Should winter tyres be made compulsory in the UK?

[F i F]

Snoggledog said:

How long will it be before insurance companies start writing something into the small print about having cold season suitable tyres? This little snow fall we've had has probably cost them a fair amount and they'll be keen to ensure it doesn't happen again.

TO which you'll get someone saying "particularly when insurers' data so far have failed to determine any significant decrease in claims from winter tyre-equipped vehicles during the cold season in comparison to vehicles ruinning (sic) on summer tyres all year round"

To which I'll reply someone who drives like a cock will still drive like a cock regardless.

[900T-R]

F i F said:

Now if one accepts the modern view that there is no sharp cut off at 7C, and there is a grey zone where it's all very much of a muchness.

The 'modern view' as expressed in the most recent tyre tests is that winter tyres start to significantly lose out above 7 degrees, and summer tyres start to significantly lose ground to winters around 0 degrees depending on spec ( ultra high performance tyres being marketed with the remark that they're not meant for operation in near-freezing conditions while for instance my humble H-rated 175/65 Conti PremiumContacts are a bit more universal).
Therefore the 0-7 degree range is the grey zone - which would indicate that in Birmingham for most of a normal winter, summer and winter tyres would be about equally compromised.

Edited by 900T-R on Monday 11th January 13:51

[900T-R]

F i F said:

To which I'll reply someone who drives like a cock will still drive like a cock regardless.

Mabe the insurers would prefer a slow cock to a faster one.

[F i F]

900T-R said:

F i F said:

Now if one accepts the modern view that there is no sharp cut off at 7C, and there is a grey zone where it's all very much of a muchness.

The 'modern view' as expressed in the most recent tyre tests is that winter tyres start to significantly lose out above 7 degrees, and summer tyres start to sginificantly lose ground to winters around 0 degrees depending on spec ( ultra high performance tyres being marketed with the remark that they're not meant for operation in near-freesing conditions while for instance my humble H-rated 175/65 Conti PremiumContacts are a bit more universal).
Therefore the 0-7 degree range is the grey zone - which would indicate that in Birmingham for most of a normal winter, summer and winter tyres would be about equally compromised.

Yes agree based on the stats. Now what happens when the temperature goes outside the 0-7 range, and which is more significantly compromised and falls off the cliff more rapidly?

I'd argue that it is the summer tyres when temps fall below 0C, and in particular when ice / snow is present at which point the grip falls off disastrously. Above 7C the grip of the winters falls off, I've not noticed the grip on mine fall off to the point where I think "aye aye" until about 12/13C and then in particular surface conditions. Even then the grip is progessive and communicative.

Therefore I have made the decision I have, based on need to travel and get there. However I can see that my neighbour comes to a completely different view because he can a) work from home and b) can leave the car on the drive for a couple of weeks with no significant effect on his family or business life. Thus that decision is right for him, and completely opposite decision is right for me.

Thus compulsion for everyone is not the logical way forward in my view.

[900T-R]

F i F said:

Thus compulsion for everyone is not the logical way forward in my view.

Exactly what I've been arguing. Also it makes a lot of difference whether your hatchback is shod with the fashionable 225/45/17 W tyres (which would do my TVR proud, and that isn't going to go anywhere soon in these conditions even when I normally use it all year) or 175/65/15 Hs like on my MINI...

[TedMaul]

omgus said:

If my local tyre place would take take the summers off, store them, put winters on, and then reverse the process for a nominal fee/subscription then i would do it already.

I'm with you on this. I have p600s on the Volvo and they are pretty dreadful in this weather (as per my other thread), but I've not seen winter tyres in my size (despite being given a few links from this site)

Tyres are 225 45 r 17 91v fwiw

[Puk]

No - to a law (fk laws, too many of them already)
YES - winter tyres

Sure you guys don't get much snow in the winter (compared to here in the Ardennes), but under 7 degrees your summer tyres are just pure ste. Makes a huge difference in control and most importantlty, stopping distances are really improved !


And if you come around my place, you'd better put some winter tyres on ! I don't want to have to help some dodgy foreigners stuck with his car in a ditch ...

[JR]

TedMaul said:

I'm with you on this. I have p600s on the Volvo and they are pretty dreadful in this weather (as per my other thread), but I've not seen winter tyres in my size (despite being given a few links from this site)

Tyres are 225 45 r 17 91v fwiw

18 results at Mytyres in V rating and 41 in H rating. (For winter tyres it is usual to step down a speed rating.)

[10 Pence Short]

In a nation that only experiences sporadic burst of bad weather (unlike Scandinavian countries), I think there's greater danger in making tyre changes compulsary.

The UK doesn't have the same weather patterns as continental Europe to justify winter tyres that will not be necessary for 85% of the year.

We as a nation seem unable to accept that sometimes these events happen and seeming they're the exception, we should treat them as such.

[TedMaul]

JR said:

TedMaul said:

I'm with you on this. I have p600s on the Volvo and they are pretty dreadful in this weather (as per my other thread), but I've not seen winter tyres in my size (despite being given a few links from this site)

Tyres are 225 45 r 17 91v fwiw

18 results at Mytyres in V rating and 41 in H rating. (For winter tyres it is usual to step down a speed rating.)

Thanks for the link... tyres are showing as £200 a corner, plus fitting? I'm still with JR, the cost of swapping, finding a place to store etc for maybe 10 days a year makes it a pita. If I had to drive for a living, I think I would, or if I did enough miles that I was swapping them every 3 months anyway.... If I'm honest, I'd rather pay an extra £100 a year in council tax and have them grit/plough the roads properly. I'm getting old....

[F i F]

900T-R said:

F i F said:

Thus compulsion for everyone is not the logical way forward in my view.

Exactly what I've been arguing. Also it makes a lot of difference whether your hatchback is shod with the fashionable 225/45/17 W tyres (which would do my TVR proud, and that isn't going to go anywhere soon in these conditions even when I normally use it all year) or 175/65/15 Hs like on my MINI...

I knew we weren't that far apart.

Now my next point is that besides the vehicle, the other key issues to be considered are such matters as, what type of journeys does one want to do, and which of those journeys does one really need to do, and what is the consequence if those journeys are not made / completed in terms of knock on effects to self, family, business and wider community.

My argument is that there is a sector of society in a number of key areas, and not just public services, who let themselves and us down by not being able to get to work. They need to think about this and plan somewhat better.

Personal anecdote, my Mrs trudged through the snow up to town to attend a specialist clinic appointment at the GP surgery. The specialist nurse could not get into the surgery so the clinic was taken by another nurse who knew nothing about the particular specialism. Thus my wife's time and effort was wasted as was the nurse's and maybe somebody else could have used that slot. A small irritation agreed, but on the days that the nurse failed to get in I drove around on back roads in the area, including up and down some quite steep hills (eg 16 - 20%) without problem.

Again as mentioned on another thread there was an incident when the snow fell quite quickly where ambulance and paramedic was needed at a location which is notorious for being one of the first to get problems in snow. Trying to get some medical help to the site force control centre rang the council as there had been no snow clearance or gritting and roads were blocked by stuck vehicles, only to be told that Worcestershire were not sending out any ploughs or gritters due to the snow. ffs!!

So it gets back to my point that whilst compulsion may not be the way forward there are certain service providers who need to have a cold hard think about themselves.

[Snoggledog]

F i F said:

To which I'll reply someone who drives like a cock will still drive like a cock regardless.

No argument from me there. Although I still think that changing to winter tyres would be a sensible option. Thing is though, there's nothing common about common sense and that's why legislation (or at least a recommendation) might be a good thing in the future.

[Bill]

Puk said:

but under 7 degrees your summer tyres are just pure ste.

Not all summer tyres are created equal. I've been genuinely impressed with the ContiSports I've got on my car at the moment. Even on a damp road at 0 degrees their performance isn't hugely affected. The T1Rs I had previously showed a marked decrease in grip below 5 degrees.

[F i F]

Snoggledog said:

F i F said:

To which I'll reply someone who drives like a cock will still drive like a cock regardless.

No argument from me there. Although I still think that changing to winter tyres would be a sensible option. Thing is though, there's nothing common about common sense and that's why legislation (or at least a recommendation) might be a good thing in the future.

Yes I understand what you say.

Problem is that Govt n general, and Labour in particular, have been very bad in legislating on issues which should be common sense. Too often due to sloppy drafting and /or misuse of powers by the enforcers you end up with a situation where things are not that improved and some people are criminalised who were never a problem in the first place.

Secondly there is so much misinformation. Only this morning on BBC R4 we were treated to some expert talking about how other countries managed who referenced winter tyres as always having studs.

[TedMaul]

F i F said:

To which I'll reply someone who drives like a ck will still drive like a ck regardless.

This is true. Was going up v steep hill, 1 in 2, covered in snow/sleet with traffic lights at top. Was going slowly waiting for lights to change so I didn't have to bring car to standstill. Could see car actually at lights slipping and struggling. Car behind me, sat on bumper all the way up hill... common sense ain't so common.

[Snoggledog]

F i F said:

Problem is that Govt n general, and Labour in particular, have been very bad in legislating on issues which should be common sense. Too often due to sloppy drafting and /or misuse of powers by the enforcers you end up with a situation where things are not that improved and some people are criminalised who were never a problem in the first place.

OT. The current shower in charge of UK Titanic PLC have to cater to the lowest common denominator in order to secure long term votes. Hence the muppet legislation for people who can't or won't think for themselves.

F i F said:

Secondly there is so much misinformation. Only this morning on BBC R4 we were treated to some expert talking about how other countries managed who referenced winter tyres as always having studs.

You're kidding right? Winter tyres have studs? What was the name of the program btw? Wouldn't mind having a listen and putting a note on the BBC PoV site.

[jon-]

Tyre safe have (finally) reacted.

http://www.tyresafe.org/news-and-events/detail/saf...

[Snoggledog]

jon- said:

Tyre safe have (finally) reacted.

http://www.tyresafe.org/news-and-events/detail/saf...

Probably couldn't get into the office

[GTIR]

No

I've quite enjoyed driving around lots of drivers, a couple of RR sports also, and don't think it would be fair if everyone had them. I have to have some enjoyment!

Just a point to note. If you have winter tyres you will nit be using your summer tyres so no extra expense, apart from new rims unless you take them off and replace them.

I have run winter tyres for three years. Michelin Aplin's.

[sb-1]

GTIR said:

No

I've quite enjoyed driving around lots of drivers, a couple of RR sports also, and don't think it would be fair if everyone had them. I have to have some enjoyment!

Just a point to note. If you have winter tyres you will nit be using your summer tyres so no extra expense, apart from new rims unless you take them off and replace them.

I have run winter tyres for three years. Michelin Aplin's.

Are you saying you run winter tyres all year then?