in 5th gear, which is absolutely lamentable and a perfect demonstration that the car is functionally devoid of torque.

it shows nothing of the sort.

it shows that the car needs to be driven in a different way.

no s2k owner would try and accelerate from 50-70 mph in 5th gear and expect it to be the quickest method. drop to third and away you go though. fair enough that might be too much like hard work for some but it in no way means the car is functionally devoid of torque.

[Diderot]

skiddy1903 said:

Diderot said:

alock said:

briancorish said:

DJC said:

Diderot said:

GravelBen said:

It depends if you're more interested in driving or bragging about how much power you have. If you're interested in driving then its plenty.

I'd suggest that it is not enough for the crowded UK roads. Driving everywhere in 2nd gear just hoping you get a sniff of an overtaking opportunity does not make for an interesting drive.

?

I can make reasonably rapid progress whether Im in a Mk 1 Mx5, the wifeys Fabia, or the Integrale or Sagaris.

Anticipation is the key.

I think where the confusion is coming from is yes the S2000 has enough torque on paper, but it comes in very high up the rev range, meaning you can't for example cruise in 6th on a motorway at 50 and accelerate briskly up to 70 without dropping a gear and raising the revs = tiresome.

50-70mph in 6th figures from Autocar magazine:

S2000 = 8.5 seconds
BMW 320d = 8.9 seconds

Poorly informed opinions on the Internet:

S2000 = Hard work on the motorway. Cannot cruise in 6th at 50mph.
BMW 320d = Possibly the best 4 cylinder diesel engine (excluding twin turbos) makes a great motorway car. The high torque makes motroway driving effortless.

Actually, Alcock, Autocar uses 50-70 in 5th gear as a performance measure. The 320d does that in 7.2 secs. For a better comparison, the original 350z from 2003 did it in 5.6 secs.

Just checked the magazine and the S2000 has a listed 50-70 of 8.9 secs in 5th gear, which is absolutely lamentable and a perfect demonstration that the car is functionally devoid of torque.

it shows nothing of the sort.

it shows that the car needs to be driven in a different way.

no s2k owner would try and accelerate from 50-70 mph in 5th gear and expect it to be the quickest method. drop to third and away you go though. fair enough that might be too much like hard work for some but it in no way means the car is functionally devoid of torque.

So, having to drop to 3rd on the motorway just to make reasonable progress is somehow acceptable or desirable?

Edited by Diderot on Monday 10th August 15:29

[Dracoro]

This reminds me of the top gear where as shopping trolley beat the 400BHP EVO.

Some cars you need to use the gears, some you don't. Buy whichever you like best.

btw, at 50 you only need to drop to 3rd for max acceleration. 4th gives you ample, 5th - as much as most cars and 6th will still beat something like my wife's Focus which although not fast at all, has adequate day to day power.

[alock]

Diderot said:

to be fair, he did say accelerate briskly. 50-70 in 8.5 secs is a lifetime.

Differently definition of briskly. To me it means daily driving making good progress. It'll happily do this in 6th.

Diderot said:

Actually, Alcock, Autocar uses 50-70 in 5th gear as a performance measure. The 320d does that in 7.2 secs. For a better comparison, the original 350z from 2003 did it in 5.6 secs.

Just checked the magazine and the S2000 has a listed 50-70 of 8.9 secs in 5th gear, which is absolutely lamentable and a perfect demonstration that the car is functionally devoid of torque.

Sorry I didn't quote the actual version of that engine. The last Autocar I bought (about 18 months ago) quoted top-gear (which I assume means 6th in a car with 6 gears) and will probably have had a different state of tune to the engine you are now getting figures for.

I'm not claiming it will be anywhere near as fast as something like a 350Z when you potter around in 6th. All I'm just trying to do it counter the argument many put forward that it is hard work in normal driving. Day to day in a high gear it is the same as most normal cars with circa 150bhp. It keeps up with traffic well and you can make good progress through the average traffic.

[kambites]

Diderot said:

So, having to drop to 3rd on the motorway just to make reasonable progress is somehow acceptable or desirable?

It's hardly needed to make reasonable progress - the thing is as fast as most cars in top gear. I personally don't view it as a problem to have to change down into third in order to switch lanes in the rare situation where there is a huge speed differential between the two lanes.

It's not as if you have to change down to maintain the motorway speed limit on hills or anything.

Edited by kambites on Monday 10th August 16:49

[havoc]

Re: Elise 111R / S2000 - driven both, and the Elise was MARGINALLY easier to make progress in in lower gears, but ultimate performance was remarkably similar - both peaky engines requiring you to use the 'box.

Re: 50-70 in 5th/6th - FFS, I'll say it again - if you're functionally incapable of using a gearbox, buy an auto and stop whinging about a car that's designed to be driven in a different way to your lazy-arse turbo's!

- The S2000 is NOT a M-way car. I don't think many people would want it to be optimised for M-ways. That you need to adapt YOUR driving style to THAT car is no different to trying to drive a diesel on a B-road, or a big rwd V8 in the snow...you need to think a bit more about what you're doing...

[Ste_Nova]

I'll always try and avoid the motorway in my S... cause it's no fun!

[Berger 3rd]

I mentioned this a couple of pages ago about 6th gear, of course you are not going to get from 50 to 70 or whatever at jaw dropping pace, but there is still more than enough for normal driving in 6th or 5th to move along quicker than the average car. Yes you are not going to get peak performance out of the car driving it like that,but it most deffinatley is not a chore/tireing/hardwork driving it below 6krpm on motorways etc, and who honestly are these people that want to drive it around all day like they are in a race?

you simply dont need 240bhp all day everyday, so you dont have to suffer the intolerable hardship of changing down a gear, or reving to 9000rpm for everyday driving, be it motorway or otherwise, there is simply enough power if you drive it normaly. i dont hear people who drive other 2.0 litre cars like focuses and mondeos saying there cars are hard work for everyday driving? if you insist on bouncing it off the redline all day long so you are using as much of the cars performance as you can then fine, but I dont know wanyone who drives ANY car like that.

[Diderot]

havoc said:

Re: Elise 111R / S2000 - driven both, and the Elise was MARGINALLY easier to make progress in in lower gears, but ultimate performance was remarkably similar - both peaky engines requiring you to use the 'box.

Re: 50-70 in 5th/6th - FFS, I'll say it again - if you're functionally incapable of using a gearbox, buy an auto and stop whinging about a car that's designed to be driven in a different way to your lazy-arse turbo's!

- The S2000 is NOT a M-way car. I don't think many people would want it to be optimised for M-ways. That you need to adapt YOUR driving style to THAT car is no different to trying to drive a diesel on a B-road, or a big rwd V8 in the snow...you need to think a bit more about what you're doing...

Yes I take your point - up to a point. The point is (sorry couldn't resist ) that the Elise and the S2000 aren't real competitors, and indeed the Elises I've driven have all been about cornering, steering and agility rather than outright pace (though the new S/C is fecking lovely and fecking swift and I'm sorely tempted...); it goes without saying that the Elise isn't a great motorway car (but that's not its raison d'être) and one would naturally have other cars for long distances. Whereas cars like the Z4, 350Z, S2000 need to be less compromised, more capable of being an everday car, an only car, carrying clobber, doing a south of france trip etc. And as such, that is where my critique of the S2000 is coming from.

Yes I loved screaming the tits off the engine in 2nd gear, but, as I soon found out on the weekend I had one on test, there's simply not enough grunt. It's still a good looking car, brilliantly made, and I'm sure a great ownership proposition. But why oh why oh why didn't Honda supercharge the thing? That's perhaps the most annoying thing of all. Instantly you'd have had a car with serious pace, flexibility and its character intact. (It's the same thing with the RX8 - needs a bloody turbo).

[D*S]

Put simply the s2000 is a good all rounder - its a "my first RWD" and ticks alot of boxes for people in terms of looks, practicality etc, in standard form they are fun to drive. Im a fan of the standard setup of the early car which are very raw and nervous.

And yes a supercharger does transform them - with the original comptech SC which i have it only comes on boost at 5000rpm and it then goes a little crazy ;-) Is it a motorway cruiser then ? nope the gearing is still the same - is it faster in 50- 70 in 5th /6th gear ? No idea. Its built to be involving so i tend to use the gears.

[mans best]

[quote] But why oh why oh why didn't Honda supercharge the thing?.




[/quote]

That would be too easy Went to Italy and back over Easter weekend in mine with a stop at the 'Ring on the way back and the whole trip was effortless and fantastic, roof down all the way. Very little fatigue, lots of engine noise when we wanted it and, when we didn't, relaxing enough to take in the scenery.

Bliss

[Steve350]

You get a fair bit of performance from the Honda at a reasnable price, but i guess unless you want a car that needs thrashing all the time to get the performance its not for you.

Like most other people on here id much prefer something with a bigger engine, more luxury and thats much easier to extract the performance from.

Will the fanboys please stop trying to tell everyone that its the best car ever bar non, it isnt and never has been for anyone except yourselfs (and your in the minority) the best car is the one that the individual finds the most exciting or has the most passion for. Budget offten dictates what people choose to drive, if you can afford a Ferrari or Lambo your not exactly going to buy an S2000 are you?