RE: BMW M Division Wants A 1-series M
Discussion
Herman Toothrot said:
L100NYY said:
Herman Toothrot said:
The 1 series 2 door coupe (not the bread van) looks the best BMW for several years in my mind. There was a fully kitted 135i on the BMW stand at the Silverstone GP and I'd have not for a moment hesitated to have chosen it over an M3.
A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
I wouldn't say 1385kg is particularly lardy but something even lighter perhaps with a revvy 4cyl lump would be good fun.A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
DC2 1160kg
Ok rwd and 2 extra cylinders + turbos will add weight but this will be a car that costs significantly more than the new price of a DC2 so using more alloy components, carbon panels more upto date technology etc it shouldn't be an unrealistic aim. Mazda got the mk3 MX5 in at 1100kg.
I recently looked at buying one but it's not set up like I thought it would be. The drive by wire throttle had a nasty lag like a standard BMW saloon (even my girlfriend noticed it from the passenger seat on the test drive; considering she can't drive that's quite telling!). My local dealer convinced me (and I do mean convinced after my disapointment in the 135i!) to try a Z4C, which turned out to have a much smaller delay, and I liked it so much that I ended up buying it. This is why I'd welcome an M 1 series; hopefully BMW would take it seriously and give it a proper throttle response. Mind you, over 1500kg (if my figures are right?) is still pretty lardy for the smallest car that BMW make. It would take a very special car indeed for me to consider a performance car purchase weighing over 1.5 tonnes.
LukeBird said:
Can't see that ever happening to be honest...
What price point would it occupy? With the standard 135i about, what £30k... you would have to say an 'M' car would be £40-45k?
Surely doesn't make sense at that sort of money?
The two cars really aren't that different in weight or size; they occupy a similar footprint (it surprised me, but look at the two parked side by side and you'll see what I mean. The M3 is 400bhp is it not? I'd say if the 1 series M had at least 350bhp it would make sense.What price point would it occupy? With the standard 135i about, what £30k... you would have to say an 'M' car would be £40-45k?
Surely doesn't make sense at that sort of money?
LukeBird said:
Unless a massive amount of weight was cut from the car, surely 50bhp is never going to be worth the extra outlay?
I guess you'd be paying for the different chassis setup, LSD, weight saving (albeit small) etc. From memory the M3 is 400bhp, ~1700kg and £50k; so £40k, 350bhp and 1450kg (a small weight saving) would make sense to me for the 1 series M. I've not heard anyone complaining that the M3 costs £10k more than a 335i coupé, so should it be different for a 1 series M?RobM77 said:
LukeBird said:
Unless a massive amount of weight was cut from the car, surely 50bhp is never going to be worth the extra outlay?
I guess you'd be paying for the different chassis setup, LSD, weight saving (albeit small) etc. From memory the M3 is 400bhp, ~1700kg and £50k; so £40k, 350bhp and 1450kg (a small weight saving) would make sense to me for the 1 series M. I've not heard anyone complaining that the M3 costs £10k more than a 335i coupé, so should it be different for a 1 series M?A cheaper CLK Black would be my choice though!
RobM77 said:
Herman Toothrot said:
L100NYY said:
Herman Toothrot said:
The 1 series 2 door coupe (not the bread van) looks the best BMW for several years in my mind. There was a fully kitted 135i on the BMW stand at the Silverstone GP and I'd have not for a moment hesitated to have chosen it over an M3.
A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
I wouldn't say 1385kg is particularly lardy but something even lighter perhaps with a revvy 4cyl lump would be good fun.A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
DC2 1160kg
Ok rwd and 2 extra cylinders + turbos will add weight but this will be a car that costs significantly more than the new price of a DC2 so using more alloy components, carbon panels more upto date technology etc it shouldn't be an unrealistic aim. Mazda got the mk3 MX5 in at 1100kg.
I recently looked at buying one but it's not set up like I thought it would be. The drive by wire throttle had a nasty lag like a standard BMW saloon (even my girlfriend noticed it from the passenger seat on the test drive; considering she can't drive that's quite telling!). My local dealer convinced me (and I do mean convinced after my disapointment in the 135i!) to try a Z4C, which turned out to have a much smaller delay, and I liked it so much that I ended up buying it. This is why I'd welcome an M 1 series; hopefully BMW would take it seriously and give it a proper throttle response. Mind you, over 1500kg (if my figures are right?) is still pretty lardy for the smallest car that BMW make. It would take a very special car indeed for me to consider a performance car purchase weighing over 1.5 tonnes.
Rob,the 1385kg is the E46 CSL chum.
RobM77 said:
Herman Toothrot said:
L100NYY said:
Herman Toothrot said:
The 1 series 2 door coupe (not the bread van) looks the best BMW for several years in my mind. There was a fully kitted 135i on the BMW stand at the Silverstone GP and I'd have not for a moment hesitated to have chosen it over an M3.
A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
I wouldn't say 1385kg is particularly lardy but something even lighter perhaps with a revvy 4cyl lump would be good fun.A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
DC2 1160kg
Ok rwd and 2 extra cylinders + turbos will add weight but this will be a car that costs significantly more than the new price of a DC2 so using more alloy components, carbon panels more upto date technology etc it shouldn't be an unrealistic aim. Mazda got the mk3 MX5 in at 1100kg.
Mind you, over 1500kg (if my figures are right?) is still pretty lardy for the smallest car that BMW make. It would take a very special car indeed for me to consider a performance car purchase weighing over 1.5 tonnes.
MX-5 has negligible practicality and few toys, so the fact that it weighs 1,100kg says more about modern construction methods and crash-regs than anything great about the car.
That said, I agree with all of the above - except I'd settle for a balanced & ported, higher-revving, non-DBW version of the 3.0 n/asp I-6* - sub-300bhp would be plenty if the kerb-weight dropped below that of the old CSL (1,300kg target would give it ~220-230bhp/tonne, which would be equivalent to the E46 M3). Glassfibre, plastic or c/fibre roof, bonnet, wings, bootlid, etc., and lose some soundproofing. Toys can all be made optional, as can electric seats, sat-nav, air-con, high-spec stereo, sunroof etc. etc. - just like Porsche do with the GT3...
* Hell, make it a de-tuned M54 lump - 40bhp sacrifice to get the emissions down below a couple of key numbers (225g/km for one) won't matter if it's a 'lightweight' car...
LukeBird said:
RobM77 said:
LukeBird said:
Unless a massive amount of weight was cut from the car, surely 50bhp is never going to be worth the extra outlay?
I guess you'd be paying for the different chassis setup, LSD, weight saving (albeit small) etc. From memory the M3 is 400bhp, ~1700kg and £50k; so £40k, 350bhp and 1450kg (a small weight saving) would make sense to me for the 1 series M. I've not heard anyone complaining that the M3 costs £10k more than a 335i coupé, so should it be different for a 1 series M?A cheaper CLK Black would be my choice though!
I've driven an SLK55 AMG on track a number of times and loved it. In fact so much so I considered buying an SLK350. Yes, the suspension wasn't as focused (in fact it road like a speedboat down a bumpy road!), but it was that auto box that got me on the road; it just didn't suit a performance car. On track, yes it's ok, but on the road it just didn't work. BMW have got it sewn up with that gearbox alone. Good job BMW offer a manual box actually, because their auto is the worst I've ever experienced. It was so bad that when I last drove one it had me in tears of laughter so badly I had to stop the car till I'd recovered!L100NYY said:
RobM77 said:
Herman Toothrot said:
L100NYY said:
Herman Toothrot said:
The 1 series 2 door coupe (not the bread van) looks the best BMW for several years in my mind. There was a fully kitted 135i on the BMW stand at the Silverstone GP and I'd have not for a moment hesitated to have chosen it over an M3.
A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
I wouldn't say 1385kg is particularly lardy but something even lighter perhaps with a revvy 4cyl lump would be good fun.A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
DC2 1160kg
Ok rwd and 2 extra cylinders + turbos will add weight but this will be a car that costs significantly more than the new price of a DC2 so using more alloy components, carbon panels more upto date technology etc it shouldn't be an unrealistic aim. Mazda got the mk3 MX5 in at 1100kg.
I recently looked at buying one but it's not set up like I thought it would be. The drive by wire throttle had a nasty lag like a standard BMW saloon (even my girlfriend noticed it from the passenger seat on the test drive; considering she can't drive that's quite telling!). My local dealer convinced me (and I do mean convinced after my disapointment in the 135i!) to try a Z4C, which turned out to have a much smaller delay, and I liked it so much that I ended up buying it. This is why I'd welcome an M 1 series; hopefully BMW would take it seriously and give it a proper throttle response. Mind you, over 1500kg (if my figures are right?) is still pretty lardy for the smallest car that BMW make. It would take a very special car indeed for me to consider a performance car purchase weighing over 1.5 tonnes.
Rob,the 1385kg is the E46 CSL chum.
http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications...
135i m-sport = 1565 Unladen!
335i m-sport coupe = 1615 Unladen!
530i m-sport saloon = 1615 unladen
The 130i m-sport hatchback is 1375kg unladen. IMO the new 276hp n/a engine with some tweaks would be a nice lump. The 330i is 55kg's lighter than the 335i, so in theory, and for arguments sake a 130i coupé could be 1500kg's, with a bit of stripping 1450kg’s? Still too lardy. A hatch would be a better start, and with some effort low 1300’s is doable. But only 300hp and 1300kg’s in a hatch form might not be that desirable. Adding the ‘35’ lump might improve things, but would would spend £35k on a non M-Power hatchback BMW, even with 350/350?
IMO they may use the ‘S’ badge!?!?!?
135i m-sport = 1565 Unladen!
335i m-sport coupe = 1615 Unladen!
530i m-sport saloon = 1615 unladen
The 130i m-sport hatchback is 1375kg unladen. IMO the new 276hp n/a engine with some tweaks would be a nice lump. The 330i is 55kg's lighter than the 335i, so in theory, and for arguments sake a 130i coupé could be 1500kg's, with a bit of stripping 1450kg’s? Still too lardy. A hatch would be a better start, and with some effort low 1300’s is doable. But only 300hp and 1300kg’s in a hatch form might not be that desirable. Adding the ‘35’ lump might improve things, but would would spend £35k on a non M-Power hatchback BMW, even with 350/350?
IMO they may use the ‘S’ badge!?!?!?
adycav said:
Edit to add - I prefer N/A cars (especially for my 'M' cars) but I think we have to accept that those days are gone - the quest for better mpg/emissions has led to that.
Not sure their quest for better MPG has gone to plan. The emmission levels are the 135 are astonishining given the performance but the mpg is not. Edited by adycav on Monday 16th November 11:42
Edited by adycav on Monday 16th November 11:42
My 135 is currently averaging 23.3mpg. I used to get a steady 28 from my M3 with similar power minus the blowers.
THhat said, if this becomes a reality I should imagine my dealer will be in touch pretty sharpish and tbh I would be tempted to chop in early for one if it measured up. I love my 135 more than any other car I have owned but I do miss the rawness of my ///M's on occasion.
Edited by ///Mike on Monday 16th November 16:55
L100NYY said:
RobM77 said:
Herman Toothrot said:
L100NYY said:
Herman Toothrot said:
The 1 series 2 door coupe (not the bread van) looks the best BMW for several years in my mind. There was a fully kitted 135i on the BMW stand at the Silverstone GP and I'd have not for a moment hesitated to have chosen it over an M3.
A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
I wouldn't say 1385kg is particularly lardy but something even lighter perhaps with a revvy 4cyl lump would be good fun.A Honda DC2 type R inspired 135i based "M" car would be great. I say DC2 inspired as the last CSL was still really lardy and more of an IT geek show off car than a drivers car.
DC2 1160kg
Ok rwd and 2 extra cylinders + turbos will add weight but this will be a car that costs significantly more than the new price of a DC2 so using more alloy components, carbon panels more upto date technology etc it shouldn't be an unrealistic aim. Mazda got the mk3 MX5 in at 1100kg.
I recently looked at buying one but it's not set up like I thought it would be. The drive by wire throttle had a nasty lag like a standard BMW saloon (even my girlfriend noticed it from the passenger seat on the test drive; considering she can't drive that's quite telling!). My local dealer convinced me (and I do mean convinced after my disapointment in the 135i!) to try a Z4C, which turned out to have a much smaller delay, and I liked it so much that I ended up buying it. This is why I'd welcome an M 1 series; hopefully BMW would take it seriously and give it a proper throttle response. Mind you, over 1500kg (if my figures are right?) is still pretty lardy for the smallest car that BMW make. It would take a very special car indeed for me to consider a performance car purchase weighing over 1.5 tonnes.
Rob,The 1385kg is the E46 CSL chum.
Don't worry, I've still got the Lotus!
The Z4C is for carrying kayaks, bikes, my cello etc. A nice big practical car anonymous said:
[redacted]
Very good point. Feel and handling is what made the E30 great. Straight line pace is nice to have though, and if the E36 n/a 3.2L straight six could deliver 320bhp, I'm sure these days BMW can manage 350! My BMW's 265bhp comes with 37mpg, so I'm sure there's a lot more power to come from it if they get creative with the engine MSTRBKR said:
High revving 3.0L Turbo
1200kg
Cut out all interior toys and gadgets - no heated or electric seats, no sat nav, no multi function wheel.
Maybe even lose the back seats?
Maybe all the others, but keep the back seats - What's the point in buying a saloon car with 2 seats? 1200kg
Cut out all interior toys and gadgets - no heated or electric seats, no sat nav, no multi function wheel.
Maybe even lose the back seats?
If you want to be a trackday merchant and have to have a 1-series (instead of a Z4) you can always take your own seats out...
Am I the only one who thinks removing the rear seats from 4 seater cars for the road is just upmarket Max-Power-ing?
M
Edited by marcosgt on Monday 16th November 17:14
RobM77 said:
Shame they're only autos though I've driven an SLK55 AMG on track a number of times and loved it. In fact so much so I considered buying an SLK350. Yes, the suspension wasn't as focused (in fact it road like a speedboat down a bumpy road!), but it was that auto box that got me on the road; it just didn't suit a performance car. On track, yes it's ok, but on the road it just didn't work. BMW have got it sewn up with that gearbox alone. Good job BMW offer a manual box actually, because their auto is the worst I've ever experienced. It was so bad that when I last drove one it had me in tears of laughter so badly I had to stop the car till I'd recovered!
I'd love one! I've driven an SLK55 AMG on track a number of times and loved it. In fact so much so I considered buying an SLK350. Yes, the suspension wasn't as focused (in fact it road like a speedboat down a bumpy road!), but it was that auto box that got me on the road; it just didn't suit a performance car. On track, yes it's ok, but on the road it just didn't work. BMW have got it sewn up with that gearbox alone. Good job BMW offer a manual box actually, because their auto is the worst I've ever experienced. It was so bad that when I last drove one it had me in tears of laughter so badly I had to stop the car till I'd recovered!anonymous said:
[redacted]
agreed. I would love to see this be a traditional 'M car', make it like my favourite ever M car, the E30 M3. i don't think it will happen, but i wouldn't mind seeing that 's' badge come back, they could make it a 135is freer revving engine with stiffer suspension and sportier interior. bring back the good ol' days of the E30 318is a much understated car IMHO. i've been in some and really like them! not quick quick, but fun for sure!Edited by E21_Ross on Monday 16th November 18:29
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