RE: VW Golf R: 266bhp Hot Hatch Hits Frankfurt

[j123]

lordgibbness said:

I doubt it, I think they will just rely on newer versions of Haldex for their transverse-engined cars...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction

Lord bigshot,

DO the Audi's/VW (torque vectoring) apportion traction from rear right to left wheels?
Educated us...your lordship

[csmkx]

j123 said:

steve--m said:

The Torsen system will not fit into the Golf/A3/TT floor pan hence they get Haldex.

Without doubt though this system is far better than it used to be - I have been lucky enough to drive both new and old TT's and the mk2 just feels so much lighter and more spritely.

No, zero VW products use the same 4wd system as more advanced Saabs and Vauxhalls do, sorry to disappoint.

And positively no one, but no one, has ever commented on how the Haldex on the new TT or S3 is better in any way than anything from the likes of Subaru, Nissan or Mitsubishi. And indeed soon to be Saab and Vahxhall.

All sadly are nothing special, just a tarted Golf. Maybe one day VW will get serious and design a true sports car for the masses. Or not Artega seems to show we don't need VW going forward- eventually. Watch this space...

See, now that it is not "zero VW products use the same 4wd system as Saabs do", since golf R does use Haldex v4 exactly the same from 93 turbo-x. wrx+lancer's awd surely is excellent in all the ways, but look at their function...They are rally cars my friend, you need to also look at their fuel economies at the same time. Maybe comparing Haldex 4.0 to Torsen system is a wiser choice.

[Escort Si-130]

LMFAO

j123 said:

lordgibbness said:

I doubt it, I think they will just rely on newer versions of Haldex for their transverse-engined cars...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction

Lord bigshot,

DO the Audi's/VW (torque vectoring) apportion traction from rear right to left wheels?
Educated us...your lordship

[steve--m]

csmkx said:

j123 said:

steve--m said:

The Torsen system will not fit into the Golf/A3/TT floor pan hence they get Haldex.

Without doubt though this system is far better than it used to be - I have been lucky enough to drive both new and old TT's and the mk2 just feels so much lighter and more spritely.

No, zero VW products use the same 4wd system as more advanced Saabs and Vauxhalls do, sorry to disappoint.

And positively no one, but no one, has ever commented on how the Haldex on the new TT or S3 is better in any way than anything from the likes of Subaru, Nissan or Mitsubishi. And indeed soon to be Saab and Vahxhall.

All sadly are nothing special, just a tarted Golf. Maybe one day VW will get serious and design a true sports car for the masses. Or not Artega seems to show we don't need VW going forward- eventually. Watch this space...

See, now that it is not "zero VW products use the same 4wd system as Saabs do", since golf R does use Haldex v4 exactly the same from 93 turbo-x. wrx+lancer's awd surely is excellent in all the ways, but look at their function...They are rally cars my friend, you need to also look at their fuel economies at the same time. Maybe comparing Haldex 4.0 to Torsen system is a wiser choice.

Exactly. Who are you disappointing J123? Nobody said they use the same system as the Saabs and GM's merely that they use a version of the Haldex system.

I also stand by my comments around the TT as well. Its lighter? Yeah, most of that weight coming from the lighter.... New Haldex system!

[lordgibbness]

j123 said:

DO the Audi's/VW (torque vectoring) apportion traction from rear right to left wheels?

I think so, using the eLSD part of Haldex 4 setup.

[Ranger 6]

steve--m said:

The Torsen system....

Torsen is a type of diff, not a 4wd system (Torque Sensing). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen
& http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm

VW if they wished could easily fit a torsen diff into a fwd Golf.... (ultimately it's very similar to the Quaife and Peloquin aftermarket diffs)

Just becuase Audi used it as a centre diff does not make it exclusive or 'unfitable' to other cars

[I WISH]

Powerful petrol engines are great if you can stand the insurance premiums and the pocket punching mpg ...... but the Golf GT TDI 170 (or GTD in MK 6 form) is a cracking car.
I have the DSG version and its like a rocket ship ... especially in the mid range. It would never break any records 0 - 30 .... but the mid rev range torque is monumental (even mental!).
I reckon for certain parts of the speed range ... say 50 - 70 mph .... its quicker than my Elise.
Handles well too and the DSG auto box is amazingly quick. Specced up with sat nav., climate, leather etc its a very good car.
Oh ... and did I mention 40 - 50 mpg?

[j123]

lordgibbness said:

j123 said:

DO the Audi's/VW (torque vectoring) apportion traction from rear right to left wheels?

I think so, using the eLSD part of Haldex 4 setup.

No

[lordgibbness]

According to the technical specs for v4, up to 85 percent of torque can be transferred by the eLSD between to any single rear wheel.

[steve--m]

Ranger 6 said:

steve--m said:

The Torsen system....

Torsen is a type of diff, not a 4wd system (Torque Sensing). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen
& http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm

VW if they wished could easily fit a torsen diff into a fwd Golf.... (ultimately it's very similar to the Quaife and Peloquin aftermarket diffs)

Just becuase Audi used it as a centre diff does not make it exclusive or 'unfitable' to other cars

Yes I am aware what a Torsen system is thanks. The easiest way of making a laymans distinction between different 4wd cars in the Audi range is to divide into those that use Haldex and those that use Torsen based systems - though I guess that wasn't clear to some if you only quote three words from a post. The marketing term "quattro" is, after all, just that marketing.

Actually the Torsen system IS virtually "unfitable" to 4wd transverse engine mounted cars on A3/GOLF floor pan due to the engine layout and the fact you would have to make some serious cabin adjustments to fit a centre diff in there. Hence the reason they use Haldex which is, oh, what I said in the quoted post......

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:05

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:09

[300bhp/ton]

steve--m said:

Ranger 6 said:

steve--m said:

The Torsen system....

Torsen is a type of diff, not a 4wd system (Torque Sensing). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen
& http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm

VW if they wished could easily fit a torsen diff into a fwd Golf.... (ultimately it's very similar to the Quaife and Peloquin aftermarket diffs)

Just becuase Audi used it as a centre diff does not make it exclusive or 'unfitable' to other cars

Yes I am aware what a Torsen system is thanks. The easiest way of making a laymans distinction between different 4wd cars in the Audi range is to divide into those that use Haldex and those that use Torsen based systems - though I guess that wasn't clear to some if you only quote three words from a post. The marketing term "quattro" is, after all, just that marketing.

Actually the Torsen system IS virtually "unfitable" to 4wd transverse engine mounted cars on A3/GOLF floor pan due to the engine layout and the fact you would have to make some serious cabin adjustments to fit a centre diff in there. Hence the reason they use Haldex which is, oh, what I said in the quoted post......

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:05

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:09

Not sure I follow?

You could use a viscous coupler as the centre diff, as per Subaru, Ford (Cosworths) and most others. Evo too I think.

The Toyota GT-Four had a rear TORSEN but still a viscous centre diff.

[steve--m]

300bhp/ton said:

steve--m said:

Ranger 6 said:

steve--m said:

The Torsen system....

Torsen is a type of diff, not a 4wd system (Torque Sensing). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen
& http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm

VW if they wished could easily fit a torsen diff into a fwd Golf.... (ultimately it's very similar to the Quaife and Peloquin aftermarket diffs)

Just becuase Audi used it as a centre diff does not make it exclusive or 'unfitable' to other cars

Yes I am aware what a Torsen system is thanks. The easiest way of making a laymans distinction between different 4wd cars in the Audi range is to divide into those that use Haldex and those that use Torsen based systems - though I guess that wasn't clear to some if you only quote three words from a post. The marketing term "quattro" is, after all, just that marketing.

Actually the Torsen system IS virtually "unfitable" to 4wd transverse engine mounted cars on A3/GOLF floor pan due to the engine layout and the fact you would have to make some serious cabin adjustments to fit a centre diff in there. Hence the reason they use Haldex which is, oh, what I said in the quoted post......

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:05

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:09

Not sure I follow?

You could use a viscous coupler as the centre diff, as per Subaru, Ford (Cosworths) and most others. Evo too I think.

The Toyota GT-Four had a rear TORSEN but still a viscous centre diff.

Nothing much to follow mate. I am talking very specifically about not being a able to fit a big arse, torsen centre diff on the Golf/A3 due to size constraints.

Who said anything about scoobys, evos, toyotas? Not me.

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 12:30

[300bhp/ton]

steve--m said:

300bhp/ton said:

steve--m said:

Ranger 6 said:

steve--m said:

The Torsen system....

Torsen is a type of diff, not a 4wd system (Torque Sensing). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen
& http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm

VW if they wished could easily fit a torsen diff into a fwd Golf.... (ultimately it's very similar to the Quaife and Peloquin aftermarket diffs)

Just becuase Audi used it as a centre diff does not make it exclusive or 'unfitable' to other cars

Yes I am aware what a Torsen system is thanks. The easiest way of making a laymans distinction between different 4wd cars in the Audi range is to divide into those that use Haldex and those that use Torsen based systems - though I guess that wasn't clear to some if you only quote three words from a post. The marketing term "quattro" is, after all, just that marketing.

Actually the Torsen system IS virtually "unfitable" to 4wd transverse engine mounted cars on A3/GOLF floor pan due to the engine layout and the fact you would have to make some serious cabin adjustments to fit a centre diff in there. Hence the reason they use Haldex which is, oh, what I said in the quoted post......

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:05

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:09

Not sure I follow?

You could use a viscous coupler as the centre diff, as per Subaru, Ford (Cosworths) and most others. Evo too I think.

The Toyota GT-Four had a rear TORSEN but still a viscous centre diff.

Nothing much to follow mate. I am talking very specifically about not being a able to fit a big arse, torsen centre diff on the Golf/A3 due to size constraints.

Who said anything about scoobys, evos, toyotas? Not me.

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 12:30

Then why not fit a viscous unit, and I can't see a Torsen being any bigger.

[steve--m]

300bhp/ton said:

steve--m said:

300bhp/ton said:

steve--m said:

Ranger 6 said:

steve--m said:

The Torsen system....

Torsen is a type of diff, not a 4wd system (Torque Sensing). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen
& http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm

VW if they wished could easily fit a torsen diff into a fwd Golf.... (ultimately it's very similar to the Quaife and Peloquin aftermarket diffs)

Just becuase Audi used it as a centre diff does not make it exclusive or 'unfitable' to other cars

Yes I am aware what a Torsen system is thanks. The easiest way of making a laymans distinction between different 4wd cars in the Audi range is to divide into those that use Haldex and those that use Torsen based systems - though I guess that wasn't clear to some if you only quote three words from a post. The marketing term "quattro" is, after all, just that marketing.

Actually the Torsen system IS virtually "unfitable" to 4wd transverse engine mounted cars on A3/GOLF floor pan due to the engine layout and the fact you would have to make some serious cabin adjustments to fit a centre diff in there. Hence the reason they use Haldex which is, oh, what I said in the quoted post......

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:05

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:09

Not sure I follow?

You could use a viscous coupler as the centre diff, as per Subaru, Ford (Cosworths) and most others. Evo too I think.

The Toyota GT-Four had a rear TORSEN but still a viscous centre diff.

Nothing much to follow mate. I am talking very specifically about not being a able to fit a big arse, torsen centre diff on the Golf/A3 due to size constraints.

Who said anything about scoobys, evos, toyotas? Not me.

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 12:30

Then why not fit a viscous unit, and I can't see a Torsen being any bigger.

Spot the centre diff on the Haldex LSC picture below? You can't, because it doesn't have one. Your talk of viscous couplings or centre Torsens is pointless as there is nothing there! Ecu does the job instead. That's why it is used - VW/Audi have to make minimal changes to the structure of the cars which have it.

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 14:24

[Ranger 6]

I think the point is that VW (VAG) could've put a centre diff in, but chose to use the Haldex solution for selected models.

Your comment about changing the car though doesn't sound right as they had to add a propshaft and rear diff so the shell had to be altered anyway. To add a centre diff would've been perfectly possible, who knows whether it would've been a torsen or viscous one though, remember much of the size in a front or rear diff is the CWP, the diff itself is not that big

[300bhp/ton]

steve--m said:

300bhp/ton said:

steve--m said:

300bhp/ton said:

steve--m said:

Ranger 6 said:

steve--m said:

The Torsen system....

Torsen is a type of diff, not a 4wd system (Torque Sensing). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen
& http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm

VW if they wished could easily fit a torsen diff into a fwd Golf.... (ultimately it's very similar to the Quaife and Peloquin aftermarket diffs)

Just becuase Audi used it as a centre diff does not make it exclusive or 'unfitable' to other cars

Yes I am aware what a Torsen system is thanks. The easiest way of making a laymans distinction between different 4wd cars in the Audi range is to divide into those that use Haldex and those that use Torsen based systems - though I guess that wasn't clear to some if you only quote three words from a post. The marketing term "quattro" is, after all, just that marketing.

Actually the Torsen system IS virtually "unfitable" to 4wd transverse engine mounted cars on A3/GOLF floor pan due to the engine layout and the fact you would have to make some serious cabin adjustments to fit a centre diff in there. Hence the reason they use Haldex which is, oh, what I said in the quoted post......

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:05

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 10:09

Not sure I follow?

You could use a viscous coupler as the centre diff, as per Subaru, Ford (Cosworths) and most others. Evo too I think.

The Toyota GT-Four had a rear TORSEN but still a viscous centre diff.

Nothing much to follow mate. I am talking very specifically about not being a able to fit a big arse, torsen centre diff on the Golf/A3 due to size constraints.

Who said anything about scoobys, evos, toyotas? Not me.

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 12:30

Then why not fit a viscous unit, and I can't see a Torsen being any bigger.

Spot the centre diff on the Haldex LSC picture below? You can't, because it doesn't have one. Your talk of viscous couplings or centre Torsens is pointless as there is nothing there! Ecu does the job instead. That's why it is used - VW/Audi have to make minimal changes to the structure of the cars which have it.

Edited by steve--m on Friday 18th September 14:24

eh?

It was hypothetical. And meaning if other car makers manage better AWD systems then why not.

I can see the advantages of the Haldex, but I can't really see its uses in a proper performance car.

As for ECU's, guess they are cheaper than proper diffs and mechanical components. I suspect this is more likely the real reason.

[steve--m]

Agreed. It is a compromise of available space and economics on the VaG range.

Although the Haldex systems are getting better with every itteration there is no replacement for a proper mechanical diff.

It's why I dropped a Peloquin in mine.

[j123]

Torque vectoring Not used by VW/Audi Golf/TT chassis. Used by Saab and Vaxhall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_XWD
and because of it Audi and VW 4wd'ers still su4k while even broke Saabs 9/3's handles well/

Edited by j123 on Friday 18th September 18:00

[lordgibbness]

J123, that is the system that is now on the S3 (MY2009) and this new Golf R...

[j123]

"NOTE: The fourth generation Haldex AWD used in new Volvo automobiles is not capable of transferring power from left to right using an eLSD. Currently, the eLSD is still limited to SAAB.

NOTE: Actually OPEL (VAUXHALL) Insignia is using full version of Haldex including eLSD right-left power transfer.

NOTE: Audi S3 2009 Facelift model also uses Haldex Gen IV [9]"

Audi use it like Volvo do. Sorry better luck next time...biggy. j