RE: Driven: Ferrari 599 GTO

[sootyrumble]

Murcielago_Boy said:

I'm sorry but I really cannot help but think about how much I do NOT want this car - at any price...

The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.

I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!

Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.

A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??

Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...

Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....

Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...

I absolutely agree with this comment :-). And i have seen the arguments as to why this is the way it is ie emissions etc but 1605kg is huge for a track special, and lets be honest its still slower than a radical around a circuit, and i guess you wouldn't actually drive it that much due to noise and practicallity, therefore it may be purchased as an investment and again the reason the GTO's, Cobra Daytonas etc are worth so much is the involvement the Visceral pleasure, I will be very much surprised if this becomes as valuable like a 250.
It in all honesty leaves me cold as a technological acheivement its incredible but i can get the same fun on my Xbox just pulling levers and let it work itself out. My favourite supercars of the moment are the Ascari and Noble M600 as they are true cars and to drive them quickly you have to have more talent than myself :-)

[Murcielago_Boy]

chelme said:

Murcielago_Boy said:

chelme said:

Murcielago_Boy said:

Dagnut said:

Some people like going fast...
always the same complaints when a new Ferrari arrives..too many electronics..we want fast light Ferraris.. blah blah blah..you can turn them off as always. Based on a 599 this was never going to be a light weight nimble car..what were you all expecting?

Sorry mate. I hate to disagree when it comes to a new Ferrari but this fake GTO thing (homolgated for nothing) is little more than a technical exercise.

If I may give a quick lecture:

I've experienced this in the 430 Scuderia - the diff basically juggles the power between inside and outside wheels during cornering to ensure that the car matches your steering trajectory. Understeer, and then drive is transferred to the outside rear. Oversteer, and then it's transferred to the inside rear.It's simultaneously amazingly competent and TOTALLY uninvolving.
In addition, too fast going in or too much powering out outright and the computers will brake wheels independently and/or cut power as well - with the overall balance tending toward understeer.

So - Head into a corner and the diff/stability + brakes etc stabilise you and turn you in.
Get to the apex, floor the throttle and the TC, diff etc power you out.

... HOW F**KING BORING IS THAT??

So then you turn it all off...
...And whoa, the car's handling is an absolute mess - massive understeer on the way in (blame the suspension geometry - Ferrari keep setting the cars up for the US market) followed by unpredictable oversteer on the way out (as the e-diff doesn't know how the deploy the power because it's meant to work with the electronics) and nasty momentum oversteer during high-speed cornering.

So then you switch it back on and say "F**K THIS"
Everyone who says the Caterhams/Elises etc will be better are 1 BILLION percent right... it's just no-one would admit it having spent £300 large on this video game.

Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 16:00

Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 1st June 15:59

Some interesting comments here, but its also telling that no independent review of the 430 Scuderia shares Murcielago_Boy's dramatic/irrational views. All have heaped praise or given this car 5 stars...

Autocar:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsVerdi...

Car Magazine:

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results...

Evo:

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2102...

What Car magazine:

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/uk-drive-ferrari-4...

Road and Track (USA):

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2008-ferr...

Auto Sport (Germany):

http://www.sportauto-online.de/supertest/ferrari-4...

all of which strongly suggests that your purported lecture on the subject is in fact utter rubbish Murcielago_Boy

If you want to call my views "utter rubbish" (nice one!) that's fine, however I would still urge you to put down the gushing magazine reviews and speak to owners who have had and driven in a few different Ferraris from a few different eras... The five star reviews will quickly become meaningless... Speak to people who own and have owned many examples of the marque, and thrash these cars DAILY. You'll find a consistently expressed mild disappointment with Ferraris latest offerings.

As for the journos - well I couldn't care less about their opinion. Perhaps I should have trained as a professional driver, borrowed my 430 Scuderia from Ferrari, thrashed it round a circuit for a day, and then given it back (ensuring I only write positive material otherwise they'll never lend the company I work for a car again) and gone back to evaluating hatches etc for a more "accurate" opinion.....
Hell, I've only owned the car - what do I know right?
Sorry pal, If I want to know how a new Ferrari drives, I'm fortunate enough (despite not having had many example) that I can go to Maranello, Italy (or Wandsworth ) and drive one. I don't need a journalist to rate it for me.
Their opinion is utterly meaningless - as it's ME spending MY money and not them....
On release, these people said that the 360 was a great handling car (now widely regarding as a very twitchy machine) - it took them almost 9 years to realise the F50 was one of the greatest Ferraris ever made (after being panned by testers initially) - It took them almost a decade and a half to to realise the 288 is actually a more exciting and even more raw car than the deeply compromised F40. The same testers think that 430 sounds awesome, now that's rubbish, have ever heard a 355, or a 275?? The same people think the 599 was an amazing drivers car when in fact even Ferrari privately admitted to owners that the car is too soft for spirited driving (hence the hideously expensive HGTE upgrade pack).

I'm sorry pal, I know and love my Ferraris wayy to much to undermine their truly great cars by unequivocally loving their latest products and basing my opinion on some journos rose-tinted 1 day driving view.

What's interesting on THIS occasion is that Sutters (reviewer) has hit the nail on the head definitively and Gene has made a PR gaffe by saying the car is better with the electrics.... (no doubt someone at Ferrari will have a go at him for that).

I'm so Sorry to sound so patronising - it's not my intention, but your post was child like.

Basically, get into a 599 GTO after a driving a Clio RS and the Ferrari will be awesome (journo). Get into one after having a go in your mates F50 and you'll think you're playing a playstation game.

What you have just expressed here is YOUR OPINION, and the fact that we all have our preferences.

Some would derive just as much enjoyment out of a Elise or a Caterham (for they may value the way that a car handles more than, say, the sound emitted from a V12), you liked your mates F50, some actually like the 348, another Ferrari 'twitchy on the limit' but 'very rewarding'(I'm quoting people who have driven this car) when driven skillfully etc.

As for the noise, I'd agree that the Ferrari's of old, especially the colombo engined 250s and 275s sound the greatest and having heard a 430 driven past at normal speeds the flat plane V8 sounds like a four pot, but I have also heard a 430 on full tap and it does scream. Granted maybe not as sweet as a 355 (or dare I say a 348) engine does, but you have to remember that these engines were in the same ball park in terms of cubic inches as the old timers. I think that the smaller the engine capacity and the greater the number of cylinders the higher pitch the screams going to be (check out the 1.5 lite V16 produced by B.R.M. in the 50s)

I have to disagree with your comments on retrospective enlightenment. The 360 was criticized for being twitchy when it was first tested by a number of test drivers. The aesthetics were also criticized when compared to the 355.

The 599 was also panned by some critics for its understeer characteristics, but when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids. Similarly when you have this amount of power on a road car you need assistance dealing with the forces at hand because only a few skilled drivers will actually be able to tame these beasts-(well done to sutters for being one of these)Not everyone who buys these cars has an Advanced Drivers/Race Licence.

You cannot compare fairly the old and the new. The old cars were not dogged with emissions regulations and red tape on safety, thats why the old timers sound pure and are lighter. New production cars (that are habitable) are naturally heavier because of safety regulations (once you put V8's and V12 in them) and they have had to find creative ways of producing great sounding power plants.

Ferrari have been bold enough to admit the use of electronics on their cars and I respect that. Any one who celebrates technological advancements would respect it and I for one appreciate what they have done with this 599 GTO.

Hold on a second - it this YOUR opinion you are giving or is it the second hand journalists opinion linked onto your posts that you are giving?
Whose "preferences" are you putting forward here?
Before you point out an "opinion" may I tentatively suggest that it is really your own based on your own experiences, before you say to someone (who has sadly parted with the ££ to own the bloody car) is talking "utter rubbish".

Beyond this, I fully respect what you've said, some people may indeed like the waywardness of the 348 or the (dreadful) sound of a 430 (believe me, I took the OE exhaust off my 430 Spider within 1 day of getting it), and I do respect their opinions and I am NOT arrogant enough to think only an owners opinion counts (which is why I wont post this on the FML section).

BUT...
That's NOT what I'm getting at here.
I said in my original post that Ferrari are throwing massive amounts of tech at their cars (which is irrefutable fact) and taking away from the involvement of their cars - a computer turns you in and a computer drives you out and computer shifts gears for you.
Turn the computers off (in the real world) and you've got a VERY wobbly car

That's simple fact. It's not assertion. It's set in stone. Marc Gene has said it in the bloody road test just posted.

Now I can't argue with you if you say that having a computer doing the driving does not make the care less involving - if that's what you think then we'll agree to disagree - My view based on my own experience, is that having a computer doing the driving is a bloody boring and cannot be offset by a great V12 sound or indeed almost anything else.
And my view has been formed by driving other cars and other Ferraris which are just as up to technologically up to date, just as safety/homologation compliant (Porsche Carrera GT for example) but massively more fun, more involving and more thrilling to drive.

Perhaps I'm a dreamer, but I would like to have seen a 430 Scuderia based GTO with a V12, carbon fibre bodywork, extensive use of composites, possibly stressed member engine and a TC setting with two positions: ON or OFF. That's it - no other electronics -nothing else. It's nothing Ferrari haven't done before and I bet it would be a lot more fun to drive than this video game 599 GTO.
Perhaps Ferrari aren't that stupid - rumour has it, they may do something like that with a V8 Twin turbo in their Enzo replacement.....

[Murcielago_Boy]

sootyrumble said:

Murcielago_Boy said:

I'm sorry but I really cannot help but think about how much I do NOT want this car - at any price...

The article tells me all that's WRONG with Ferrari's today.It's actually confirmed what I've been thinking for quite a few years now: They keep optimising cars around electronics designed to make the car faster, not more **enjoyable**...... and it's pi55ing me off and it's not making for truly classic supercars.

I've had a few Ferrari's now and I cannot help but think they're getting less and less interesting to drive. The performance is insane and the ease of use is incredible - no question. Per se, there is nothing wrong with any one of their products. However the experience is becoming increasingly synthetic and videogame-esque and the involvement is being defined by the performance. Step into a 275GTB/4 and you have fun doing 20mph!

Worse still this electronic optimisation means the cars are actually deeply compromised as soon as the electronics are turned off because none of the systems nor the chassis/diff is setup to operate with all of the gubbins in "off" mode.

A friend of mine, posts here, could have ANY Ferrari and recently purchased an F50 to add to his Carrera GT - it has nothing, no ABS, no e-diff, no stability, no traction, no power steering, no power brakes, no F1 gearbox - nothing.... and it's absolutely the most wonderful, utterly thrilling and absorbing Ferrari I've ever ever driven and I've driven almost ALL of them. Who gives an F**K about it's lap time??

Along those same lines, I think the 355 was a better car than my 430 Spider, I think the 550 Maranello is wayyy more involving than the 599 (which I consider a huge Merc - blasphemy!) and this GTO wouldn't hold a candle to it's 288 forebear let alone the 250...

Someone needs to tell Ferrari that F1 technology makes for fast, boring cars... just look at the racing.....

Still, could be worse. You could buy a Porsche and have to deal with their appalling customer service instead...

I absolutely agree with this comment :-). And i have seen the arguments as to why this is the way it is ie emissions etc but 1605kg is huge for a track special, and lets be honest its still slower than a radical around a circuit, and i guess you wouldn't actually drive it that much due to noise and practicallity, therefore it may be purchased as an investment and again the reason the GTO's, Cobra Daytonas etc are worth so much is the involvement the Visceral pleasure, I will be very much surprised if this becomes as valuable like a 250.
It in all honesty leaves me cold as a technological acheivement its incredible but i can get the same fun on my Xbox just pulling levers and let it work itself out. My favourite supercars of the moment are the Ascari and Noble M600 as they are true cars and to drive them quickly you have to have more talent than myself :-)

[Davey S2]

I was recently lucky enough to drive a mint 1971 Dino and a 430 Spider through France on the way to Monaco. They couldnt be more different.

The Dino reminded me of an older Italian version of a Lotus S1 Elise (which is not surprising given Julian Thompson who designed the S1 Elise owns a Dino and took some styling ques from it for the Elise).

For 'driving' the Dino wins hands down. No assisted brakes, no ABS, no traction control or electric dampers and a proper manual shift.

Hopping out of it into the 430 was a massive difference. It did feel very Playstation like. Obvioulsy a lot faster, far more planted with very sharp handling and powerful brakes. I still enjoyed it imensely (hard not to when you are driving along sun soaked roads in Burgundy in an open top Ferrari!) but it felt very remote after the Dino.

The F1 box is impressive (even though it still juddered going from 1st to 2nd) but after a few days I statred to get a little bored with it and wanted a manual shift again.

I think Ferrari's decision to stop making road cars with the option of a manual shift is a major shame. The fact that a car can change gear in a matter of milleseconds is very impressive and would be a major boost if you were racing where every scrap of time counts but why do you need to change gear in 100 milleseconds on the road?

A gear change in the Dino would take at least 5 times as long as a shift in the 430 in race mode but its so much more satisfying using brake, throttle and gear lever together as opposed to just flexing your index finger an inch.

F50 for me as well please (or more realistically a 997 GT3 will do)

[Dagnut]

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you regarding driving feel and involvement, but you guys are lamenting something that doesn't exist any more, especially Murc Boy, having owned a 430 Scud why would expect this to be any different?
Can anyone really see Ferrari making a 458 scud without the tech?

[sootyrumble]

Dagnut said:

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you regarding driving feel and involvement, but you guys are lamenting something that doesn't exist any more, especially Murc Boy, having owned a 430 Scud why would expect this to be any different?
Can anyone really see Ferrari making a 458 scud without the tech?

I think thats the complaint though I believe ferrari have the capability to produce a car around 1000kg's and maybe 400hp as a track special which would be easily as fast as the 599 GTO and not require all those driver aids. :-( for me thats the lament their cars are getting heavier and heavier which i can undertsand with all the requirements etc but for the Scuderia's and GTO's go back to what they are Homolagated race cars, if i remember correctly Evo magazine awarded the old GT3 RS Porsche their Ecoty car of the year over the Scuderia due to the added driver involvement and joy to drive even though the 430 decimated in every test

[Dagnut]

sootyrumble said:

Dagnut said:

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you regarding driving feel and involvement, but you guys are lamenting something that doesn't exist any more, especially Murc Boy, having owned a 430 Scud why would expect this to be any different?
Can anyone really see Ferrari making a 458 scud without the tech?

I think thats the complaint though I believe ferrari have the capability to produce a car around 1000kg's and maybe 400hp as a track special which would be easily as fast as the 599 GTO and not require all those driver aids. :-( for me thats the lament their cars are getting heavier and heavier which i can undertsand with all the requirements etc but for the Scuderia's and GTO's go back to what they are Homolagated race cars, if i remember correctly Evo magazine awarded the old GT3 RS Porsche their Ecoty car of the year over the Scuderia due to the added driver involvement and joy to drive even though the 430 decimated in every test

But if Ferrari make a stripped down basic chassis, simple 400bhp V8..how are they going to charge 300k for it? Can you really see them taking a step backwards as far as tech is concerned?
Ever since the introduction of the F1 paddle gearbox in the 355 they've realised that's what their customers want.

[sootyrumble]

Dagnut said:

But if Ferrari make a stripped down basic chassis, simple 400bhp V8..how are they going to charge 300k for it? Can you really see them taking a step backwards as far as tech is concerned?
Ever since the introduction of the F1 paddle gearbox in the 355 they've realised that's what their customers want.

Easily get 300k as a limited edition special look at the F40 that had green gunk hanging out, people will pay anything for something that is truly amazing, and i agree that the masses may want fat GT cars with playstattion handling but let the Halo cars hark back to what ferrari are known for fabulous driving machines. As a unique ownership opportunity there are individuals that would laugh at 300k, ie why has the 599 sold out already as per my first post it is no more than a limited edition track car for road use hence the detuned 599 fxx comment.

[Galsia]

Not normally a massive fan of the sound of V12s but that sounds amazing! Just gotta wait my my lotto numbers...

[Davey S2]

sootyrumble said:

people will pay anything for something that has a picture of a prancing horse on it

EFA

[sootyrumble]

Davey S2 said:

sootyrumble said:

people will pay anything for something that has a picture of a prancing horse on it

EFA

LOL Don't get me wrong i love ferraris upto the 355 i just feel they have lost their way, trying to be all things to all men and attempting to make their performance accessible to everyone, which is fine but that is not a GTO. If Mr Ferrari was still alive he would have kicked the responsible marketing executive in the boll*x for the temerity of trying to name a 599 as a GTO :-).

I feel they should put the thoroughbred on a diet.

When i read that you just pull the down gear hit the brakes and it selects the gear for you i just lost all respect for it. Anyone who goes to a track and boasts about their times is an idiot its geek motor racing "My car has a bigger processor than yours" soon you won't be discussing V10's and V12's it will be how much onboard cache your car has :-).

[Dagnut]

sootyrumble said:

Dagnut said:

But if Ferrari make a stripped down basic chassis, simple 400bhp V8..how are they going to charge 300k for it? Can you really see them taking a step backwards as far as tech is concerned?
Ever since the introduction of the F1 paddle gearbox in the 355 they've realised that's what their customers want.

Easily get 300k as a limited edition special look at the F40 that had green gunk hanging out, people will pay anything for something that is truly amazing, and i agree that the masses may want fat GT cars with playstattion handling but let the Halo cars hark back to what ferrari are known for fabulous driving machines. As a unique ownership opportunity there are individuals that would laugh at 300k, ie why has the 599 sold out already as per my first post it is no more than a limited edition track car for road use hence the detuned 599 fxx comment.

They could surprise us all and the F70 could be the reincarnation of the F40?..it has the tt V8 but I very much doubt it..the F40 when it came was the fastest production car in the world,..I think after McLaren raised the Bar so much with the F1 in terms of outright performance Ferrari have looked to do something different, they've looked to be market leaders with tech and innovation, I'm not defending this approach just saying I don't think they will change their approach now...and you could say now MclAren are following suit with the MP4, that will have electronics, paddle gearbox etc.

[KrissJ]

I've been waiting for this GTO in hot anticipation and having now read some reviews and seen Autocar's video it looks and sounds even better than I thought it was going to be! This is the best review I've read of the car. It was very well 'written' with lots of passion and detail on those incredible features. Thanks. :-)

[Kawasicki]

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

[chelme]

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

[Daveyraveygravey]

Loving this debate about technology vs purity. Is it fair to say that Ferrari have been going along this road since the 348, and that the 599 GTO is perhaps the ultimate expression of this? I seem to remember when the 355 was launched the company felt the 348 was too challenging for most people most of the time and they were losing customers to Porsche/BMW/Mercedes because of it.

The only Ferrari I have driven was a 355 at Thruxton and it was fabulous. I still remember the single seat Formula Renault I drove after the 355 (part of the same package) was even more eye-opening, even more of an experience, despite stalling it in the pit lane a couple of times...

Having read the debate here, I watched the video, and imho it does sound fantastic. I noticed the reviewer loved the steering, and he mentioned something about the electronic safety aids going in a new (and positive) direction. Sutters also mentioned the steering quality in his write-up too.

I doubt I will ever have the money to blow the price of a nice 3-bed semi on a car, but if I did I know I would at the very least want to have had a good test drive in this before dismissing it.

[Dagnut]

Daveyraveygravey said:

Loving this debate about technology vs purity. Is it fair to say that Ferrari have been going along this road since the 348, and that the 599 GTO is perhaps the ultimate expression of this? I seem to remember when the 355 was launched the company felt the 348 was too challenging for most people most of the time and they were losing customers to Porsche/BMW/Mercedes because of it.

The only Ferrari I have driven was a 355 at Thruxton and it was fabulous. I still remember the single seat Formula Renault I drove after the 355 (part of the same package) was even more eye-opening, even more of an experience, despite stalling it in the pit lane a couple of times...

Having read the debate here, I watched the video, and imho it does sound fantastic. I noticed the reviewer loved the steering, and he mentioned something about the electronic safety aids going in a new (and positive) direction. Sutters also mentioned the steering quality in his write-up too.

I doubt I will ever have the money to blow the price of a nice 3-bed semi on a car, but if I did I know I would at the very least want to have had a good test drive in this before dismissing it.

Very good point, I'll never get to drive this but I really respect Sutters opinion, I've pretty much watched and read everyone of his reviews and it's safe to say he'd be the first to bemoan the electronics if they didn't add to the experience.

[chelme]

Dagnut said:

Daveyraveygravey said:

Loving this debate about technology vs purity. Is it fair to say that Ferrari have been going along this road since the 348, and that the 599 GTO is perhaps the ultimate expression of this? I seem to remember when the 355 was launched the company felt the 348 was too challenging for most people most of the time and they were losing customers to Porsche/BMW/Mercedes because of it.

The only Ferrari I have driven was a 355 at Thruxton and it was fabulous. I still remember the single seat Formula Renault I drove after the 355 (part of the same package) was even more eye-opening, even more of an experience, despite stalling it in the pit lane a couple of times...

Having read the debate here, I watched the video, and imho it does sound fantastic. I noticed the reviewer loved the steering, and he mentioned something about the electronic safety aids going in a new (and positive) direction. Sutters also mentioned the steering quality in his write-up too.

I doubt I will ever have the money to blow the price of a nice 3-bed semi on a car, but if I did I know I would at the very least want to have had a good test drive in this before dismissing it.

Very good point, I'll never get to drive this but I really respect Sutters opinion, I've pretty much watched and read everyone of his reviews and it's safe to say he'd be the first to bemoan the electronics if they didn't add to the experience.

Spot on Dagnut.

[Adz The Rat]

Amazing car, I would love one.

[Kawasicki]

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.