RE: Driven: Tesla Roadster

[andytk]

For all those banging on about how H2 isn't practical and can't complete against electic cars, as usual you may have missed a point.

Hydrogen will not be generated from electricity. It will, most likely, be generated from coal.

Yup the black stuff.

With carbon sequestering in old tapped out north sea gas fields it makes the worst of fuels into the best of fuels.

A car run on hydrogen with carbon sequestering at the refinery end, wouldn't just be carbon neutral, it would be genuinely zero carbon.

Plus we don't even need fuel cells, there have been plenty of hydrogen IC vehicles.

Having said that, the major breakthrough needed for all electric vehicle is fast charging.

If there was the facility to take a fast (less than 5 mins) full charge (say 100 mile range) at any petrol station with a 2kV connection, then the range issue goes away for most of us. How often are you more than 50 miles from a petrol station in the UK.
In the future, petrol station that don't sell 2kV electric may be as rare as petrol stations that don't sell petrol.....

Andy

[Dagnut]

andytk said:

For all those banging on about how H2 isn't practical and can't complete against electic cars, as usual you may have missed a point.

Hydrogen will not be generated from electricity. It will, most likely, be generated from coal.

Yup the black stuff.

With carbon sequestering in old tapped out north sea gas fields it makes the worst of fuels into the best of fuels.

A car run on hydrogen with carbon sequestering at the refinery end, wouldn't just be carbon neutral, it would be genuinely zero carbon.

Plus we don't even need fuel cells, there have been plenty of hydrogen IC vehicles.

Having said that, the major breakthrough needed for all electric vehicle is fast charging.

If there was the facility to take a fast (less than 5 mins) full charge (say 100 mile range) at any petrol station with a 2kV connection, then the range issue goes away for most of us. How often are you more than 50 miles from a petrol station in the UK.
In the future, petrol station that don't sell 2kV electric may be as rare as petrol stations that don't sell petrol.....

Andy

But did you not listen to Xitup? It won't work...your wasting your time with all your facts and reasonable logic...bloke on't tinernets said it.. must be true

[XitUp]

Re Sarcastic Tw@'s comments about the Clarity:

Nope, I'm pretty sure Honda spent their own money, hoping that more public money will be invested in the infrastructure making their products sell. Only problem with this is that the public money will run out when people realise how inefficient it is.

Although there is a place in Japan making hydrogen from a massive hydro electric plant.

andytk said:

For all those banging on about how H2 isn't practical and can't complete against electic cars, as usual you may have missed a point.

Hydrogen will not be generated from electricity. It will, most likely, be generated from coal.

Yup the black stuff.

With carbon sequestering in old tapped out north sea gas fields it makes the worst of fuels into the best of fuels.

A car run on hydrogen with carbon sequestering at the refinery end, wouldn't just be carbon neutral, it would be genuinely zero carbon.

Are you assuming that C02 is the only/main issue with coal?

andytk said:

Plus we don't even need fuel cells, there have been plenty of hydrogen IC vehicles.

Andy

There are indeed. But they get way less mpg and make way less power than their petrol counterparts. Plus they need very expensive tanks or the H2 evaporates within about a week.

Edited by XitUp on Monday 23 November 19:39

[eldar]

Bottom line is there are several technologies that are potential solutions, and they all have drawbacks. Plus of course the things that haven't been thought of yet.

We actually have plenty of energy available to us here, wind, wave, coal, and nuclear stocks for starters.

Realistically, we are going to be mostly tied to fossil fuel for at least 15 years. I suspect by then we'll be converting to electric power for most things as oil and gas become scarcer/more expensive.

How that power is stored, transmitted and used is almost a side issue

Going to be an interesting time for technology.

[Dagnut]

XitUp said:

Re Sarcastic Tw@'s comments about the Clarity:

Nope, I'm pretty sure Honda spent their own money, hoping that more public money will be invested in the infrastructure making their products sell. Only problem with this is that the public money will run out when people realise how inefficient it is.

Although there is a place in Japan making hydrogen from a massive hydro electric plant.

andytk said:

For all those banging on about how H2 isn't practical and can't complete against electic cars, as usual you may have missed a point.

Hydrogen will not be generated from electricity. It will, most likely, be generated from coal.

Yup the black stuff.

With carbon sequestering in old tapped out north sea gas fields it makes the worst of fuels into the best of fuels.

A car run on hydrogen with carbon sequestering at the refinery end, wouldn't just be carbon neutral, it would be genuinely zero carbon.

Are you assuming that C02 is the only/main issue with coal?

andytk said:

Plus we don't even need fuel cells, there have been plenty of hydrogen IC vehicles.

Andy

There are indeed. But they get way less mpg and make way less power than their petrol counterparts. Plus they need very expensive tanks or the H2 evaporates within about a week.

Edited by XitUp on Monday 23 November 19:39

Look don't take it personally but what kind of reaction where you expecting to "it won't work" you're talking about a technology that is already working.Rather than taking from the national grid, the fuel cell based cars have the potential to give back to the grid.

[XitUp]

By working I meant in the real world, not in the world of concept car experiments.

[Mr Gear]

andytk said:

For all those banging on about how H2 isn't practical and can't complete against electic cars, as usual you may have missed a point.

Hydrogen will not be generated from electricity. It will, most likely, be generated from coal.

Yup the black stuff.

With carbon sequestering in old tapped out north sea gas fields it makes the worst of fuels into the best of fuels.

A car run on hydrogen with carbon sequestering at the refinery end, wouldn't just be carbon neutral, it would be genuinely zero carbon.

Plus we don't even need fuel cells, there have been plenty of hydrogen IC vehicles.

Having said that, the major breakthrough needed for all electric vehicle is fast charging.

If there was the facility to take a fast (less than 5 mins) full charge (say 100 mile range) at any petrol station with a 2kV connection, then the range issue goes away for most of us. How often are you more than 50 miles from a petrol station in the UK.
In the future, petrol station that don't sell 2kV electric may be as rare as petrol stations that don't sell petrol.....

Andy

Yes, hydrogen IC engines work, and yes, so does coal-to-oil technology. But both are criminally wasteful. The whole point of alternative fuel strategies is that they need to be better than what has gone before.

Electric cars with range-extenders have the potential to cut fossil-fuel consumption so drastically that bio-fuels and synthetic fuels will become viable.

[skwdenyer]

andytk said:

For all those banging on about how H2 isn't practical and can't complete against electic cars, as usual you may have missed a point.

Hydrogen will not be generated from electricity. It will, most likely, be generated from coal.

Yup the black stuff.

With carbon sequestering in old tapped out north sea gas fields it makes the worst of fuels into the best of fuels.

A car run on hydrogen with carbon sequestering at the refinery end, wouldn't just be carbon neutral, it would be genuinely zero carbon.

Plus we don't even need fuel cells, there have been plenty of hydrogen IC vehicles.

Having said that, the major breakthrough needed for all electric vehicle is fast charging.

If there was the facility to take a fast (less than 5 mins) full charge (say 100 mile range) at any petrol station with a 2kV connection, then the range issue goes away for most of us. How often are you more than 50 miles from a petrol station in the UK.
In the future, petrol station that don't sell 2kV electric may be as rare as petrol stations that don't sell petrol.....

Andy

Sequestering carbon as a part of coal-based Hydrogen production is not a "sustainable energy model"; it is simply a way of time-shifting the problem. It is also massively wasteful of energy and other resources if not used to create a useful bi-product (as opposed to burying the bi-product in a large hole, nuclear waste style). It is also simply a new way to eat up some natural and non-replaceable mineral deposits for no good reason.

As I alluded-to, and as others have enlarged-upon, synthesising Methanol using sequestered CO2 creates a perfect closed-loop cycle. Burning Methanol does not generate any nasties; it simply returns CO2 to the atmosphere. Using the atmosphere as the transmission medium for the "backhaul" part of the CO2 cycle is good science and very efficient; for every kilo of CO2 removed a kilo of CO2 is replaced.

The trick to high-efficiency is the sequestering process; conventional approaches are rather wasteful of energy, and therefore are only really viable in areas of high insolation. Whilst that may represent a boost to some of the world's poorest (and most arid) areas, it isn't really very efficient - the Methanol then has to be shipped, adding "energy miles" to the equation.

Instead there are now some very promising approaches to localised Methanol production which would allow each state or even county to cost-effectively produce its own fuel - cheaply, efficiently, and with no environmental down-side.

I realise that none of this is as sexy as (wastefully) creating Hydrogen by exotic means and then using it an even more exotic power plant, but it is a damn sight better for the planet and its inhabitants

[Bucket O Frogs]

That'd be really nice, if it had a proper internal combustion engine in it.

Half of the thrill of motoring for me is the noise of an engine, I even get quite excited by a bit of forced induction roar

Electric is great for practical vehicles - Delivering flowers, Milk, bread in the morning, allows people who live in built up areas stay asleep until 7am.
Christ we've been doing it with milk floats for years, they seem to be disappearing though.

I can see the technological advancements for this kind of vehicle being an advantage, but the future has to be some kind of Hybrid - I think James May had the right idea with his Generator in "Geoff".
A hydrogen cell producing electricity for an electric motor makes perfect sense.

I'd still rather the sound of a 911 disappearing up a tunnel

[Bucket O Frogs]

Liking the Methanol ideas though - surely it'll have a much higher octane rating too - meaning smaller engines needed for the same power output?

Or Whopping great power for big engines

[XJSJohn]

So basically what you lot are saying is that i had better buy another 10 year COE for my porker because all petrol cars will probably have been banned and we will be driving around in EV's powered by cow farts or something

eta or i suppose i could install one of these....

Edited by XJSJohn on Tuesday 24th November 04:35

[simonrockman]

Bucket O Frogs said:

Liking the Methanol ideas though - surely it'll have a much higher octane rating too - meaning smaller engines needed for the same power output?

Or Whopping great power for big engines

This is Lotus' prefered solution. A small variable compression ratio engine capable of running on a multitude of liquid fuels but mainly methanol.

Simon

[XitUp]

Butanol is better than methanol really.

[skwdenyer]

XitUp said:

Butanol is better than methanol really.

I presume you mean "butanol fuel" rather than the various compounds to which the term Butanol collectively refers?

The problem with Butanol is that it is not markedly better than petrol in terms of tailpipe emissions, and it has various production constraints.

You're right, as a fuel for an ICE it is better than Methanol; as a zero-carbon (and zero-other-nasties) option it still has some way to go.

[jatinder]

I think I saw that on the A13 last night,

Pulled beside it and the owner gave it some beans, It was only the lack of noise that made me realise it was electric.

I then accelerated again to see if he would do it again, didn't unfortunately.

Pretty sure it was electric though, and it was left hand drive.

Edited by jatinder on Tuesday 24th November 09:06

[Beefmeister]

jatinder said:

I think I saw that on the A13 last night,

Pulled beside it and the owner gave it some beans, It was only the lack of noise that made me realise it was electric.

I then accelerated again to see if he would do it again, didn't unfortunately.

Pretty sure it was electric though, and it was left hand drive.

Could very well be, it is eerily quiet when hoofing it...

[XitUp]

skwdenyer said:

XitUp said:

Butanol is better than methanol really.

I presume you mean "butanol fuel" rather than the various compounds to which the term Butanol collectively refers?

The problem with Butanol is that it is not markedly better than petrol in terms of tailpipe emissions, and it has various production constraints.

You're right, as a fuel for an ICE it is better than Methanol; as a zero-carbon (and zero-other-nasties) option it still has some way to go.

Well, yes, I meant the fuel. Doesn't methanol have the same problems as ethanol with regards to it being hard to transport in current pipe lines?

[Mr Gear]

XitUp said:

skwdenyer said:

XitUp said:

Butanol is better than methanol really.

I presume you mean "butanol fuel" rather than the various compounds to which the term Butanol collectively refers?

The problem with Butanol is that it is not markedly better than petrol in terms of tailpipe emissions, and it has various production constraints.

You're right, as a fuel for an ICE it is better than Methanol; as a zero-carbon (and zero-other-nasties) option it still has some way to go.

Well, yes, I meant the fuel. Doesn't methanol have the same problems as ethanol with regards to it being hard to transport in current pipe lines?

Dunno, but it can't be that much of a problem. I've seen all sorts of cars and bikes running on methanol at Santa Pod.

[Dagnut]

Mr Gear said:

XitUp said:

skwdenyer said:

XitUp said:

Butanol is better than methanol really.

I presume you mean "butanol fuel" rather than the various compounds to which the term Butanol collectively refers?

The problem with Butanol is that it is not markedly better than petrol in terms of tailpipe emissions, and it has various production constraints.

You're right, as a fuel for an ICE it is better than Methanol; as a zero-carbon (and zero-other-nasties) option it still has some way to go.

Well, yes, I meant the fuel. Doesn't methanol have the same problems as ethanol with regards to it being hard to transport in current pipe lines?

Dunno, but it can't be that much of a problem. I've seen all sorts of cars and bikes running on methanol at Santa Pod.

Methanol might have a higher octane rating than petrol but does it have a higher calorific value? if so why aren't cars running it now?

[Mr Gear]

Dagnut said:

Methanol might have a higher octane rating than petrol but does it have a higher calorific value? if so why aren't cars running it now?

That I DO know the answer to: You can dig petrol out of the ground. Methanol, however, needs to be made.