RE: Radical Smashes Nordschleife Record

[PhillipM]

Mr_B said:

Your S1 Elise was modified to not be able to clear speed humps. My stock S1 will clear any UK speed hump at speed and doesn't come close to hitting any of them.

I've got a bog-standard 1.6 Brava that knocks it's front bumper off over most speedbumps....

Edited by PhillipM on Sunday 27th September 02:22

[s3fella]

Chris, if you dont like it, fine, but stop banging on about it time and time again! You have about 50% of your posts moaning about Radical. Clearly you have a beef with them and I suspect it is far more than you "being insulted by their marketting", (I dont think you are their target audience as clearly not a potential customer! :laugh )
Maybe SportAuto have not commented as they are a German Magazine and the Radical is not available in Road Legal form over their IIRC? Or maybe they just dont like British firms or people? Oooh, maybe they too are guilty of "censorship" just like you say Radical are? Who cares! ?

Personally I go shopping for cars that appeal along a number of criteria depending on what I want to use it for. "If" I was after a trackday car that I could if wanted drive to the circuit, (save a tow car, trailer, and the associated storage space) then after seeing that quite awesome video, I'd certainly consider the Radical, along with others. Hell even if I wanted a non road legal track car, there is not much available that could offer the ultimate speed.
Most of us buy our cars in the UK, the Radical IS UK road legal and Joe Public CAN buy one if they want one. They are quick, very quick, and extremely quick around the Ring it would seem. Quicker than any other road legal car that has yet put up a time it seems..........what's the problem with them saying so?? If no one else wants to try using the same interpretation of the "rules" as Radical, it may not be that the idea is pointless ans has no context, as you suggest, it could just be they know they wont beat it! Or maybe they focus their marketting on other things, like image, safety and LED lighting that appeal across a broader specturm?

Carry on with your one man campaign against the "injustice" of this (in your own words "meaningless") claim if you like and carry on with your "beef" against this manufacturer. But you will continue to come across a little bitter and sorry to say a bit of a nob IMO. (All the "guilty of censorship" stuff, FFS get real!!!)

Whatver your problem is with them, it is clearly more than you are letting on regarding their "claims" here. Share it with us if you like, if not, I am afraid the number and vitriolic nature of your comments seem a little irrational.



I really enjoyed the vid as I am sure most PHers did. Well done Radical.

[Chris Eyre]

Nonsense - if you don't want to discuss it, don't post, and don't read in.

Radical have a history of bulldozing their way into road car events where their cars aren't within spririt by any stretch. This has now been going on for around 8 years.

That is all there is to this.

s3fella said:

Well done Radical.

For producing a video. Quite.

[GingerWizard]

Chris Eyre said:

Nonsense - if you don't want to discuss it, don't post, and don't read in.

Radical have a history of bulldozing their way into road car events where their cars aren't within spririt by any stretch. This has now been going on for around 8 years.

That is all there is to this.

s3fella said:

Well done Radical.

For producing a video. Quite.

chris, i know what your saying.....but... you have said it enough now. Anyhow its the fastest currently availabal production car you can buy to lap the ring. end of.

[s3fella]

Chris Eyre said:

Nonsense - if you don't want to discuss it, don't post, and don't read in.

Radical have a history of bulldozing their way into road car events where their cars aren't within spririt by any stretch. This has now been going on for around 8 years.

That is all there is to this.

s3fella said:

Well done Radical.

For producing a video. Quite.

Worst, "Mr Radical tapped my missus" post ever.

Buldozing now are they? I bet they are the fastest buldozers in the world.
So your beef is that they enter road car events in their road cars, win and you dont like it!? Tell me what event they entered to run around the Ring then..?
What are the Rules and regs that they are in breach of? Cos there was me thinking the Ring is merely a de reistricted toll road, which they drove to and drove around?

What is stopping you building a road car to go and beat them, apart from lack of talent and skill?

You sound even more bitter and twisted the more you post. Maybe you are just finding the competition a bit strong?

Get over it. You may start to enjoy life a bit more. Feel free to post a vid of your rocketship around the Ring, we will tell you what we think of it.

Oh and in my book any British road or sports car manufacturer that produces a decent product should be suported and not bhed about like a little girl.

Edited by s3fella on Sunday 27th September 17:34

[americancrx]

Can I point out that the maintenance schedule for the Radical is for racing time? Compared to any production car I've ever seen competing (aside from the invincible Supras a few years back) the service intervals are very long.

Most of the cars the Radical is being said to be "less practical" than on this thread aren't that much more suitable for road use. Would you use a Zonda or Maserati MC-12 on a rainy or slushy day? Would you drive one downtown, through the city traffic? Would you take either on a long vacation and leave it in the parking lot of a Motel 6? I'd suspect that the running costs for 50,000 miles of road driving would be similar - you may need to replace more parts on the Radical but they'd be much cheaper and easier to replace than Ferrari, Porsche, or Pagani components.

[Gedon]

Cutting the crap here, it's merely a willy waving contest between 2 camps.

"I've got a 850i, F1, Merc 700SL, etc and a race kit car shouldn't beat the sort of thing I like/have, my type of car is the best"

"I can't/won't afford something like an F1, 550, Lambo, and so I think the kit car should take the glory".

Just out of objective interest. What class would the Radical fit into at a usual MSA Speed Hillclimb, like Prescott?

The first camp of people would argue Sports Libre (Crazy track st)
The second would argue Limited Production Roadgoing Kit Cars....




Here are the regs for perusal. I think that these would be a good guide for the arguments we are having.....

• *************************************************************************

2009 Regulations*


The following regulations will apply to both the Hill Climb and Sprint Championships.
1. Classes are as follows:
A1. Series Road Production Cars up to 1400cc
A2. Series Road Production Cars over 1400cc up to 1800cc
A3. Series Road Production Cars over 1800cc up to 2600cc
A4. Series Road Production Cars over 2600cc
B1. Limited Production Road Kit Cars. Car engines up to 1400cc & M/C engines up to 875cc
B2. Limited Production Road Kit Cars. Car engines over 1400cc up to 1800cc & M/C engines over 875cc up to 1125cc
B3. Limited Production Road Kit Cars. Car engines over 1800cc & M/C engines over 1125cc
C1. Modified Production Saloons & Sports Cars up to 1400cc
C2. Modified Production Saloons & Sports Cars over 1400cc up to 1800cc
C3. Modified Production Saloons & Sports Cars over 1800cc up to 2600cc
C4. Modified Production Saloons & Sports Cars over 2600cc
C5. Modified Production Kit Cars. Car engines up to 1400cc & M/C engines up to 875cc
C6. Modified Production Kit Cars. Car engines over 1400cc up to 1800cc & M/C engines over 875cc up to 1125cc
C7. Modified Production Kit Cars. Car engines over 1800cc & M/C engines over 1125cc
D1. Sports Libre Cars up to 1400cc
D2. Sports Libre Cars over 1400cc up to 1800cc
D3. Sports Libre Cars over 1800cc
E1. Racing Cars up to 600cc
E2. Racing Cars over 600cc up to 1100cc
E3. Racing Cars over 1100cc up to 1600cc
E4. Racing Cars over 1600cc


Note 1: All cars with engines running on diesel fuel will be subject to a 30% capacity reduction. e.g. 2000cc diesel engines equate to 1400cc and will be eligible for class A1 or B1 according classification under 2 a) or 2 i). Cars with engines using non-diesel fuel and fitted with forced induction, will be subject to a 40% capacity increase (GR. I. 49).

Note 2: Series Production Road Cars are defined as cars produced in large numbers by major manufacturers.

Note 3: Limited Production Road Cars are defined as cars produced in low numbers by specialist manufacturers. For example cars such as Caterham, Westfield, TVR, Lynx, Lotus Exige etc.

Note 4: The onus of responsibility for the eligibility of vehicles competing in the championships rests with the Entrant/Competitor. In the event of a dispute concerning the compliance of a vehicle to the regulations, the onus will be on the competitor to satisfy the organisers, NOT the organisers to prove compliance.

Note 5: Event organisers are urged to use the above class structure to the advantage of championship contenders. Organisers do however have the right to vary classes if it is deemed necessary. See regulation 7.

2. Classes A1,A2, A3 and A4 must comply with the following:
a) ELIGIBILITY.
Any Series Production Saloon or Sports Car, plus Limited Production Cars manuafactured before 01.01.1972. Exceptions are, irrespective of date of manufacture, Lotus 7 and all derivatives therefrom.
All cars must be fully road legal, carry a valid tax disc and have a valid MOT certificate, where applicable. Cars must comply in all ways with the Road Traffic Acts and Construction & Use regulations. Cars must also conform to the MSA Vehicle Safety Regulations for Speed Events.
The use of TRADE PLATES is prohibited.
The ASWMC reserve the right to re-classify any car in the interests of maintaining parity within the category.
b) ENGINE.
i) Where cars are, or have been, offered by the manufacturer with alternative body styles, e.g. sallon, coupe, roadster, GT etc. An engine offered for any manufacturer listed bodystyle is acceptable.
ii) The engine MUST remain in the same position and orientation as that originally specified by the manufacturer
iii) Cylinder block and cylinder head must have the same construction and material as the original engine, including alternatives as in i).
iv) It must have the same number of cylinders as the original.
v) It must have the same number of valves per cylinder and the same method of valve operation as the original.
vi) All other components and modifications are without restriction.
vii) Engine capacity may be increased by boring and/or stroking, but must always remain within the maximum for the class.
c) GEARBOX / FINAL DRIVE.
The gearbox and differential casings must be as originally manufactured, and retained and fitted in their original positions. The ratios and other internals are free.
d) SUSPENSION.
Suspension must be of the same type and method of operation as that offered by the manufacturer for the vehicle. Shock absorbers are free as to type, method of operation and position of location. The addition or change of anti-roll bar(s), anti-tramp bar(s) and stabilising bar(s) is allowed.
e) WHEELS.
Wheel sizes are free but must all be of the same diameter, unless different diameters are fitted as standard by the manufacturer.
f) TYRES.
Any radial ply tyre is allowed which is fully road legal and capable of acceptance by an Annual Dept of Transport Vehicle inspection (MOT Test). Tyres marked “Racing Purposes Only” or similar wording are not allowed. Cross Ply tyres are not allowed. There are no maximum tyre sizes. Cars with tyres offered as manufacturers standard or optional fitting, of wider section, of lower aspect ratio, may be eligible. The onus of proving eligibility to use such tyres is the responsibility of the competitor.
g) BODYWORK.
The bodywork must conform to the manufacturers silhouette above the centre line of the wheels. The bodyshell and/or chassis must be of the same material as originally specified. No body panels may be replaced by panels constructed of a material different than originally specified, except engine and boot covers. No additional holes or powere bulges are permitted in these two items. Modifications to the floor pan and inner wheel arches are prohibited.
Wheel arch extensions may be fitted but must not exceed 2 inches in width at any point, except where available as a factory option.
h) INTERIOR FIXTURES & FITTINGS.
Removal of seats and interior trim (with the exception of carpets/floor mats), is prohibited.
Front seats may be replaced by fully trimmed "competition" seats. Rear seats must remain as original and be fitted.
Windscreen may be replaced by one constructed of laminated glass. The construction material of all other windows may not be changed and the opening mechanism, as specified by the manufacturer, must remain fitted and be operable.
Internal safety roll-over bar(s) may be fitted, but no suspension loads may be fed into them.

Classes B1, B2 & B3.
i) ELIGIBLITY.
Cars eligible for this category include Kit Cars, Replica Cars and any other cars manufactured after 1.1.1972, in limited numbers. Kit Cars must be, or have been listed in "Kit Car" magazine, plus any other car ever available in kit or component form, unless eligible for Classes A1 to A4.
All cars must be fully road legal, carry a valid tax disc and have a valid MOT certificate, where applicable, for that vehicle. Cars must comply in all ways with the Road Traffic Acts and Construction & Use regulations. Cars must also conform to the MSA Vehicle Regulations for Speed Events.
All cars in these classes must also comply with 2b) i) to vii), c), e) and f) above.
Cars defined as complying with the above, are NOT eligible to contest classes A1 to A4.
Onus of proof of eligibility of these classes rests with the competitor.
j) ENGINE.
Only one engine may be fitted. Car engines must comply with regulation 2b). Motorcycle engines must be, or have been, offered by a manufacturer for a production motorcycle.
k) ELECTRICAL.
All exterior lighting, including headlights, side, tail and indicator lights, must be fitted and function to MOT requirements.
A battery and starter motor capable of repeated starts must be fitted and operable by the driver whilst normally seated.
A fully operational alternator/generator must be fitted. A charge indicator light, functioning in the same mode as the original, must be fitted and functional.

Classes C1, C2, C3 & C4.
l) ELIGIBILITY
Cars conforming to the MSA definition of Modified Production Cars (Hillclimbs & Sprints). PLUS any other Saloon or Sports Cars, homologated or otherwise, manufactured in small numbers, which are not eligible for classes A1 to A4.
Rally Cars or Sports Cars, which at any time were homologated into Group B, are prohibited.

Classes C5, C6 & C7.
m) ELIGIBILITY.
Eligible Kit Cars must be, or have been, listed in "Kit Car" magazine, plus any car ever available in kit or component form, unless classified as eligible for Classes C1 to C4.
n) ENGINE.
Only one engine may be fitted. Car engines must comply with regulation 2b). Motorcycle engines must be, or have been, offered by a manufacturer for a production motorcycle.

Classes D1, D2 & D3.
o) ELIGIBILTY.
Cars shall conform to the current MSA definitions for Sports Libre Cars:- Special Saloons; Hill Climb Super Sports Chassis Cars; Sports Racing Cars and Group B Sports Cars (Rally Group B) [MSA GR I. 82].
PLUS cars which are ineligible for any other class, but are deemed acceptable in the championship by the Eligibility Scrutineer.

3. Bogey times for each of the above classes at every venue used will be calculated as follows:-
a) By adding 15 seconds to the time stated in the Official ASWMC Table of the Class Records for each venue, issued at the start of each season.
b) The time contained in the Official ASWMC Table of Class Records for each venue will be the fastest time previously recorded by a registered contender in an ASWMC championship round.
c) At new venues or revised courses at an existing venue, the bogey time will be calculated as in 3(b) above, on the first occasion that a valid time is set by an ASWMC contender in each of the above classes.
d) Where revisions to class structure take place, the Championship Co-ordinator shall determine the ASWMC Class Record for the new class(es) at each venue before the start of the new season using results data from past events. Otherwise one of the following two methods:
Set the ASWMC Class Record by comparing ASWMC Class Records for adjacent classes, with smaller or larger engine capacity, that have established ASWMC Class Records and assessing a reasonable difference from those times.
If you have to assess a new record for, say, B3 and there is an established record for B2, you look at the ration between A2 & A3 and maybe C2 & C3 and calculate an initial bogey time pro rat to B2 using that data.
e) Where, in the course of the annual revision of ASWMC Class Records (3(f) below) the Championship Co-ordinator discovers that, by relating data of equivalent class divisions in other categories, ASWMC Class Records in any class may be slower than could reasonably be expected, he may present substitute times for that class to be ratified by the Executive.
f) Bogey times will remain in force throughout the year and recalculated at 31st December where class records are broken during the season. All times will be expressed to 0.01second.

4. Championship points will be awarded at the rate of 0.01 point for each 0.01 second by which a driver improves on his/her class bogey time. The maximum number of points that may be scored is 17, except in the case of bogey times set as in 3b) above, when it will be 15. Drivers failing to improve on their bogey time will score no points.

5. The championship will be awarded to the competitor scoring the highest number of points according to the number of events run, as set out in Championship Rule 19.
If this results in a tie, the winner shall be decided by applying the following in turn, until a result is achieved:
i) Scores from rounds discounted under Championship Rule 19 will be re-introduced in descending order until a result is achieved.
ii) The competitor with the greater number of class wins will be declared the winner.
iii) The competitor gaining his or her total of points in the lesser number of rounds contested will be declared the winner.
iv) If the tie is not resolved by the above methods (5(i), 5(ii), 5(iii)) then the Championship will be declared a tie with 2 or more winners.

6. When registering contenders MUST nominate on the Registration Form the class within which they intend to contest the championship and in which their championship points are to be awarded, on the Championship Registration Form. Contenders wishing to change class MUST notify the Championship Secretary in writing, by e-mail or post. Letters must be postmarked not later than the day prior to the event in which the change is to be operative. The onus is on the championship contender to prove that an e-mail was sent, and received, within the allowed time scale. Failure to comply with the above may result in loss of championship points.

7. Clubs may vary, amalgamate or subdivide classes at events as they feel necessary, but must provide the Championship Secretary with Entry Lists and Results showing the cars competitors actually drove so as to allocate points correctly. Especially in respect of Regulation 2 above.

8. No more than two rounds shall normally be held at any venue using the same course. Venues with more than one course shall be limited to not more than two rounds on any course. This regulation may be waived to maintain the viability of the championship.

Edited by Gedon on Monday 28th September 09:37

[Chris Eyre]

s3fella said:

What are the Rules and regs that they are in breach of?

Production road legal cars.

• Prodn = ? race car production?
• Road legal in the UK, but < > TUV regs (to whom others have adhered).

You can rant sir, but you clearly haven't read (or remembered) the points made in this thread already.

Gedon said:

Just out of objective interest. What class would the Radical fit into at a usual MSA Speed Hillclimb, like Prescott?

The first camp of people would argue Sports Libre (Crazy track st)
The second would argue Limited Production Roadgoing Kit Cars....

Here are the regs for perusal. I think that these would be a good guide for the arguments we are having.....

Also worth considering FIA production car definitions:

• Minimum 5,000 (clearly not much use for supercar producers, but this might get some sense back into this contest).
• Or 500 (Touring Car evolutions?)
• Or 200 (Group B)

etc.

The only lesson in all of this is: if a contest exists with no clear rules on what you can or cannot do, then:

1. squabbling is guaranteed.
2. the credibility of the contest is lost

Radical knew this in 2005 when the previous record attempt was ignored by Sport Auto, yet they still for some reason dip an oar in.

[flemke]

Gedon said:

Cutting the crap here, it's merely a willy waving contest between 2 camps...

Beyond noting the irony of one's starting a post with "cutting the crap here..." and then feeling the need to share with us about a hundred lines of dizzying minutiae from some hill climb formulae, I must point out that, for one of the "2 camps", this discussion has nothing to do with "willy waving".

Most of the people who find this example of Radical's self-promotion to be a tedious sign of weakness couldn't care less what car holds "the record". They do care about intellectual honesty. That is what this discussion is about, and where Radical should have done better.

[Chris Eyre]

flemke said:

Most of the people who find this example of Radical's self-promotion to be a tedious sign of weakness couldn't care less what car holds "the record". They do care about intellectual honesty. That is what this discussion is about, and where Radical should have done better.

Absolutely.

But now that their self-promotion includes deleting comments made on youtube, such dishonesty now appears to extend to restricting free speech.

Edited by Chris Eyre on Monday 28th September 14:05

[zakelwe]

Chris Eyre said:

zakelwe said:

Units made should not come into it as you are aware.

Could you elaborate on what constitutes a road legal production car please?

Two boxes to tick:

1) Road legal (preferably on the same terms as TUV, but clearly no one in the UK will subscribe to that)
2) Production, and the implied volume of X-amount this necessitates.

Take a clipboard and see how you get on. Eagerly waiting to hear your findings.

How does that answer my statement that number produced is irrelevant?

Regards
Andy

[zakelwe]

Chris Eyre said:

But now that their self-promotion includes deleting comments made on youtube, such dishonesty now appears to extend to restricting free speech.

Edited by Chris Eyre on Monday 28th September 14:05

Oh I get it now, you felt you got a personal slight so now you have a bee in your bonnet. Good luck milking it for all it's worth!

Regards
Andy

[Chris Eyre]

zakelwe said:

How does that answer my statement that number produced is irrelevant?

Regards
Andy

Your statement is entirely incorrect and you are in danger of treading the same dishonest path as Radical. The number produced does matter.

Youtube comment:

Chris Eyre said:

Radical have taken a 'production race car', and made a de-minimis quantity road legal. That does not make them 'road legal production cars'.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/de%20minimis


Edit:

zakelwe said:

Chris Eyre said:

But now that their self-promotion includes deleting comments made on youtube, such dishonesty now appears to extend to restricting free speech.

Oh I get it now, you felt you got a personal slight so now you have a bee in your bonnet. Good luck milking it for all it's worth!

Regards
Andy

I'm not remotely bothered - it's their action. They have to stand by it.

Edited by Chris Eyre on Monday 28th September 14:22

[zakelwe]

Chris Eyre said:

zakelwe said:

The number produced does matter.

I didn't realise that, what's the minimum allowed to be counted as valid?

Regards
Andy

[heebeegeetee]

flemke said:

Gedon said:

Cutting the crap here, it's merely a willy waving contest between 2 camps...

Beyond noting the irony of one's starting a post with "cutting the crap here..." and then feeling the need to share with us about a hundred lines of dizzying minutiae from some hill climb formulae, I must point out that, for one of the "2 camps", this discussion has nothing to do with "willy waving".

Most of the people who find this example of Radical's self-promotion to be a tedious sign of weakness couldn't care less what car holds "the record". They do care about intellectual honesty. That is what this discussion is about, and where Radical should have done better.

I'd assumed gedon was refering to the wily waving between the 2 camps of claimants, ie radical and whoever-the-other-lot-are-'cos-i've-forgotten.

I think it makes a good point to list what one authoritative body does actually define as what a road production car is though.

[s3fella]

"Business in Self Promotion shocker".

FFS get real. Any decent business promotes itself, if not they dont tend to sell anything.

Or is BMW really honestly and truly "the best driving machine?"


(Note, Mars Bars dont really help you work, rest and play. But the Radical DOES appear quite quick around the Ring).

[Gedon]

I was indeed talking about the willy waving between the 2 camps of people yabbling on here. Not the manufacturers.

I suppose Radical don't fulfil the German criteria and so it being a German track, something proper would have to win.

If you put them up Prescott around Brands Hatch, etc, we would see the best car win. Then the argument would come up that if we did it in Mauritania, they would win as they have no regs and so an F1 car would win.

When the IVA (pan european) comes in and assuming a radical can pass that, they will have to do a re-run and then win on the grounds of roadgoing cars.

Let's wait until then,eh?

[heebeegeetee]

Gedon said:

I was indeed talking about the willy waving between the 2 camps of people yabbling on here. Not the manufacturers.

I is corrected.

[flemke]

Gedon said:

If you put them up Prescott around Brands Hatch, etc, we would see the best car win.

No, we would see the fastest car win.

That's the point - a road car is not designed to be the fastest. Therefore to compare a car that was not designed to be the fastest with a car for which the overwhelmingly primary criterion was to be the fastest is meaningless.

[Chris Eyre]

heebeegeetee said:

I think it makes a good point to list what one authoritative body does actually define as what a road production car is though.

Chris Eyre said:

FIA production car definitions:

• Minimum 5,000 (clearly not much use for supercar producers, but this might get some sense back into this contest).
• Or 500 (Touring Car evolutions?)
• Or 200 (Group B)

To which it's worth adding:

• FIA GT Championship - GT1 or GT2 homologation requires a minimum 25 production road cars.

However, much as the FIA have their definitons, this event is clearly not governed by the FIA (its origins lie in 1995, when Sport Auto started the competition).

Surely have to look to a sense of literal meaning? Production in the accepted sense, by the man in the street.

A few guiding tests which I found from questions arising on Google:

• Should a production car be turn key, or high maintenance?
• Top Gear: can it get over a speed bump without disgracing itself?
• Presence / absence of a windscreen and provision of wet weather equipment (Ariel Atom?)
• Consumer-acceptable in-car NVH (many 'Ring record cars would fail this test, but is there a sliding scale)
• Extent of ground effect technology
• Practicalities of everyday use, basic shopping trips etc

On every single one of these tests, the Radical is at the extremities.

Anyone with better criteria for assessment?