RE: SOTW: Rover 800 Vitesse Coupe
Discussion
I'm with heightswitch on this one, for a car brand supposedly built by Trotskyists and suffering from chronic HGF, there ain't half a lot more 1990s Rovers on the road compared to the equivalent Escort/Astra and various other models.
Drove a 218 SD turbo myself for about 6 months, and the old man ran a 75 from new for around a year, both perfectly acceptable cars for the time - in fact, I'd go so far as saying that the 75 is one of the best used bargains out there if you find a good 'un - the ill-informed who shun it do so to the advantage of the rest of us who know a splendid VFM barge when we see one.
As for the downfall of Rover - well, BMW may take a portion of blame, but at the end of the day, I always understood that it was a tale of rather epic Thatcher-style boardroom greed on behalf of the Phoenix Four which finally killed it off:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/sep/11/mg-...
I also find it odd that a forum of supposed car enthusiasts almost revel in the fact that we now only seem to make cars for other countries in the UK...
Drove a 218 SD turbo myself for about 6 months, and the old man ran a 75 from new for around a year, both perfectly acceptable cars for the time - in fact, I'd go so far as saying that the 75 is one of the best used bargains out there if you find a good 'un - the ill-informed who shun it do so to the advantage of the rest of us who know a splendid VFM barge when we see one.
As for the downfall of Rover - well, BMW may take a portion of blame, but at the end of the day, I always understood that it was a tale of rather epic Thatcher-style boardroom greed on behalf of the Phoenix Four which finally killed it off:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/sep/11/mg-...
I also find it odd that a forum of supposed car enthusiasts almost revel in the fact that we now only seem to make cars for other countries in the UK...
skid said:
tinman0 said:
Now which Rover product benefitted from BMW technology? I can't think of anything.
Just remembered - the 75 had the BMW Z link rear axle set up (despite being front wheel drive) and at the 75 launch after scouring the car intensley we found a BMW badge on a component........... it was the boot interior lock mechanism shroud! Whoppee do! Edited by skid on Monday 26th October 00:11
grahamw48 said:
citman said:
I also find it odd that a forum of supposed car enthusiasts almost revel in the fact that we now only seem to make cars for other countries in the UK...
Maybe some of the millions on the dole are considering this.
People can complain about Delorean, setting up the factory and "stealing" tax payers money. Thats fine when you live here on the Mainland but it did contribute to pride,confidence and most of all Jobs for those with no prospects. Sure the Build quiality wasn't fantastic, I ran one for 2 years and all I had to do was change the clutch (which was original) for a 28y/o supposidly "crap" car I thought this was pretty good.
We've sold out to other countrys and play things by the rule book a little too serious, why not bring Morris back, Humber or the likes?
BMW took the pi55 with Rover when they bought.
Double headlights, Kidney grills on (our) cars then take the brands they desired and up sticks.(they laughed all the way to Munich)
Payback time, eh?
Its sad to see our motor industry like this it makes me wanna cry but I feel confident it will happen again; soon I hope!??
Its difficult when we have such a car hating Government, and all parties are the same!
The Milfman said:
drgoatboy said:
A Neighbour of mine had an 800 and told a tale of going down the A1 at night at speed and ALL the electrics going off.
Must have been a rather concerning moment...
This happened to me on the A3 (stretch without lighting) once in my Clio & yes it was rather concerning! Must have been a rather concerning moment...
Back on topic - seems like a cool shed, lots of leather and comfort.
Edited by The Milfman on Friday 23 October 12:46
Turns out what happened was the illuminated gear stick cover had worked itself loose and the bulb cables touched, short-circuiting all the electrics
I was shocked as hell. Switched the car off, turned it back on and everything had reset. Knob firmly reattached, there were no more problems.
Belfast Boy said:
grahamw48 said:
citman said:
I also find it odd that a forum of supposed car enthusiasts almost revel in the fact that we now only seem to make cars for other countries in the UK...
Maybe some of the millions on the dole are considering this.
BMW took the pi55 with Rover when they bought.
Double headlights, Kidney grills on (our) cars then take the brands they desired and up sticks.(they laughed all the way to Munich)
The Rover debacle nearly sank BMW. When selling on they were forced to sell Land Rover to sweeten the deal (and with it the benefit of the incredible (then) new Range Rover model which they had spent years developing and was launched under Ford) - and it was still a bad deal.
In fact so dangerous was the situation for BMW that the was a massive, collective sigh of relief the day Rover left the BMW portfolio - there was real belief that if Ford did not take the bait, BMW would be faced with bankruptcy.
The Quand family threw a fit and as soon as the dark clouds of imminent doom had drawn back somewhat, they fired the CEO Bernd Pischetsreider.
grahamw48 said:
citman said:
I also find it odd that a forum of supposed car enthusiasts almost revel in the fact that we now only seem to make cars for other countries in the UK...
Maybe some of the millions on the dole are considering this.
magic_marker said:
The Rover debacle nearly sank BMW. When selling on they were forced to sell Land Rover to sweeten the deal (and with it the benefit of the incredible (then) new Range Rover model which they had spent years developing and was launched under Ford) - and it was still a bad deal.
I can't really see where they lost money - bought Rover Group for £800m + sold Land Rover for £1.8-billion.I wouldn't call that a sweetener i'd call that a good profit (even if they had to pretend to be sorting out Rovers new models for a couple of years). Development costs for the Mini were kept with BMW, now a major asset. 4wd technology - some of it would have been useful for the BMW X- range. Even if they broke even on pure financials they gained Mini, took out a medium-sized competitor and stalled Honda for a couple of years.
andymadmak said:
And Motorrad, please, the BMW role in the demise of (what was to become) MGR is well documented. Lets just say they were happy to let MGRs history do the killing in the minds of the people.
Compare and contrast Skodas treatment at the hands of VAG..............
There are some simple souls on here and the crazily deluded rover forums who cannot accept that fact and put the blame for EVERYTHING anywhere other than where it truly lies.
magic_marker said:
grahamw48 said:
citman said:
I also find it odd that a forum of supposed car enthusiasts almost revel in the fact that we now only seem to make cars for other countries in the UK...
Maybe some of the millions on the dole are considering this.
In light of this, I find the glee some folk take from the demise of Rover to be quite baffling.
THESE ARE THE FACTS FOR THE ANTI-BMW BRIGADE
The Phoenix four’s initial dowry from BMW consisted of
(a) 60,000 cars, which realised £385MILLION
(b) a £427 MILLION INTREST FREE loan repayable in 2049, and
(c) £112 MILLION cash
That's nearly 1 Billion pounds worth minimum of BMW goodwill- and that's not including the 49 yrs worth of free intrest.
Rather generous i would say?
The Phoenix four’s initial dowry from BMW consisted of
(a) 60,000 cars, which realised £385MILLION
(b) a £427 MILLION INTREST FREE loan repayable in 2049, and
(c) £112 MILLION cash
That's nearly 1 Billion pounds worth minimum of BMW goodwill- and that's not including the 49 yrs worth of free intrest.
Rather generous i would say?
tali1 said:
THESE ARE THE FACTS FOR THE ANTI-BMW BRIGADE
That's nearly 1 Billion pounds worth minimum of BMW goodwill- and that's not including the 49 yrs worth of free intrest.
Rather generous i would say?
And if you add that to the figures above (+£1bn) it means they netted out - but still kept MINI and the new engine plants, whilst off-loading all the liabilities (redundancies & pensions).That's nearly 1 Billion pounds worth minimum of BMW goodwill- and that's not including the 49 yrs worth of free intrest.
Rather generous i would say?
Now i'm no production engineer but to develop a small car and engines must cost a fair whack.
As with most things, the truth may lie somewhere between both extremes.
fido said:
magic_marker said:
The Rover debacle nearly sank BMW. When selling on they were forced to sell Land Rover to sweeten the deal (and with it the benefit of the incredible (then) new Range Rover model which they had spent years developing and was launched under Ford) - and it was still a bad deal.
I can't really see where they lost money - bought Rover Group for £800m + sold Land Rover for £1.8-billion.I wouldn't call that a sweetener i'd call that a good profit (even if they had to pretend to be sorting out Rovers new models for a couple of years). Development costs for the Mini were kept with BMW, now a major asset. 4wd technology - some of it would have been useful for the BMW X- range. Even if they broke even on pure financials they gained Mini, took out a medium-sized competitor and stalled Honda for a couple of years.
I have a friend in Munich very high up in the BMW hierarchy who told me that at the moment the actual deal was announced there was a moment of complete silence in the building, followed by euphoria once the news of the sale and teh transfer of Land Rover to Ford was complete. They honestly thought the company might have ask for emergency bailout from the German government (and the Germans DON'T do 'no strings attached' packages) / sell the whole company.
fido said:
magic_marker said:
The Rover debacle nearly sank BMW. When selling on they were forced to sell Land Rover to sweeten the deal (and with it the benefit of the incredible (then) new Range Rover model which they had spent years developing and was launched under Ford) - and it was still a bad deal.
I can't really see where they lost money - bought Rover Group for £800m + sold Land Rover for £1.8-billion.I wouldn't call that a sweetener i'd call that a good profit (even if they had to pretend to be sorting out Rovers new models for a couple of years). Development costs for the Mini were kept with BMW, now a major asset. 4wd technology - some of it would have been useful for the BMW X- range. Even if they broke even on pure financials they gained Mini, took out a medium-sized competitor and stalled Honda for a couple of years.
I have a friend in Munich very high up in the BMW hierarchy who told me that at the moment the actual deal was announced there was a moment of complete silence in the building, followed by euphoria once the news of the sale and teh transfer of Land Rover to Ford was complete. They honestly thought the company might have ask for emergency bailout from the German government (and the Germans DON'T do 'no strings attached' packages) / sell the whole company.
magic_marker said:
Belfast Boy said:
grahamw48 said:
citman said:
I also find it odd that a forum of supposed car enthusiasts almost revel in the fact that we now only seem to make cars for other countries in the UK...
Maybe some of the millions on the dole are considering this.
BMW took the pi55 with Rover when they bought.
Double headlights, Kidney grills on (our) cars then take the brands they desired and up sticks.(they laughed all the way to Munich)
The Rover debacle nearly sank BMW. When selling on they were forced to sell Land Rover to sweeten the deal (and with it the benefit of the incredible (then) new Range Rover model which they had spent years developing and was launched under Ford) - and it was still a bad deal.
In fact so dangerous was the situation for BMW that the was a massive, collective sigh of relief the day Rover left the BMW portfolio - there was real belief that if Ford did not take the bait, BMW would be faced with bankruptcy.
The Quand family threw a fit and as soon as the dark clouds of imminent doom had drawn back somewhat, they fired the CEO Bernd Pischetsreider.
tali1 said:
THESE ARE THE FACTS FOR THE ANTI-BMW BRIGADE
The Phoenix four’s initial dowry from BMW consisted of
(a) 60,000 cars, which realised £385MILLION
(b) a £427 MILLION INTREST FREE loan repayable in 2049, and
(c) £112 MILLION cash
That's nearly 1 Billion pounds worth minimum of BMW goodwill- and that's not including the 49 yrs worth of free intrest.
Rather generous i would say?
With respect I think you're wrong to see an "anti-BMW" brigade; I think it's more a question of answering people's curiosity. PS yr above stats sound about right. The Phoenix four’s initial dowry from BMW consisted of
(a) 60,000 cars, which realised £385MILLION
(b) a £427 MILLION INTREST FREE loan repayable in 2049, and
(c) £112 MILLION cash
That's nearly 1 Billion pounds worth minimum of BMW goodwill- and that's not including the 49 yrs worth of free intrest.
Rather generous i would say?
magic_marker said:
fido said:
magic_marker said:
The Rover debacle nearly sank BMW. When selling on they were forced to sell Land Rover to sweeten the deal (and with it the benefit of the incredible (then) new Range Rover model which they had spent years developing and was launched under Ford) - and it was still a bad deal.
I can't really see where they lost money - bought Rover Group for £800m + sold Land Rover for £1.8-billion.I wouldn't call that a sweetener i'd call that a good profit (even if they had to pretend to be sorting out Rovers new models for a couple of years). Development costs for the Mini were kept with BMW, now a major asset. 4wd technology - some of it would have been useful for the BMW X- range. Even if they broke even on pure financials they gained Mini, took out a medium-sized competitor and stalled Honda for a couple of years.
I have a friend in Munich very high up in the BMW hierarchy who told me that at the moment the actual deal was announced there was a moment of complete silence in the building, followed by euphoria once the news of the sale and teh transfer of Land Rover to Ford was complete. They honestly thought the company might have ask for emergency bailout from the German government (and the Germans DON'T do 'no strings attached' packages) / sell the whole company.
No point in kicking over this corpse, but lets just say that BMW was never in any danger, and Rovers demise was very much planned before BMW acquired it....
As for the Phoenix 4, ..... well their plan was simple. Dress the company up to look as sexy as possible so that they could court a big fish (volume wise) as a partner for the future - Hence the overtures to Nanjing, SAIC and several others. The racing and stuff was there to give the brand some kudos. The 40 million they pocketed, whilst considerable, is but a drop in the ocean and would not have saved MGR. Interestingly, documents show that SAIC would have done the deal that would have saved MGR and left it as a technology providing partner in a new entity that would have had huge economies of scale (the chinese market) available to it,if the Govt had underwritten the pension fund deficit ( a deficit that they themselves had helped to create) The Government (in the form of La Hewitt) waited till Towers was on the plane from China (and as such incomunicado) and called a press conference at 9.30PM to close what was in effect at that time a PRIVATE company..
Towers only found out after his plane landed.
Now, if you want to know why the Govt did this you'll have to dig a little deeper... clue: aero engines and subsidies...
Onwards and upwards. Still think its a great shed.
Andy
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