RE: Driven: New Lotus Elise 1.6

[Twincam16]

braddo said:

LuS1fer said:

In fairness, Lotus had their own V8. I would imagine that people like BMW will always make some suitable engine, it's just getting it for the right price. I know many would consider it sacrilege but a Chevy V8 in a Lotus, given it's size and compactness, wouldn't be wrong except in the eyes of purists.

The LS engines seem to offer it all - light, compact, reliable, powerful, sound great.... About the only thing that seems to count against them for some people is their ubiquity ("not another LS conversion , couldn't you have found something more original and st to drop in?")

There is a Lotus link too - didn't they design the heads on the ZR1 V8?

[peter450]

Indeed, it's a real shame the Rover V8 was not used more by lotus, and i think an Amercian V8 in there later Esprits would have been better than there own in-house engine if i'm honest

[LuS1fer]

Twincam16 said:

braddo said:

LuS1fer said:

In fairness, Lotus had their own V8. I would imagine that people like BMW will always make some suitable engine, it's just getting it for the right price. I know many would consider it sacrilege but a Chevy V8 in a Lotus, given it's size and compactness, wouldn't be wrong except in the eyes of purists.

The LS engines seem to offer it all - light, compact, reliable, powerful, sound great.... About the only thing that seems to count against them for some people is their ubiquity ("not another LS conversion , couldn't you have found something more original and st to drop in?")

There is a Lotus link too - didn't they design the heads on the ZR1 V8?

Yes, but that was the old iron block engine, dohc heads but the power was later equalled by the 405hp LS6 in the C5 Z06 and now eclipsed by current LS engines.

[Idiot Gimp Boy]

dorikin2009 said:

otolith said:

dorikin2009 said:

Would be great if they could get a VTEC unit in but I get the impression that Lotus want an anonymous lump powering their cars. Its all about the handling.

I get the impression that if Lotus had been able to swing it for the right money a Honda VTEC lump is exactly what the Elise would have.

Not sure if it is just about money. Lotus seem to like using Toyota engines. Maybe Toyota pay them???

Lotus have a long standing relationship with Toyota forged by Roger Becker.

[ewenm]

Does anyone other than Atom have an agreement to use Honda engines? I thought Honda were very reluctant (or just charged loads) to let other manufacturers use their engines.

[DangerousMike]

i've seen a few lawnmowers with Honda engines.

[dorikin2009]

ewenm said:

Does anyone other than Atom have an agreement to use Honda engines? I thought Honda were very reluctant (or just charged loads) to let other manufacturers use their engines.

I just don't think Lotus want people talking about the engine. Ariel are tiny and they can afford to use a Honda engine. Maybe the bigger the customer the bigger the charge.

If somebody dropped a vtec unit into an elise. That would interest me.

Perhaps Lotus are still hurting from having to let Satoru Nakajima drive the second Lotus/Honda back in the day. Lucky for them that the other driver was pretty good.

[kambites]

dorikin2009 said:

If somebody dropped a vtec unit into an elise. That would interest me.

http://www.hondaelise.com

And several others. Or you can have an Audi turbo, a Duratec or even a VR6 if you look around.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 21st April 09:24

[LuS1fer]

Isn't the Atom/Elise thing more to do with crash regs and numbers of cars produced. Sticking some meccano round a Honda engine is going to be cheaper in the long run.

[300bhp/ton]

Twincam16 said:

braddo said:

LuS1fer said:

In fairness, Lotus had their own V8. I would imagine that people like BMW will always make some suitable engine, it's just getting it for the right price. I know many would consider it sacrilege but a Chevy V8 in a Lotus, given it's size and compactness, wouldn't be wrong except in the eyes of purists.

The LS engines seem to offer it all - light, compact, reliable, powerful, sound great.... About the only thing that seems to count against them for some people is their ubiquity ("not another LS conversion , couldn't you have found something more original and st to drop in?")

There is a Lotus link too - didn't they design the heads on the ZR1 V8?

No they part developed the LT5 engine in the C4 ZR-1 where they took an L98 OHV unit and got it producing impressive figures for the day with a DOHC arrangent and other improvements. Only downside is the engine was taller, wider, longer, heavier and with a higher centre of gravity. It was also more complex, a lot more difficult and costly to make (GM had to have them built by an engine specialist rather than in house, it was that specialised). And thus more expensive to maintain, service and modifiy. The latter LS6 found in the C5 z06 made the same power with the same displacement but trumped it on all other counts.

[anonymous-user]

The main point about Lotus' use of Toyota engines is they are all fully emissions compliant for sale in USA. I don't know if the same is true of the Honda engines used by Ariel (I'm pretty sure the Atom isn't sold in North America)

As for a Chevy LS engine in an Esprit - yes please! IIRC one of the "big issues" for Esprit was finding an affordable transaxle to cope with the turbo 4-pot let alone the V8. Although Corvette has a rear mounted gearbox the differential sits behind it, making the driveline rather long even if you bolt the gearbox straight onto the back of a mid-engine. The torque of an LS would be a real threat to most available transaxles - certainly at an affordable price. The Mosler road car uses a fancy Getrag 6-speed manual and is savagely expensive.

[kambites]

With modern computer controlled engine management, it's not hard to artificially cut the torque to preserve the gearbox.

[glazbagun]

5 USA said:

The main point about Lotus' use of Toyota engines is they are all fully emissions compliant for sale in USA. I don't know if the same is true of the Honda engines used by Ariel (I'm pretty sure the Atom isn't sold in North America)

I(t is. Used to have GM power, now K20:

http://www.arielatom.com/

[anonymous-user]

glazbagun said:

5 USA said:

The main point about Lotus' use of Toyota engines is they are all fully emissions compliant for sale in USA. I don't know if the same is true of the Honda engines used by Ariel (I'm pretty sure the Atom isn't sold in North America)

I(t is. Used to have GM power, now K20:
http://www.arielatom.com/

For goodness sake at least read what's on their website when you post a link!! They state clearly that the Atom is not road legal in North America.

"All new Ariel Atom 3s sold within the North American market are partially or fully assembled in the USA by TMI AutoTech, Inc. (‘TMI’)....... for the purposes of off-road/competition use. Ariel Atom 3s are not considered to be federalized, production vehicles and do not necessarily meet applicable FMVSS criteria. Therefore, Ariel Atom 3s are not available with 17-digit VIN or PIN numbers. Any potential registration and/or use of an Ariel Atom 3 on any public roadway in USA by any owner/operator is solely an individual owner/operator decision & responsibility for which TMI AutoTech, Inc. assumes no liability or responsibility whatsoever.Transport Canada does not consider the Ariel Atom 3 to be eligible for road registration within Canada."

[glazbagun]

5 USA said:

glazbagun said:

5 USA said:

The main point about Lotus' use of Toyota engines is they are all fully emissions compliant for sale in USA. I don't know if the same is true of the Honda engines used by Ariel (I'm pretty sure the Atom isn't sold in North America)

It is. Used to have GM power, now K20:
http://www.arielatom.com/

Wow! I should read my own post before I reply!! Though, they state clearly that the Atom is not road legal in North America.

"All new Ariel Atom 3s sold within the North American market are partially or fully assembled in the USA by TMI AutoTech, Inc."

EFA. I was helpfully replying to the sales part, not commenting on their road legal status.

[michaeldale00]

Ninjaboy said:

michaeldale00 said:

I've currently got 53 reg 111s which was the last of the 1.8 rover engined elises with the vvc engine. Even back the it had co2 of 163g/kg and combined figure of about 41mpg so this new car doesn't seem to have moved the goal posts so far forward! Granted the rover units have their issues but I'm not sure how great a step forward this is. For me they could have stuck in one of the raft of 1.4 turbo units in the back and
offer something completely diffent and pehaps more suited to the elise

I was thinking that too, the toyota engines don't seem anymore powerful,seem less torquey and are heavier.

It seems like they may offer the best of both worlds, dropping to a 1.6 unit doesnt really seem to offer up anything new to the range, yes it obviously hits eco targets etc and it seems lotus will stick to toyota engines for the foreseable, I just feel there is no other way to flower up what has really been a backward step, and using the economy as a major selling point misses the point of the elise somewhat. As mentioned the host of 1.4 turbo engines may have been an interesting addition to the range and offer something really different. I think fiat quote about 40mpg for their 155bhp 1.4 turbo in a punto so in an elise they would surely come close to the figures quoted on the new 1.6 n/a unit. The original S1 elise 118bhp engine was more than capable and was my first experience in a lotus and the car was never short of pace, but times have changed and the modern elise has grown up and gained a bit of an inflated waistline so it needs a bit of extra power to compensate. It also seems a bit bizzare to offer cruise control for motorway driving and at the same time remove quite a fair chunk of torque - thats a little bit of a confused message. I remember Clarkson doing a great piece on a v12 vantage on Top Gear a few years back stating that big V12 engined cars were a thing of the past and perhaps its the same story for the mighty 1.8's in the back of Elises

[anonymous-user]

glazbagun said:

I was helpfully replying to the sales part, not commenting on their road legal status.

No worries. One or two European specialist sports cars do creap into USA via the side door although they are tiny in number. For instance, some Nobles are built in South Africa and shipped to USA for engine fitment etc.

Lotus have been more serious about USA with full federal compliance on a version of most models.

[dinkel]

michaeldale00 said:

. . . As mentioned the host of 1.4 turbo engines may have been an interesting addition to the range and offer something really different. I think fiat quote about 40mpg for their 155bhp 1.4 turbo in a punto so in an elise they would surely come close to the figures quoted on the new 1.6 n/a unit. The original S1 elise 118bhp engine was more than capable . . .

Driving like granddad will get you those mpg figures. Which is allright when daily driving.

IMO a bit more torque in an Elise would offer all the pace at relaxd driving - shifting all day long is not every ones cuppa. To compete with other 'cheap' sportscars you'll need close to 200 brake to push a 900 kgs car about.

[otolith]

dinkel said:

shifting all day long is not every ones cuppa.

To be fair, the Elise is not meant to be for everyone.

[Fatman2]

No and who buys an Elise for 'relaxed' driving.

From all the reviews I've read I've yet to read anything negative about the new 1.6. The price hike is not that bad given the strength of the £ and is allegedly £900.

Otherwise the gearchange is supposed to be night/day compared with the 'S' and the Cd has dropped too. All positives really.