RE: Driven: Ferrari 599 GTO

[chelme]

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.

Are you speaking of the latest one, can you give me the year it was built?

[Kawasicki]

Yes, the latest one.

[sootyrumble]

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.

Are you speaking of the latest one, can you give me the year it was built?

I think the biggest case in point is the original GTO had a V12 and is still an exceptional handling car, okay it wasn't a 6 litre but i cant find the figures but i wouldn't be surprised if the engine weight was similar due to modern use of lighter materials etc

[Murcielago_Boy]

A lot of the front-engined "disadvantages" are being mitigated by Ferrari nowadays as they're engineering the car to to place the engines between the axles in their so-called "front mid-engined" layout - hence the massive bonnets of these 612/599 and actually the pioneer - the McMerc SLR.
They then slap the gearbox gubbins at the back and car has a "conventional" (namely rear) mid engined weight distribution.
It's excellent mechanical engineering. You've got a front engined car which is actually a mid-engined car and handles like one too.

The cars change direction amazingly well - The problem is, it makes for ugly cars - I remember the first time I drove a 612 - I couldn't believe it. Great handler for such a massive barge.

Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Friday 4th June 13:35

[chelme]

Kawasicki said:

Yes, the latest one.

It seems you are wrong. See below:

http://exoticcars.about.com/od/guidedtours/ig/Bent...

''The Bosch stability control program handles ABS, electronic brake pressure distribution, traction control, engine drag torque control, hydraulic brake assist, and aquaplane detection.''

http://www.cars91.com/featured/bentley-brooklands/

''The extra power and torque available in the Brooklands comes courtesy of a new, free-flowing intake system, a sports exhaust that boasts a 17-percent reduction in back pressure, and recalibrated valve timing and engine management system.''

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-drivi...

''The Brooklands uses a six-speed torque converter automatic transmission with a semi-automatic function and features ESP stability control to reign-in any over-enthusiastic drivers before they get carried away.''

I could go on by I won't bore you...

[chelme]

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.

Are you speaking of the latest one, can you give me the year it was built?

I think the biggest case in point is the original GTO had a V12 and is still an exceptional handling car, okay it wasn't a 6 litre but i cant find the figures but i wouldn't be surprised if the engine weight was similar due to modern use of lighter materials etc

Sootyruble the 250 GTO did not have 661bhp though. It has to be the combination of factors, overall weight, weight distribution, power and traction. The 250 GTO had about (correct me if I am well of the mark here) 300-350bhp. That's not going to test the chassis and tyres of a car in the same way as 661bhp.

[sootyrumble]

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.

Are you speaking of the latest one, can you give me the year it was built?

I think the biggest case in point is the original GTO had a V12 and is still an exceptional handling car, okay it wasn't a 6 litre but i cant find the figures but i wouldn't be surprised if the engine weight was similar due to modern use of lighter materials etc

Sootyruble the 250 GTO did not have 661bhp though. It has to be the combination of factors, overall weight, weight distribution, power and traction. The 250 GTO had about (correct me if I am well of the mark here) 300-350bhp. That's not going to test the chassis and tyres of a car in the same way as 661bhp.

LOL i quite understand that but the question was name a well balanced front engined V12 motor car which it is and the power to weight of the 250 is a fairer comparison 311.58BHP/Tonne plays 442.14BHP/Tonne, and when considering the tyre compounds etc of the older car i think all that Ferrari has proved that they can make a monster go fast when controlled by a computer, 10 laps at warp factor ten maybe fun and exciting but how long before you get bored with the outright pace but lack of involvement. You don't modulate brakes throttle or gear changes its all done for you.

[chelme]

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.

Are you speaking of the latest one, can you give me the year it was built?

I think the biggest case in point is the original GTO had a V12 and is still an exceptional handling car, okay it wasn't a 6 litre but i cant find the figures but i wouldn't be surprised if the engine weight was similar due to modern use of lighter materials etc

Sootyruble the 250 GTO did not have 661bhp though. It has to be the combination of factors, overall weight, weight distribution, power and traction. The 250 GTO had about (correct me if I am well of the mark here) 300-350bhp. That's not going to test the chassis and tyres of a car in the same way as 661bhp.

LOL i quite understand that but the question was name a well balanced front engined V12 motor car which it is and the power to weight of the 250 is a fairer comparison 311.58BHP/Tonne plays 442.14BHP/Tonne, and when considering the tyre compounds etc of the older car i think all that Ferrari has proved that they can make a monster go fast when controlled by a computer, 10 laps at warp factor ten maybe fun and exciting but how long before you get bored with the outright pace but lack of involvement. You don't modulate brakes throttle or gear changes its all done for you.

To insist on a 'lack of involvement' is I think a little presumptious of you. Have you actually driven the 599 GTO? Sutters seems to think it enhances the experience, well, his view is supported by other reviewers from Car and Top Gear. The fact that they appear to share similar views persuades me further. I'll take their word for it... As regards getting bored, I can imagine getting bored with any material object after a while...and to say that 'its all done for you' is getting a bit boring (no pun intended and I don't mean to be too critical but we have already heard this) because all you have to do is turn it off, remember? And when you do turn it off the car is still a blast to drive, so whats the issue here?

[sootyrumble]

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.

Are you speaking of the latest one, can you give me the year it was built?

I think the biggest case in point is the original GTO had a V12 and is still an exceptional handling car, okay it wasn't a 6 litre but i cant find the figures but i wouldn't be surprised if the engine weight was similar due to modern use of lighter materials etc

Sootyruble the 250 GTO did not have 661bhp though. It has to be the combination of factors, overall weight, weight distribution, power and traction. The 250 GTO had about (correct me if I am well of the mark here) 300-350bhp. That's not going to test the chassis and tyres of a car in the same way as 661bhp.

LOL i quite understand that but the question was name a well balanced front engined V12 motor car which it is and the power to weight of the 250 is a fairer comparison 311.58BHP/Tonne plays 442.14BHP/Tonne, and when considering the tyre compounds etc of the older car i think all that Ferrari has proved that they can make a monster go fast when controlled by a computer, 10 laps at warp factor ten maybe fun and exciting but how long before you get bored with the outright pace but lack of involvement. You don't modulate brakes throttle or gear changes its all done for you.

To insist on a 'lack of involvement' is I think a little presumptious of you. Have you actually driven the 599 GTO? Sutters seems to think it enhances the experience, well, his view is supported by other reviewers from Car and Top Gear. The fact that they appear to share similar views persuades me further. I'll take their word for it... As regards getting bored, I can imagine getting bored with any material object after a while...and to say that 'its all done for you' is getting a bit boring (no pun intended and I don't mean to be too critical but we have already heard this) because all you have to do is turn it off, remember? And when you do turn it off the car is still a blast to drive, so whats the issue here?

Ummm the car is dangerous to drive is the general consensus and was designed to be as per the write up.

[chelme]

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.

Are you speaking of the latest one, can you give me the year it was built?

I think the biggest case in point is the original GTO had a V12 and is still an exceptional handling car, okay it wasn't a 6 litre but i cant find the figures but i wouldn't be surprised if the engine weight was similar due to modern use of lighter materials etc

Sootyruble the 250 GTO did not have 661bhp though. It has to be the combination of factors, overall weight, weight distribution, power and traction. The 250 GTO had about (correct me if I am well of the mark here) 300-350bhp. That's not going to test the chassis and tyres of a car in the same way as 661bhp.

LOL i quite understand that but the question was name a well balanced front engined V12 motor car which it is and the power to weight of the 250 is a fairer comparison 311.58BHP/Tonne plays 442.14BHP/Tonne, and when considering the tyre compounds etc of the older car i think all that Ferrari has proved that they can make a monster go fast when controlled by a computer, 10 laps at warp factor ten maybe fun and exciting but how long before you get bored with the outright pace but lack of involvement. You don't modulate brakes throttle or gear changes its all done for you.

To insist on a 'lack of involvement' is I think a little presumptious of you. Have you actually driven the 599 GTO? Sutters seems to think it enhances the experience, well, his view is supported by other reviewers from Car and Top Gear. The fact that they appear to share similar views persuades me further. I'll take their word for it... As regards getting bored, I can imagine getting bored with any material object after a while...and to say that 'its all done for you' is getting a bit boring (no pun intended and I don't mean to be too critical but we have already heard this) because all you have to do is turn it off, remember? And when you do turn it off the car is still a blast to drive, so whats the issue here?

Ummm the car is dangerous to drive is the general consensus and was designed to be as per the write up.

If you are an average driver it will be frightening...keep in race mode, or go and get a 1.6 Elise (or splash out £15 mil + on a 250 GTO). If you are highly skilled driver you may enjoy it without the tech. The great thing about this car is that you need not be hugely skilled when you buy it, but over time, as you get used to the car, get bored with the assists and your skills improve, you have the option to switch of the aids more of the time...getting the know the beast is what must make owning cars like this such a thrill- the look of it, the sound of that engine must all add to the sensation.

I would try to get one of these if my numbers came up tonight, and if I were lucky enough to purchase one (most likely second hand, because it seems they have all been sold) I would keep it for life not just because of its investment value but also the steep learning curve getting to know this car offers. The harder it is, the more rewarding mastering it becomes.

[Kawasicki]

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

Yes, the latest one.

It seems you are wrong. See below:

http://exoticcars.about.com/od/guidedtours/ig/Bent...

''The Bosch stability control program handles ABS, electronic brake pressure distribution, traction control, engine drag torque control, hydraulic brake assist, and aquaplane detection.''

http://www.cars91.com/featured/bentley-brooklands/

''The extra power and torque available in the Brooklands comes courtesy of a new, free-flowing intake system, a sports exhaust that boasts a 17-percent reduction in back pressure, and recalibrated valve timing and engine management system.''

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-drivi...

''The Brooklands uses a six-speed torque converter automatic transmission with a semi-automatic function and features ESP stability control to reign-in any over-enthusiastic drivers before they get carried away.''

I could go on by I won't bore you...

You are not boring me, though I already knew it has DSC. I'm a litle confused with your post, wasn't my whole point that heavy cars can be balanced? The Brooklands is balanced.

[chelme]

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

Yes, the latest one.

It seems you are wrong. See below:

http://exoticcars.about.com/od/guidedtours/ig/Bent...

''The Bosch stability control program handles ABS, electronic brake pressure distribution, traction control, engine drag torque control, hydraulic brake assist, and aquaplane detection.''

http://www.cars91.com/featured/bentley-brooklands/

''The extra power and torque available in the Brooklands comes courtesy of a new, free-flowing intake system, a sports exhaust that boasts a 17-percent reduction in back pressure, and recalibrated valve timing and engine management system.''

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-drivi...

''The Brooklands uses a six-speed torque converter automatic transmission with a semi-automatic function and features ESP stability control to reign-in any over-enthusiastic drivers before they get carried away.''

I could go on by I won't bore you...

You are not boring me, though I already knew it has DSC. I'm a litle confused with your post, wasn't my whole point that heavy cars can be balanced? The Brooklands is balanced.

Kawasicki I'd suggest you read your first response to my post. I suggested that cars which have large capacity engines at the front, i.e. the 6 litre V12 here, require electronic aids to assist in achieving balanced handling. You disagreed, giving me the Brooklands as an example to counter my point. I have posted some facts to demonstrate that the Brooklands also relies on electronic aids to achieve 'balanced handling'.

Perhaps I should have defined 'balanced handling'. Balanced handling = a car that is neutral when entering a corner, going round it, and exiting it i.e. one that does not tend to over/understeer at any one of these stages unless really provoked.

Why would the Brooklands need ESP if it was perfectly balanced and did not need stabilisers to deal with it's tendency to understeer. I have omitted oversteer here because, when you have a large engine at the front, it is generally accepted that the car will tend to understeer, for all the weight up front tends to push it wide,especially when entering tight corners with speed. ESP systems are built to counteract such antics without manufacturers resorting to mechanical solutions like extreme wheel camber angles, tyre compounds etc(used in racing).

In my opinion, a consumer car(i.e. not a purely race car) that demonstrates perfectly balanced cornering(without elecronic aids) ie one that does not tend to over/understeer doesn't exist,though some, like the Elise S1 have come extremely close to this 'ideal'.

[jerwatt]

I think it's an amazing car, and will probably gain value in the long term (I think Ferrari have probably "undervalued" it, like the 360 CS), but I have to agree with Murcielago_Boy about electronic gubbins.

You never read a bad review about any of the mainstream supercars from reviews. I think they should compare them to other similar cars, so that people can tell the differences more, rather than saying they're all 4 or 5 stars, as always seems to be the case. I'd suspect this is for the reason Murcielago_Boy said, the manufacturer would just not let them have as many chances to test the cars in the future.

From my personal experience, I have not had the chance to drive any of these cars myself, but have been a passenger in quite a few great cars. And I would have to agree, being a passenger in a 599 is much more "boring" compared to something lightweight like a Noble or Exige. They're amazing cars, but to get anywhere near the limit you need to be pushing it far beyond the legal limit. Ok, at first you get the excitment of the noise and being pushed back (and generally do even after a while), but it's far less involving than some other cars like an Exige. Hence the car I would like to get when I'm older is a Lotus 2-Eleven.

And yes, Ferrari need to have these electronic stuff for their main cars to keep sales up, but isn't the limited edition lightweight part a way of actually addressing the people who would like a car without all the gizmos? Rather than stripping off a bit of weight and bumping up the price?

Again, it is probably an amazing car, but I would prefer if the lightweight limited edition cars were a bit more raw, rather than a bit more power, bit less weight version of the normal one.

[Dagnut]

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.

Are you speaking of the latest one, can you give me the year it was built?

I think the biggest case in point is the original GTO had a V12 and is still an exceptional handling car, okay it wasn't a 6 litre but i cant find the figures but i wouldn't be surprised if the engine weight was similar due to modern use of lighter materials etc

Sootyruble the 250 GTO did not have 661bhp though. It has to be the combination of factors, overall weight, weight distribution, power and traction. The 250 GTO had about (correct me if I am well of the mark here) 300-350bhp. That's not going to test the chassis and tyres of a car in the same way as 661bhp.

LOL i quite understand that but the question was name a well balanced front engined V12 motor car which it is and the power to weight of the 250 is a fairer comparison 311.58BHP/Tonne plays 442.14BHP/Tonne, and when considering the tyre compounds etc of the older car i think all that Ferrari has proved that they can make a monster go fast when controlled by a computer, 10 laps at warp factor ten maybe fun and exciting but how long before you get bored with the outright pace but lack of involvement. You don't modulate brakes throttle or gear changes its all done for you.

To insist on a 'lack of involvement' is I think a little presumptious of you. Have you actually driven the 599 GTO? Sutters seems to think it enhances the experience, well, his view is supported by other reviewers from Car and Top Gear. The fact that they appear to share similar views persuades me further. I'll take their word for it... As regards getting bored, I can imagine getting bored with any material object after a while...and to say that 'its all done for you' is getting a bit boring (no pun intended and I don't mean to be too critical but we have already heard this) because all you have to do is turn it off, remember? And when you do turn it off the car is still a blast to drive, so whats the issue here?

Ummm the car is dangerous to drive is the general consensus and was designed to be as per the write up.

who says its dangerous to drive? I've read the car review, top gear, seen sutters video reads his reviews...where is this general consensus coming from? I have noting but glowing reviews for this car

[Kawasicki]

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

Yes, the latest one.

It seems you are wrong. See below:

http://exoticcars.about.com/od/guidedtours/ig/Bent...

''The Bosch stability control program handles ABS, electronic brake pressure distribution, traction control, engine drag torque control, hydraulic brake assist, and aquaplane detection.''

http://www.cars91.com/featured/bentley-brooklands/

''The extra power and torque available in the Brooklands comes courtesy of a new, free-flowing intake system, a sports exhaust that boasts a 17-percent reduction in back pressure, and recalibrated valve timing and engine management system.''

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-drivi...

''The Brooklands uses a six-speed torque converter automatic transmission with a semi-automatic function and features ESP stability control to reign-in any over-enthusiastic drivers before they get carried away.''

I could go on by I won't bore you...

You are not boring me, though I already knew it has DSC. I'm a litle confused with your post, wasn't my whole point that heavy cars can be balanced? The Brooklands is balanced.

Kawasicki I'd suggest you read your first response to my post. I suggested that cars which have large capacity engines at the front, i.e. the 6 litre V12 here, require electronic aids to assist in achieving balanced handling. You disagreed, giving me the Brooklands as an example to counter my point. I have posted some facts to demonstrate that the Brooklands also relies on electronic aids to achieve 'balanced handling'.

Perhaps I should have defined 'balanced handling'. Balanced handling = a car that is neutral when entering a corner, going round it, and exiting it i.e. one that does not tend to over/understeer at any one of these stages unless really provoked.

Why would the Brooklands need ESP if it was perfectly balanced and did not need stabilisers to deal with it's tendency to understeer. I have omitted oversteer here because, when you have a large engine at the front, it is generally accepted that the car will tend to understeer, for all the weight up front tends to push it wide,especially when entering tight corners with speed. ESP systems are built to counteract such antics without manufacturers resorting to mechanical solutions like extreme wheel camber angles, tyre compounds etc(used in racing).

In my opinion, a consumer car(i.e. not a purely race car) that demonstrates perfectly balanced cornering(without elecronic aids) ie one that does not tend to over/understeer doesn't exist,though some, like the Elise S1 have come extremely close to this 'ideal'.

The whole point is that Ferrari have stated that the 599 GTO needs stability control. I know the Brooklands doesn't need it. Like most manufacturers Bentley still develop the whole chassis to not actually need DSC. DSC is a safety net, it's not normally needed, even at the limit. Ferrari is unusual (and brave) to release a car which in its natural state is unstable near the limit.

On a related point, is it your belief that any car with DSC is unbalanced? By your own definition of balance the Brooklands is a prime example, and it is heavy and front engined.

[Bellof]

I've just watched the Autocar vid on my laptop, hooked uo to my Hi-Fi system, goosebumps will last till Friday...

[chelme]

Dagnut said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

sootyrumble said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

when you have a car with a 6 litre V12 at the front, you cant expect balanced cornering quality without electronic aids

ahhhhh...yes you can, overall weight does not effect the potential for great balance.

Yes, the operative word being 'potential', but give me an example of a 6 litre front engined car that has demonstrated (i.e. reached the full potential of) perfectly balanced cornering without any electronic aids....then you can counter my point, because at the moment there is not one example I can think of.

Bentley Brooklands, it's a 6.75 litre behemoth that is amazingly balanced and rewarding to drive at the limit.

Are you speaking of the latest one, can you give me the year it was built?

I think the biggest case in point is the original GTO had a V12 and is still an exceptional handling car, okay it wasn't a 6 litre but i cant find the figures but i wouldn't be surprised if the engine weight was similar due to modern use of lighter materials etc

Sootyruble the 250 GTO did not have 661bhp though. It has to be the combination of factors, overall weight, weight distribution, power and traction. The 250 GTO had about (correct me if I am well of the mark here) 300-350bhp. That's not going to test the chassis and tyres of a car in the same way as 661bhp.

LOL i quite understand that but the question was name a well balanced front engined V12 motor car which it is and the power to weight of the 250 is a fairer comparison 311.58BHP/Tonne plays 442.14BHP/Tonne, and when considering the tyre compounds etc of the older car i think all that Ferrari has proved that they can make a monster go fast when controlled by a computer, 10 laps at warp factor ten maybe fun and exciting but how long before you get bored with the outright pace but lack of involvement. You don't modulate brakes throttle or gear changes its all done for you.

To insist on a 'lack of involvement' is I think a little presumptious of you. Have you actually driven the 599 GTO? Sutters seems to think it enhances the experience, well, his view is supported by other reviewers from Car and Top Gear. The fact that they appear to share similar views persuades me further. I'll take their word for it... As regards getting bored, I can imagine getting bored with any material object after a while...and to say that 'its all done for you' is getting a bit boring (no pun intended and I don't mean to be too critical but we have already heard this) because all you have to do is turn it off, remember? And when you do turn it off the car is still a blast to drive, so whats the issue here?

Ummm the car is dangerous to drive is the general consensus and was designed to be as per the write up.

who says its dangerous to drive? I've read the car review, top gear, seen sutters video reads his reviews...where is this general consensus coming from? I have noting but glowing reviews for this car

Well Said Dagnut

[chelme]

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

Yes, the latest one.

It seems you are wrong. See below:

http://exoticcars.about.com/od/guidedtours/ig/Bent...

''The Bosch stability control program handles ABS, electronic brake pressure distribution, traction control, engine drag torque control, hydraulic brake assist, and aquaplane detection.''

http://www.cars91.com/featured/bentley-brooklands/

''The extra power and torque available in the Brooklands comes courtesy of a new, free-flowing intake system, a sports exhaust that boasts a 17-percent reduction in back pressure, and recalibrated valve timing and engine management system.''

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-drivi...

''The Brooklands uses a six-speed torque converter automatic transmission with a semi-automatic function and features ESP stability control to reign-in any over-enthusiastic drivers before they get carried away.''

I could go on by I won't bore you...

You are not boring me, though I already knew it has DSC. I'm a litle confused with your post, wasn't my whole point that heavy cars can be balanced? The Brooklands is balanced.

Kawasicki I'd suggest you read your first response to my post. I suggested that cars which have large capacity engines at the front, i.e. the 6 litre V12 here, require electronic aids to assist in achieving balanced handling. You disagreed, giving me the Brooklands as an example to counter my point. I have posted some facts to demonstrate that the Brooklands also relies on electronic aids to achieve 'balanced handling'.

Perhaps I should have defined 'balanced handling'. Balanced handling = a car that is neutral when entering a corner, going round it, and exiting it i.e. one that does not tend to over/understeer at any one of these stages unless really provoked.

Why would the Brooklands need ESP if it was perfectly balanced and did not need stabilisers to deal with it's tendency to understeer. I have omitted oversteer here because, when you have a large engine at the front, it is generally accepted that the car will tend to understeer, for all the weight up front tends to push it wide,especially when entering tight corners with speed. ESP systems are built to counteract such antics without manufacturers resorting to mechanical solutions like extreme wheel camber angles, tyre compounds etc(used in racing).

In my opinion, a consumer car(i.e. not a purely race car) that demonstrates perfectly balanced cornering(without elecronic aids) ie one that does not tend to over/understeer doesn't exist,though some, like the Elise S1 have come extremely close to this 'ideal'.

The whole point is that Ferrari have stated that the 599 GTO needs stability control. I know the Brooklands doesn't need it. Like most manufacturers Bentley still develop the whole chassis to not actually need DSC. DSC is a safety net, it's not normally needed, even at the limit. Ferrari is unusual (and brave) to release a car which in its natural state is unstable near the limit.

On a related point, is it your belief that any car with DSC is unbalanced? By your own definition of balance the Brooklands is a prime example, and it is heavy and front engined.

I'm not convinced. I haven't read anywhere that you can completely switch the ESP systems off on the Brooklands which strongly suggests that it needs them.

[Verde]

This debate about the preferred design center being the electronically assisted and managed vehicle versus the direct man/machine interface will make the raging arguments about the PDK Porsche's seems like kids stuff. And last far longer as well. Truth is, it is inevitable that this is the future, that the future is here, and it is likely that this 599 GTO is the current best of breed of that design.
It is perfectly reasonable to express whether one favors the idea or not, but it's also certain that it is the fastest way around the track, offers the most diverse driving experience (the same car that enables latte's and bt phone calls can also rocket down your favorite back road), and adds an element of safety when driving the vehicle aggressively.
I've never tried the 599, but having driven a few of these high-performance nannie-assisted cars, I've voted with my wallet and own a 930 and a Ford GT and am very happy with them. Both are exciting machines that could be considered 'widow-makers' compared to their more automated brethren, but it just seems like more fun. For me at least.
That said, for my car that will be my frequent (if not daily) driver, and for my dream car at any given point in the future, I will likely, over time, succumb to whatever is the most modern and performant design of the day. Not sure any of these designs will be the 'classic' that older GTO's, (original) Ford GT's or the like will be, but they are (I drive a 997S) and will be great and exciting cars.
Oh, and regardless, their will never be a latte i mine - whatever it is.

[Kawasicki]

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

chelme said:

Kawasicki said:

Yes, the latest one.

It seems you are wrong. See below:

http://exoticcars.about.com/od/guidedtours/ig/Bent...

''The Bosch stability control program handles ABS, electronic brake pressure distribution, traction control, engine drag torque control, hydraulic brake assist, and aquaplane detection.''

http://www.cars91.com/featured/bentley-brooklands/

''The extra power and torque available in the Brooklands comes courtesy of a new, free-flowing intake system, a sports exhaust that boasts a 17-percent reduction in back pressure, and recalibrated valve timing and engine management system.''

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-drivi...

''The Brooklands uses a six-speed torque converter automatic transmission with a semi-automatic function and features ESP stability control to reign-in any over-enthusiastic drivers before they get carried away.''

I could go on by I won't bore you...

You are not boring me, though I already knew it has DSC. I'm a litle confused with your post, wasn't my whole point that heavy cars can be balanced? The Brooklands is balanced.

Kawasicki I'd suggest you read your first response to my post. I suggested that cars which have large capacity engines at the front, i.e. the 6 litre V12 here, require electronic aids to assist in achieving balanced handling. You disagreed, giving me the Brooklands as an example to counter my point. I have posted some facts to demonstrate that the Brooklands also relies on electronic aids to achieve 'balanced handling'.

Perhaps I should have defined 'balanced handling'. Balanced handling = a car that is neutral when entering a corner, going round it, and exiting it i.e. one that does not tend to over/understeer at any one of these stages unless really provoked.

Why would the Brooklands need ESP if it was perfectly balanced and did not need stabilisers to deal with it's tendency to understeer. I have omitted oversteer here because, when you have a large engine at the front, it is generally accepted that the car will tend to understeer, for all the weight up front tends to push it wide,especially when entering tight corners with speed. ESP systems are built to counteract such antics without manufacturers resorting to mechanical solutions like extreme wheel camber angles, tyre compounds etc(used in racing).

In my opinion, a consumer car(i.e. not a purely race car) that demonstrates perfectly balanced cornering(without elecronic aids) ie one that does not tend to over/understeer doesn't exist,though some, like the Elise S1 have come extremely close to this 'ideal'.

The whole point is that Ferrari have stated that the 599 GTO needs stability control. I know the Brooklands doesn't need it. Like most manufacturers Bentley still develop the whole chassis to not actually need DSC. DSC is a safety net, it's not normally needed, even at the limit. Ferrari is unusual (and brave) to release a car which in its natural state is unstable near the limit.

On a related point, is it your belief that any car with DSC is unbalanced? By your own definition of balance the Brooklands is a prime example, and it is heavy and front engined.

I'm not convinced. I haven't read anywhere that you can completely switch the ESP systems off on the Brooklands which strongly suggests that it needs them.

You can switch the ESP on the Brooklands completely off and even if you couldn't that would give absolutely no clue as to whether the car was balanced or not. It's a big, balanced, front engined car that uses ESP as a safety net, in fact you can drive the car for hours at the limit and even with ESP switched on you might never have a stability control intervention. Like many stable, well balanced cars the ESP doesn't have much work to do.

I don't understand your connection that the fitment of ESP signals that a car is inherently unbalanced. Does the fitment of ABS signal that a car has poor brakes? Or that the fitment of a seat belt signals that a car is likely to crash?

Can you give me one logical reason why a heavy, front engined car can't be unbalanced?