RE: Driven: Ferrari 599 XX
Discussion
Wayne King said:
flemke said:
Show me the clowns in the Ferrari Lifestyle Department and I shall look down into the gutter at them and laugh.
Look down and laugh at them for a doing a job which they more than likely enjoy and like to do? Everyone has a job to do in life, whether you like it or not. That is harsh and unfair. vintageracer01 said:
flemke said:
Wayne King said:
The P4/5, to cut to the chase, is just a rich man's toy at the end of the day. No more than the 599XX is.
With respect, Wayne, although it is true that, in the same sense that brings all of us together here, both vehicles are toys, and it is also true that one would have to be rich to buy either, at base the two projects could not be more different.Whether one likes or dislikes Ferrari hype and hagiography, the Glickenhaus car is the fruit of one man's passion and willingness to take risks in order to make a difference. In contrast, the 599XX or whatever they call it is a superficial exercise in corporate branding.
greygoose said:
Wayne King said:
flemke said:
Show me the clowns in the Ferrari Lifestyle Department and I shall look down into the gutter at them and laugh.
Look down and laugh at them for a doing a job which they more than likely enjoy and like to do? Everyone has a job to do in life, whether you like it or not. That is harsh and unfair. When I wrote "Ferrari Lifestyle Department", I was not referring to people who cut leather or sew t-shirts. They're normal people, like the Ferrari machinists and foundry workers to whom I said I would look up.
Rather, I was referring to those cynical leeches who have chosen (yes, "everyone has a job to do", but the job in this case was not imposed upon them) to make money by magnifying a brand halo effect.
I've got no objection whatever to an organisation's encouraging its supporters, offering them merchandise by which to show their loyalty, and profiting from that. Fine. That's not what we're talking about.
Instead, what Ferrari and Armani and the others do is try to create an aura that a person who has associated himself with that brand - by paying a huge premium merely to possess its label - has somehow elevated himself above others. Wear a black t-shirt and you're wearing a black t-shirt. Wear a t-shirt that is absolutely identical except that there is a little "Armani" tacked onto it and you're making the statement: "I'm so sophisticated that I recognise the difference in quality and style between an Armani t-shirt and other, normal t-shirts, and I'm so successful that I don't care about the difference in price between ten pounds for the normal ones and sixty pounds for this."
It's just bull5hit.
Ferrari could have 5.9 billion fans and sell every one a red cap. Cool. They're supporters.
When they get to selling bog-standard Colnago frames with red paint and a prancing horse for twice the price of the same frame with standard decals, it's a joke, and I disdain people who are in the business of contriving those charades.
To bring us back to the 599XX, if any of the fools who buy one wanted a real driving experience, they could spend the same money to buy a fairly recent Formula One car, hire a crew, take it to any number of circuits, and scare themselves 5hitless. The dynamics that they would experience would greatly exceed anything of which the 1.4 tonne 599 road car-derivative is capable. Of course, in doing so they wouldn't be getting the Ferrari treatment: the Ferrari lanyard with personalised ID card, lunch at the Montana, photo with Giancarlo, and follow-up letter from a Ferrari "Cliente Personal Relationship Manager" saying how much Ferrari valued his input after his recent Fiorano testing session (the one when he thrashed the car at 6/10s and was saved from losing control and crashing multiple times only by the electronics).
Obviously, this sort of experience appeals to some people. I think it's rubbish.
flemke said:
greygoose said:
Wayne King said:
flemke said:
Show me the clowns in the Ferrari Lifestyle Department and I shall look down into the gutter at them and laugh.
Look down and laugh at them for a doing a job which they more than likely enjoy and like to do? Everyone has a job to do in life, whether you like it or not. That is harsh and unfair. When I wrote "Ferrari Lifestyle Department", I was not referring to people who cut leather or sew t-shirts. They're normal people, like the Ferrari machinists and foundry workers to whom I said I would look up.
Rather, I was referring to those cynical leeches who have chosen (yes, "everyone has a job to do", but the job in this case was not imposed upon them) to make money by magnifying a brand halo effect.
I've got no objection whatever to an organisation's encouraging its supporters, offering them merchandise by which to show their loyalty, and profiting from that. Fine. That's not what we're talking about.
Instead, what Ferrari and Armani and the others do is try to create an aura that a person who has associated himself with that brand - by paying a huge premium merely to possess its label - has somehow elevated himself above others. Wear a black t-shirt and you're wearing a black t-shirt. Wear a t-shirt that is absolutely identical except that there is a little "Armani" tacked onto it and you're making the statement: "I'm so sophisticated that I recognise the difference in quality and style between an Armani t-shirt and other, normal t-shirts, and I'm so successful that I don't care about the difference in price between ten pounds for the normal ones and sixty pounds for this."
It's just bull5hit.
Ferrari could have 5.9 billion fans and sell every one a red cap. Cool. They're supporters.
When they get to selling bog-standard Colnago frames with red paint and a prancing horse for twice the price of the same frame with standard decals, it's a joke, and I disdain people who are in the business of contriving those charades.
To bring us back to the 599XX, if any of the fools who buy one wanted a real driving experience, they could spend the same money to buy a fairly recent Formula One car, hire a crew, take it to any number of circuits, and scare themselves 5hitless. The dynamics that they would experience would greatly exceed anything of which the 1.4 tonne 599 road car-derivative is capable. Of course, in doing so they wouldn't be getting the Ferrari treatment: the Ferrari lanyard with personalised ID card, lunch at the Montana, photo with Giancarlo, and follow-up letter from a Ferrari "Cliente Personal Relationship Manager" saying how much Ferrari valued his input after his recent Fiorano testing session (the one when he thrashed the car at 6/10s and was saved from losing control and crashing multiple times only by the electronics).
Obviously, this sort of experience appeals to some people. I think it's rubbish.
Brilliant argumentation.
This is the point that devides the 'enthusiast' that enjoys a certain experience quietly for his own sake from the glamour-seeking show-offs that try to inflate and support their own ego. They do not realize or care that they are falling victim to marketing plans from brand names and get ribbed off by super-premium-margins.
But, well, they might deserve it! If there is this demand or it can be created there is always someone who comes up with the supply. That is how markets work.
The sad story is that Ferrari seems to have chosen this gap in the market! That is why Ferraris from pre-512-Testarossa times are more on the elegant side. After it is the loud and rather embarassing plastic boy racer look.
In that respect, I am sure, Ferrari is knowing what they are doing because it seems to be very profitable!
I find this a shame for such a historically valuable brand. But this is my very personal point of view!
But there are always two sides of a coin. And that is a very good thing - for Britain!
This leaves a lot of room for other high-end sports car manufacturers to cater for people who care about "Power - Beauty - Soul"!
Since Ferrari went "carbon-plastic" (and Porsche went ape with Cayenne and Panamera) , Aston Martin is BACK with fantastic cars! Jaguar is BACK with fantastic cars! Bentley is BACK with fantastic cars! Rolls Royce is back with fantastic cars! Lotus is BACK with fantastic cars! And hopefully TVR will be BACK with fantastic and INSANE cars! And all those designs cater for:
"Power - Beauty - Soul"!
This market is almost entirely to the British!
An exception might be Alfa Romeo. And perhaps a bit Lamborghini. (It's loud but tasteful.)
I am from Germany, but I love the fact that the British motor industry is BACK with so many beautiful cars for the benefit of many employees that can take their very British skills further into the future now. They can keep on building very BRITISH products! (Don't mind the ownership of the company shares here. It's an international issue and that will change over decades again and again. It does not matter.)
Ferrari is no competition here, IMO. They have chosen to be in a different market.
That is why a FXX is a pointless product for people where ego might have a large priority to taste. And, sadly, there will be more "FXX" coming.
Now, is there anyone for
?Edited by vintageracer01 on Saturday 27th February 19:50
M5jimmy said:
Sod the 599 FXX for looks and noise! Honestly!!!
Listen up!!!
... AND - HERE - WE - GO :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqmhgDCf4_o
... and this is a REAL race car!
Edited by vintageracer01 on Saturday 27th February 20:00
Could we immagine if a manufacturer went full bore into making a purpose built road car? You know one that was purposefully created to make a drive down twisty roads fun; one that was small yet roomy inside and had great visibility out of all windows. Maybe something like a porsche quality front-engine evora, built out of Carbon fiber, handling by Lotus, 4 litre 8cylinder, 2800lbs. Maybe I'm just asking for too much. J
j123 said:
Could we immagine if a manufacturer went full bore into making a purpose built road car? You know one that was purposefully created to make a drive down twisty roads fun; one that was small yet roomy inside and had great visibility out of all windows. Maybe something like a porsche quality front-engine evora, built out of Carbon fiber, handling by Lotus, 4 litre 8cylinder, 2800lbs. Maybe I'm just asking for too much. J
NO, you aren't. You are on the right track!!! 
vintageracer01 said:
j123 said:
Could we immagine if a manufacturer went full bore into making a purpose built road car? You know one that was purposefully created to make a drive down twisty roads fun; one that was small yet roomy inside and had great visibility out of all windows. Maybe something like a porsche quality front-engine evora, built out of Carbon fiber, handling by Lotus, 4 litre 8cylinder, 2800lbs. Maybe I'm just asking for too much. J
NO, you aren't. You are on the right track!!! flemke said:
When I wrote "Ferrari Lifestyle Department", I was not referring to people who cut leather or sew t-shirts. They're normal people, like the Ferrari machinists and foundry workers to whom I said I would look up.
Rather, I was referring to those cynical leeches who have chosen (yes, "everyone has a job to do", but the job in this case was not imposed upon them) to make money by magnifying a brand halo effect.
I've got no objection whatever to an organisation's encouraging its supporters, offering them merchandise by which to show their loyalty, and profiting from that. Fine. That's not what we're talking about.
Instead, what Ferrari and Armani and the others do is try to create an aura that a person who has associated himself with that brand - by paying a huge premium merely to possess its label - has somehow elevated himself above others. Wear a black t-shirt and you're wearing a black t-shirt. Wear a t-shirt that is absolutely identical except that there is a little "Armani" tacked onto it and you're making the statement: "I'm so sophisticated that I recognise the difference in quality and style between an Armani t-shirt and other, normal t-shirts, and I'm so successful that I don't care about the difference in price between ten pounds for the normal ones and sixty pounds for this."
It's just bull5hit.
I misunderstood your point and agree one black t-shirt is much like another, a fool and his money are soon parted springs to mind.Rather, I was referring to those cynical leeches who have chosen (yes, "everyone has a job to do", but the job in this case was not imposed upon them) to make money by magnifying a brand halo effect.
I've got no objection whatever to an organisation's encouraging its supporters, offering them merchandise by which to show their loyalty, and profiting from that. Fine. That's not what we're talking about.
Instead, what Ferrari and Armani and the others do is try to create an aura that a person who has associated himself with that brand - by paying a huge premium merely to possess its label - has somehow elevated himself above others. Wear a black t-shirt and you're wearing a black t-shirt. Wear a t-shirt that is absolutely identical except that there is a little "Armani" tacked onto it and you're making the statement: "I'm so sophisticated that I recognise the difference in quality and style between an Armani t-shirt and other, normal t-shirts, and I'm so successful that I don't care about the difference in price between ten pounds for the normal ones and sixty pounds for this."
It's just bull5hit.
greygoose said:
flemke said:
When I wrote "Ferrari Lifestyle Department", I was not referring to people who cut leather or sew t-shirts. They're normal people, like the Ferrari machinists and foundry workers to whom I said I would look up.
Rather, I was referring to those cynical leeches who have chosen (yes, "everyone has a job to do", but the job in this case was not imposed upon them) to make money by magnifying a brand halo effect.
I've got no objection whatever to an organisation's encouraging its supporters, offering them merchandise by which to show their loyalty, and profiting from that. Fine. That's not what we're talking about.
Instead, what Ferrari and Armani and the others do is try to create an aura that a person who has associated himself with that brand - by paying a huge premium merely to possess its label - has somehow elevated himself above others. Wear a black t-shirt and you're wearing a black t-shirt. Wear a t-shirt that is absolutely identical except that there is a little "Armani" tacked onto it and you're making the statement: "I'm so sophisticated that I recognise the difference in quality and style between an Armani t-shirt and other, normal t-shirts, and I'm so successful that I don't care about the difference in price between ten pounds for the normal ones and sixty pounds for this."
It's just bull5hit.
I misunderstood your point and agree one black t-shirt is much like another, a fool and his money are soon parted springs to mind.Rather, I was referring to those cynical leeches who have chosen (yes, "everyone has a job to do", but the job in this case was not imposed upon them) to make money by magnifying a brand halo effect.
I've got no objection whatever to an organisation's encouraging its supporters, offering them merchandise by which to show their loyalty, and profiting from that. Fine. That's not what we're talking about.
Instead, what Ferrari and Armani and the others do is try to create an aura that a person who has associated himself with that brand - by paying a huge premium merely to possess its label - has somehow elevated himself above others. Wear a black t-shirt and you're wearing a black t-shirt. Wear a t-shirt that is absolutely identical except that there is a little "Armani" tacked onto it and you're making the statement: "I'm so sophisticated that I recognise the difference in quality and style between an Armani t-shirt and other, normal t-shirts, and I'm so successful that I don't care about the difference in price between ten pounds for the normal ones and sixty pounds for this."
It's just bull5hit.
Daniel1 said:
greygoose said:
flemke said:
When I wrote "Ferrari Lifestyle Department", I was not referring to people who cut leather or sew t-shirts. They're normal people, like the Ferrari machinists and foundry workers to whom I said I would look up.
Rather, I was referring to those cynical leeches who have chosen (yes, "everyone has a job to do", but the job in this case was not imposed upon them) to make money by magnifying a brand halo effect.
I've got no objection whatever to an organisation's encouraging its supporters, offering them merchandise by which to show their loyalty, and profiting from that. Fine. That's not what we're talking about.
Instead, what Ferrari and Armani and the others do is try to create an aura that a person who has associated himself with that brand - by paying a huge premium merely to possess its label - has somehow elevated himself above others. Wear a black t-shirt and you're wearing a black t-shirt. Wear a t-shirt that is absolutely identical except that there is a little "Armani" tacked onto it and you're making the statement: "I'm so sophisticated that I recognise the difference in quality and style between an Armani t-shirt and other, normal t-shirts, and I'm so successful that I don't care about the difference in price between ten pounds for the normal ones and sixty pounds for this."
It's just bull5hit.
I misunderstood your point and agree one black t-shirt is much like another, a fool and his money are soon parted springs to mind.Rather, I was referring to those cynical leeches who have chosen (yes, "everyone has a job to do", but the job in this case was not imposed upon them) to make money by magnifying a brand halo effect.
I've got no objection whatever to an organisation's encouraging its supporters, offering them merchandise by which to show their loyalty, and profiting from that. Fine. That's not what we're talking about.
Instead, what Ferrari and Armani and the others do is try to create an aura that a person who has associated himself with that brand - by paying a huge premium merely to possess its label - has somehow elevated himself above others. Wear a black t-shirt and you're wearing a black t-shirt. Wear a t-shirt that is absolutely identical except that there is a little "Armani" tacked onto it and you're making the statement: "I'm so sophisticated that I recognise the difference in quality and style between an Armani t-shirt and other, normal t-shirts, and I'm so successful that I don't care about the difference in price between ten pounds for the normal ones and sixty pounds for this."
It's just bull5hit.
Yes and no.Different people have different tastes, and just because I don't like coffee does not mean that it has no intrinsic value.
On the other hand, these little beauties:
are completely and utterly devoid of any redeeming qualities. It is not a matter of taste; it is not even a matter of a lack of taste. Rather, it is a matter of negative taste: a sort of coprophilia-in-pink.
The mere existence of this filth degrades us all and, for the protection of us humans, whatever creature was responsible for it should be caged, or at least sterilised.
It usually takes something like the Pontiac Aztec or VW "Thing" to offend me. Even then my usual reaction is just apathy, and I don't give a second thought to who created or bought it.
ETA: Now I've spent too much time thinking about why those watches were made the way they were. Negative taste? Possibly. So, valuing something that ought to be avoided? The watch's purpose seems to be, not telling time, but a show of extravagance, a declaration of status, and vanity. As for the actual styling decisions (shape, size, proportion) I think lack of taste would be the reason (ie thoughtlessness), as well as the designer essentially setting the dictate that the result only has to satisfy themselves. I wouldn't be so concerned about the latter if they made an attempt to be thoughtful, or if the purpose was to explore a design concept privately.
Negative taste and color: Is it negative taste to put pink on an watch? Is there ever a reason or context to put pink on a watch? Little girls wear pink watches. I wouldn't think an adult would wear the color in any sort of social situation. Would someone privately wear a pink watch? Maybe, if they had strong feelings towards the color. I guess one should avoid most strong hues for watches, unless it is a digital or sports watch. But who the fck am I to determine that? I still end up with apathy. I can't muster the energy to be harsh.
ETA: Now I've spent too much time thinking about why those watches were made the way they were. Negative taste? Possibly. So, valuing something that ought to be avoided? The watch's purpose seems to be, not telling time, but a show of extravagance, a declaration of status, and vanity. As for the actual styling decisions (shape, size, proportion) I think lack of taste would be the reason (ie thoughtlessness), as well as the designer essentially setting the dictate that the result only has to satisfy themselves. I wouldn't be so concerned about the latter if they made an attempt to be thoughtful, or if the purpose was to explore a design concept privately.
Negative taste and color: Is it negative taste to put pink on an watch? Is there ever a reason or context to put pink on a watch? Little girls wear pink watches. I wouldn't think an adult would wear the color in any sort of social situation. Would someone privately wear a pink watch? Maybe, if they had strong feelings towards the color. I guess one should avoid most strong hues for watches, unless it is a digital or sports watch. But who the fck am I to determine that? I still end up with apathy. I can't muster the energy to be harsh.
Edited by 35secToNuvolari on Monday 1st March 09:35
Now we get into why people buy exotic cars in the first instance.
Few buy them to really drive. Many are garage queens that customers get more joy out of polishing than driving. I remember Chris Harris tying himself in knots over putting too many miles on the Gallardo he bought because he enjoyed it too much.
There are all sorts of reasons that are largely unconnected with the driving experience for buying suopercars. The thrill of the ownership experience is enough for many and this is something that Ferrari is focusing on with the XX cars. Not that there's anything too much wrong with that.
The brand prostitution via swathes of prancing horse-branded tat is something else altogether.
Few buy them to really drive. Many are garage queens that customers get more joy out of polishing than driving. I remember Chris Harris tying himself in knots over putting too many miles on the Gallardo he bought because he enjoyed it too much.
There are all sorts of reasons that are largely unconnected with the driving experience for buying suopercars. The thrill of the ownership experience is enough for many and this is something that Ferrari is focusing on with the XX cars. Not that there's anything too much wrong with that.
The brand prostitution via swathes of prancing horse-branded tat is something else altogether.
j123 said:
Could we immagine if a manufacturer went full bore into making a purpose built road car? You know one that was purposefully created to make a drive down twisty roads fun; one that was small yet roomy inside and had great visibility out of all windows. Maybe something like a porsche quality front-engine evora, built out of Carbon fiber, handling by Lotus, 4 litre 8cylinder, 2800lbs. Maybe I'm just asking for too much. J
After looking at the new gaggle of super cars on PH front page (Konigsegg and Pagani) I was kind of thinking the same thing. Pardon the reference but something small like a Dino, orgininal CSL or Elise but with supercar/hypercar components i.e. carbon tub for example. Enough of the these mile wide 500 plus horse power cars. Back on topic. What I gather from the criticism of the 599xx is that it's the equivalent to a tarted up Ferrari baby stroller. Fair enough. One would be better suited buying a 288GTO, F40, or F40LM if they didn't already have one because they are more genuine.
Dagnut said:
vintageracer01 said:
j123 said:
Could we immagine if a manufacturer went full bore into making a purpose built road car? You know one that was purposefully created to make a drive down twisty roads fun; one that was small yet roomy inside and had great visibility out of all windows. Maybe something like a porsche quality front-engine evora, built out of Carbon fiber, handling by Lotus, 4 litre 8cylinder, 2800lbs. Maybe I'm just asking for too much. J
NO, you aren't. You are on the right track!!! Shape Shifter said:
Now we get into why people buy exotic cars in the first instance.
Few buy them to really drive. Many are garage queens that customers get more joy out of polishing than driving. I remember Chris Harris tying himself in knots over putting too many miles on the Gallardo he bought because he enjoyed it too much.
There are all sorts of reasons that are largely unconnected with the driving experience for buying suopercars. The thrill of the ownership experience is enough for many and this is something that Ferrari is focusing on with the XX cars. Not that there's anything too much wrong with that.
The brand prostitution via swathes of prancing horse-branded tat is something else altogether.
I never understood either of these behaviours.Few buy them to really drive. Many are garage queens that customers get more joy out of polishing than driving. I remember Chris Harris tying himself in knots over putting too many miles on the Gallardo he bought because he enjoyed it too much.
There are all sorts of reasons that are largely unconnected with the driving experience for buying suopercars. The thrill of the ownership experience is enough for many and this is something that Ferrari is focusing on with the XX cars. Not that there's anything too much wrong with that.
The brand prostitution via swathes of prancing horse-branded tat is something else altogether.
vintageracer01 said:
Dagnut said:
vintageracer01 said:
j123 said:
Could we immagine if a manufacturer went full bore into making a purpose built road car? You know one that was purposefully created to make a drive down twisty roads fun; one that was small yet roomy inside and had great visibility out of all windows. Maybe something like a porsche quality front-engine evora, built out of Carbon fiber, handling by Lotus, 4 litre 8cylinder, 2800lbs. Maybe I'm just asking for too much. J
NO, you aren't. You are on the right track!!! You might as well just post the same thing in every thread, this is a 599 the best version available, it was never going to be a light weight nimble car, so when you read the story title did you expect an MX-5 sized mid engined roadster or a race trimmed GT car?
It like someone serving you up a steak and you complaining that it doesn't taste like a prawn salad.
Everyone loves light weight sports cars, this isn't one but we're still allowed to like it.
Every thread is dominated by these posts, people trying to portray the "purist" side of their motoring lust...come on a thread about an Elise that has gained weight and size, or an over weight boxster, and with justification, that fact that the baby off the range, the California is a bloater and complain, by all means..but what's wrong wit a car losing 300kg and gaining 100bhp exactly?
Edited by Dagnut on Tuesday 9th March 22:05
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