RE: Nissan GT-R: Kazutoshi Mizuno Interview
Discussion
j123 said:
The principle of extra weight that he talks about seems mostly to me to be about grip in wet and snowy conditions. NOT the dry. Indeed in the Dry so much else would destroy the GT-R. But for the wet and grimy, I think this is rather true!
Evo recently found this out by testing the GT-R against the Evora at its launch in wet Scotland- they found the GT-R found far more grip and traction and could completely dominate the very capable Evora on those roads- fun well thats another story. This is also the principle that Audi use for their Quattro cars, much weight at the front w/ 4WD for more traction in the wet. Indeed there is probably no car around that is more stable and tractive than most quattro's in bad conditions. So it would seem that nissan set about to improve upon what audi have done, by optimizing everything else- eg transaxle, rigidity, sports car suspension less subframes and rubber than a quattro as well.
Great interview PH. The auto rags should have done this interview years ago, and should be embarrassed that user generated amateur questions were used to effect much deeper understanding about this car than anything they have been able to tell us about the GT-R. Thanks for this. J
It's the whole idea about it being a super car you can use every day. If it was as light as a feather yet still had the wide tyres for top spec dry grip, you'd not want to drive it in the winter. See TVR's in the snow for examples. Certainly something I'd never think about.Evo recently found this out by testing the GT-R against the Evora at its launch in wet Scotland- they found the GT-R found far more grip and traction and could completely dominate the very capable Evora on those roads- fun well thats another story. This is also the principle that Audi use for their Quattro cars, much weight at the front w/ 4WD for more traction in the wet. Indeed there is probably no car around that is more stable and tractive than most quattro's in bad conditions. So it would seem that nissan set about to improve upon what audi have done, by optimizing everything else- eg transaxle, rigidity, sports car suspension less subframes and rubber than a quattro as well.
Great interview PH. The auto rags should have done this interview years ago, and should be embarrassed that user generated amateur questions were used to effect much deeper understanding about this car than anything they have been able to tell us about the GT-R. Thanks for this. J
Good work guys. Roll on part 2.
Niffty951 said:
PZR said:
Niffty951 said:
A seemingly really interesting and genuinly nice chap but I understand now why Nissan don't use him for press releases! You could have gone into 1000 times more detail in half the time by being a little more efficient with wording! He is clearly a man of science not words.
I'm sure his words would have been adequate to explain had the interviewer ( and this audience ) been fluent in Japanese. Edited by Niffty951 on Friday 16th October 15:26
I think Mizuno san did very well with his English all things considered, but I'm sure he would be in a better position to answer these questions had he the luxury of being able to do it in his native tongue. After all, he's an engineer not a press conference / presentation performer. And that's why being able to have a little Q&A session with him is so interesting.
I'm looking forward to Part 2.
PZR said:
I'm looking forward to Part 2.
Hear hear. It's always interesting to listen to an expert talking about their work - especially if it's car-related!How about an interview with Walter Rohrl next Garlick? I think he's of a reasonable height, so you could prob. get him and Chris-R in the same frame for an interview without the need for a box or Tom Cruise-style shoes!
Best,
Animal
Animal said:
How about an interview with Walter Rohrl next Garlick? I think he's of a reasonable height, so you could prob. get him and Chris-R in the same frame for an interview without the need for a box or Tom Cruise-style shoes!
Funny you should mention that as Chris was with Walter this afternoon (seriously) and he has been telling me about it over the e mail. It wasn't for the purpose of a full interview however (he was at the 911 Turbo launch), but that isn't a bad idea and we'll certainly investigate the possibilities.Great idea.....although I would like Chris to meet someone that makes him look short for a change
Animal said:
PZR said:
I'm looking forward to Part 2.
Hear hear. It's always interesting to listen to an expert talking about their work - especially if it's car-related!How about an interview with Walter Rohrl next Garlick? I think he's of a reasonable height, so you could prob. get him and Chris-R in the same frame for an interview without the need for a box or Tom Cruise-style shoes!
Best,
Animal
He is indeed a similar height, and we discussed how much nicer it is for lanky people to sit in new 911s than the old shape ones. Walter says the old ones were hard for him to drive as his knees got in the way of the steering wheel, although it didn't seem to hold him back much at the time!
Chris-R said:
Animal said:
PZR said:
I'm looking forward to Part 2.
Hear hear. It's always interesting to listen to an expert talking about their work - especially if it's car-related!How about an interview with Walter Rohrl next Garlick? I think he's of a reasonable height, so you could prob. get him and Chris-R in the same frame for an interview without the need for a box or Tom Cruise-style shoes!
Best,
Animal
He is indeed a similar height, and we discussed how much nicer it is for lanky people to sit in new 911s than the old shape ones. Walter says the old ones were hard for him to drive as his knees got in the way of the steering wheel, although it didn't seem to hold him back much at the time!
That first vid is a bit misleading. What he doesn't say is that the F1 car only has 600 kg to change the direction of momentum of but the force downwards of 600 + 1000 (downforce) generating the grip. The GTR has to change the momentum of 1700 kg when cornering and has 1700kg generating grip.
Granted when talking about a road car you wouldn't design it like this as you couldn't make meaningful downforce at most legal speeds so thats then what he is going on to say but extra weight isn't really a good thing in the way that he seems to be suggesting from this video.
He must clearly know this so probably down to the question/speaking english/ not wanting to say the car is a bit heavy........
Great interview though and very interesting.
Granted when talking about a road car you wouldn't design it like this as you couldn't make meaningful downforce at most legal speeds so thats then what he is going on to say but extra weight isn't really a good thing in the way that he seems to be suggesting from this video.
He must clearly know this so probably down to the question/speaking english/ not wanting to say the car is a bit heavy........
Great interview though and very interesting.
No 1 said:
I'm still a bit puzzled. Surely, the heavier the car, the more grip you need in order change it's momentum every time you come to a corner. And the heavier a car is, the greater inertia you have to overcome. Now I'm not for one second trying to suggest that I could design a car better than the GTR, or that I have anything like the level of understanding of grip that Kazutoshi San has, but if weight were a good thing, wouldn't we all be driving around with bags of sand in our boot to give us more grip to go around the corners better?
For me, adding lightness is still the way to go.
Correct. Obviously the guy knows what he's talking about, but that's just marketing BS he's spouting there.For me, adding lightness is still the way to go.
Mass and downforce-combined-weight are not the same two things. Ideally you'd have a car that weighs 1kg that generates 2000kg of downforce, but this is impossible. You want the lowest mass to accelerate around a corner, while having as much downforce as possible to provide the vertical component of the force tyres need to work.
If he was correct, you'd consistently find that cars like the Veyron, the Bentley Conti GT and the RR phantom would be able to out-corner Lotuses and Caterhams, and we all know that's just b
ks.Of course some of what he says rings true (a heavier car, within reason, is more docile to control on low-mu surfaces), but I very much doubt they started out with a mass figure and worked backwards
Edited by Esprit on Saturday 17th October 01:52
Enjoyed the vids as its nice to see what goes on in a designers head, but how does a guy go from designing the Nissan Primera to GT racing? Suppose he must have had the same training as the guy who designed the Skoda Fabia then Bentley Continental GT.
Im not saying he isn't talented as he clearly is, just wonder how he made the transition.
I do think the GTR is a lardy car but the explanation for this seems abit bizarre, they wanted approx 400kg on each wheel to help with the mechanical grip, but this goes out the window when accelerating and cornering as the weight shifts around unless the fancy computers make sure the weight loading remains constant on all four wheels. I think the guy knows it could have been lighter and no doubt nissan will release limited edition versions with 100kg removed.
What i would like to know is what causes all the weight? certainly not the engine, would expect that to way less than 200kg, maybe the drivetrain is made out of granite.
The V6 turbo was chosen over V8 or V10 because of package requirements, don't believe this completely, i would rather expect it to be because of costs, aftermarket tuning potential and cheaper factory power upgrades along its lifespan.
Im not saying he isn't talented as he clearly is, just wonder how he made the transition.
I do think the GTR is a lardy car but the explanation for this seems abit bizarre, they wanted approx 400kg on each wheel to help with the mechanical grip, but this goes out the window when accelerating and cornering as the weight shifts around unless the fancy computers make sure the weight loading remains constant on all four wheels. I think the guy knows it could have been lighter and no doubt nissan will release limited edition versions with 100kg removed.
What i would like to know is what causes all the weight? certainly not the engine, would expect that to way less than 200kg, maybe the drivetrain is made out of granite.
The V6 turbo was chosen over V8 or V10 because of package requirements, don't believe this completely, i would rather expect it to be because of costs, aftermarket tuning potential and cheaper factory power upgrades along its lifespan.
dnatuner said:
The V6 turbo was chosen over V8 or V10 because of package requirements, don't believe this completely, i would rather expect it to be because of costs, aftermarket tuning potential and cheaper factory power upgrades along its lifespan.
I dunno a V8 would arguably have been better, especially as it approaches a capacity of 4.0L or more as it no doubt will with future development. Nissan could just have easily (cost and development wise) taken it's excellent V8 engine, reduced capacity a little to 4.0L and added twin turbos for a nice round 500bhp figure, weight distribution wouldn't really be that much worse than a V6, not to mention better sound and just generally for marketing in the premium segment they are aiming at, having a V8 goes down a lot better, 'V6' has too much of a mid market connotation. I would also think there is probably some historical pressure since the Skyline GT-R always had a six cylinder engine so they probably thought it might be better to keep it as a six cylinder engine and also their main benchmark is Porsche who also happen to use a twin turbo 3.8L six cylinder engine (which is also largely due to tradition) so they probably wanted to keep it as close to the Porsche as possible so they could measure their performance against it.
I very much enjoyed the video's, its very interesting to listen to an expert talk about their subject. I don't know if people criticising the GTR are correct or not, but I think im going to trust Kazutoshi Mizuno knows what he is doing as the performance of the GTR Vs its rivals at the Ring speak volumes.
j123 said:
The principle of extra weight that he talks about seems mostly to me to be about grip in wet and snowy conditions. NOT the dry. Indeed in the Dry so much else would destroy the GT-R. But for the wet and grimy, I think this is rather true!
Evo recently found this out by testing the GT-R against the Evora at its launch in wet Scotland- they found the GT-R found far more grip and traction and could completely dominate the very capable Evora on those roads- fun well thats another story. This is also the principle that Audi use for their Quattro cars, much weight at the front w/ 4WD for more traction in the wet. Indeed there is probably no car around that is more stable and tractive than most quattro's in bad conditions. So it would seem that nissan set about to improve upon what audi have done, by optimizing everything else- eg transaxle, rigidity, sports car suspension less subframes and rubber than a quattro as well.
Great interview PH. The auto rags should have done this interview years ago, and should be embarrassed that user generated amateur questions were used to effect much deeper understanding about this car than anything they have been able to tell us about the GT-R. Thanks for this. J
I agree, all credit to PH and it is shameful that none of the main performance car mags haven't managed to do similar considering the column yards generated by the GT-R over the last couple of years.Evo recently found this out by testing the GT-R against the Evora at its launch in wet Scotland- they found the GT-R found far more grip and traction and could completely dominate the very capable Evora on those roads- fun well thats another story. This is also the principle that Audi use for their Quattro cars, much weight at the front w/ 4WD for more traction in the wet. Indeed there is probably no car around that is more stable and tractive than most quattro's in bad conditions. So it would seem that nissan set about to improve upon what audi have done, by optimizing everything else- eg transaxle, rigidity, sports car suspension less subframes and rubber than a quattro as well.
Great interview PH. The auto rags should have done this interview years ago, and should be embarrassed that user generated amateur questions were used to effect much deeper understanding about this car than anything they have been able to tell us about the GT-R. Thanks for this. J
However, re. "Indeed in the Dry so much else would destroy the GT-R", would you care to name some of them? Nothing remotely practical and below £100k springs to mind...
Skepticism is mandatory, this guy is challenging a conventional truth about weight and performance. I find the explanation strangely credible however, and while our theoretical objections may be grounded in sound physics, we must recognize one thing: this GTR really works well. Grip is the key to achieve such performance, weight may well have something to do with it. Sometimes, one's unshakable faith must be revisited.
If modern chassis and suspension design allows for a heavy car to handle, brake, and accelerate as well as a lighter one, then the only problem I see is increased fuel consumption moving all this weight around.
It's not often that a top engineer is made accessible to journalists for this kind of questioning. Public relations people with limited technical knowledge are usually dispatched for this kind of work. It's good to see the mind behind a machine that's being criticized for lacking soul.
If modern chassis and suspension design allows for a heavy car to handle, brake, and accelerate as well as a lighter one, then the only problem I see is increased fuel consumption moving all this weight around.
It's not often that a top engineer is made accessible to journalists for this kind of questioning. Public relations people with limited technical knowledge are usually dispatched for this kind of work. It's good to see the mind behind a machine that's being criticized for lacking soul.
Chris-R said:
David87 said:
Awesome interview, PH! Very interesting to see why some of the things on the GT-R are the way they are and good effort on the English, Mr Mizuno! Is Chris-R massive or is Mizuno really small?
Also, is it just me that gets a blank bit at the end of video five? Don't want to be missing any of this stuff!
Don't think there's anything missing, but we'll review the tape again to make sure.Also, is it just me that gets a blank bit at the end of video five? Don't want to be missing any of this stuff!
Edited by David87 on Friday 16th October 18:07
I'm nearly 6'5", and although we didn't hold a tape measure against Mizuno san, I can confirm that he's definitely shorter than me!
KB_S1 said:
nismohks said:
Could someone explain the last video to me about human reaction time and why the HICAS was not fitted ?
I didnt quite understand that one.
Not sure myself but, I think he is suggesting that you must introduce a delay into such a system to allow for human response time.I didnt quite understand that one.
Perhaps that delay affects all other systems?
Worth noting that the racing R34 GT-Rs and many of the top tuner versions had HiCas disabled.
(Guess working with Chinese Americans daily helps in understanding the Eastern way of talking...)
Edited by PascalBuyens on Saturday 17th October 21:36
Great Interview PH - Let us hear the man, not Jurno waffle!
Makes the car more interesting to me to hear the concepts that defined it.
But do a lot of posts miss the point about what Nissan intended for the GTR?
A new concept of Supercar. To quote a bit of their blurb "Anyone, anywhere can drive".
Is the GTR the first really true everyday, every condition Supercar?
Or have they reduced the Supercar to something "less" by making more accessible and easier to control?
I don't think I can answer that until I get to drive one, so it up to you to decide.
Makes the car more interesting to me to hear the concepts that defined it.
But do a lot of posts miss the point about what Nissan intended for the GTR?
A new concept of Supercar. To quote a bit of their blurb "Anyone, anywhere can drive".
Is the GTR the first really true everyday, every condition Supercar?
Or have they reduced the Supercar to something "less" by making more accessible and easier to control?
I don't think I can answer that until I get to drive one, so it up to you to decide.
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