RE: Officially official: BMW 1-series M for 2011

[Escort Si-130]

Beacause it just wont sell. Who cars about weight, if you are not physically lifting it, around less than 1% of buyers would, so pointless.

CraigGTI6 said:

This car will be a horrible compromise, as BMW will not want to make a car that's cheaper and better than their M3...

Why didn't they have the balls to stick to the tii concept and drop a nice revvy 4 cylinder motor in this car? Like a road legal version of the WTCC engine? Put it on a massive weight saving program and create a bespoke chassis, like the original E30 M3 and spend a while tuning the suspension, steering etc to perfection.

This is not a proper M car, just another half baked PR exercise from some young middle manager type who thinks he knows what an M car should be.

This could have been such a good car (I'm not saying that it'll be a bad car per se) and with petrol prices the way they are, who wants a 3 litre six? In this market segment a 120tii would surely have been a massive hit. I would have aspired to owning a lightweight, hardcore 120tii or whatever they may have called it but this? No thanks, pointless and cynical. Who runs the M department these days?

[haidergill]

the-photographer said:

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

Edited by the-photographer on Thursday 3rd June 20:26

I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back.

[Captain Flashman]

aeropilot said:

Captain Flashman said:

Will it have a proper diff

Yes. Photos of the test cars clearly show a proper M-Diff underneath.

Captain Flashman said:

and will they retro fit the hydraulic steering rack used in the earlier 1 series and remove the electric one they use currently?

The 135i has always had the hydraulic rack not the electric IIRC. The speculation is this M1 has the same setup as the M3 has.

hmmm what colour will i get? i like silver with the red interior but a mate has that so it's a no no. maybe black with tan....

[the-photographer]

Dagnut said:

the-photographer said:

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

370z??

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

370z 1471 kg / 331bhp (manual without driver)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

[Ninjaboy]

I Don't give a st about the 135i M, but i'm sad to see the end of the M5/M6 V10 it really was a intresting engine. I've never been a BMW fan but always admired their M car's power,handling and sound from the NA engines.

[havoc]

haidergill said:

the-photographer said:

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back.

A lot of people won't care about rear-seats as long as it's got a half-decent boot.

Add the Z4 3.5 to the list too - natural competitor for the 135i, in some ways...

[pilchardthecat]

havoc said:

haidergill said:

the-photographer said:

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back.

A lot of people won't care about rear-seats as long as it's got a half-decent boot.

Add the Z4 3.5 to the list too - natural competitor for the 135i, in some ways...

BMW add 75kg for a driver and 2 suitcases to the kerb weight figures iirc

[ZesPak]

pilchardthecat said:

havoc said:

haidergill said:

the-photographer said:

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back.

A lot of people won't care about rear-seats as long as it's got a half-decent boot.

Add the Z4 3.5 to the list too - natural competitor for the 135i, in some ways...

BMW add 75kg for a driver and 2 suitcases to the kerb weight figures iirc

wow... is the average german that skinny?

@ "I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back."

Have you sat in the back of a 1-series?

[R66STU]

Im telling no lie.. the salesman told me it was 52k.. it was white, loads of carbon extras.. performance suspension, alloys, bucket seats.. and lots more. was provided by wood bmw in salisbury at their owners open day.

Edited by R66STU on Friday 4th June 09:14

[oagent]

M used to stand for "Motorsport" sadly M now stands for "More Expensive"

[Rusty-C]

havoc said:

Rusty-C said:

Not sure what I don't understand about road car design? Obviously road cars have requirements to make them crash-worthy and pedestrian friendly, but surely that would be far exceeded by an FIA race car (forgetting the pedestrians for a minute), which would be far lighter? Then there's the argument that light cars generate less momentum and are therefore likely to cause less damage to themselves, and other vehicles. Obviously, I understand the packaging of a road car means most (weird) people aren't going to want a dirty big roll-cage taking up space, and that multiple airbags, abs, esp and the like, expected in modern cars, add weight. I'm merely arguing that manufacturers could use a bit more imagination. Take the MP4 C12, a supercar that’s obviously light, but can withstand multiple crash tests without its main structure being damaged in anyway. Sure, most people don’t have the cash for a carbon tub, but surely the principal could be applied to lower cost metal (er carbon).

Oh lord, where to start.

1) Money? Fully-homologated race-cars aren't cheap...and pretty-much EVERY car on the road, bar a very small number of hypercars, is built to a price. And excluding the road-car-based racing series, you'll find that most non-single-seaters are steel-spaceframe with a silhouette body anyway, while the single-seaters are built completely differently from a road-car, so no point even comparing.

2) Roll-cages? Tend to form an important part of the structure of a racing car, but for some reason NCAP don't like having exposed bits of hard metal in a cabin for their dummies to hit bits of their body against. They also make ingress/egress rather more difficult - can't see your Gran getting on with a roll-cage in the car...

3) Carbon-fibre is lovely and light/strong but a bugger to build with and even worse to repair. And costs £££££ (see (1) ). Not going to be used for the next Focus or 3-series.

4) NVH. Racing cars are f'n noisy b'ggers, if you've ever been in one. You'd be surprised how much time, engineering effort, and WEIGHT goes into isolating you from every single reciprocating part in that car!

5) Kit. A racing car doesn't have movable windows, electric anything (bar the radio), or indeed any more seats than are necessary (which don't tend to be adjustable unless you've a spanner handy). Let alone airbags, leather, climate-controlled-multi-CD/DVD sat-nav HDD audio premium-20-speaker everything and a refrigerated glove-box.


...so you'll probably find that safety regs don't have as much to do with it as 'consumer demand'...and within that I'll include price - it's a LOT cheaper to make a car out of ordinary steel than it is to use the high-strength lightweight stuff, let alone extensive amounts of aluminium. But if you're happy to pay £30k for the next Ford Fiesta, then they can probably get it down under the tonne again...

havoc, you miss understand me.

I agree with everything you said (well almost), and you've clearly wandered down more paddocks than me... My basic point was quite a selfish one, but for people like me (and possibly you?), I would happily sacrifice the 'creature comforts' if it meant for a more engaging drive.

My point with the Mclaren is that it is possible to make a light, strong car, obviously at a price - without huge sacrifice.

Closer to my end of the budget, I think (but I’m open to redressing) the only way to do it is to be utterly savage with the toys and er everything else, so electric nothing, scrap the sound-deadening (i like noise), no back seat, bye-bye glass, hello Plexiglas and, of course possibly roll-cage for the afore mentioned rigidity. I'm thinking Renault R26 R, Integra Type R, GT3 RS, Beemer CSL and the like. There’re not enough cars like these and car world’s a lot worse of for it.

[Mr Whippy]

ZesPak said:

pilchardthecat said:

havoc said:

haidergill said:

the-photographer said:

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back.

A lot of people won't care about rear-seats as long as it's got a half-decent boot.

Add the Z4 3.5 to the list too - natural competitor for the 135i, in some ways...

BMW add 75kg for a driver and 2 suitcases to the kerb weight figures iirc

wow... is the average german that skinny?

@ "I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back."

Have you sat in the back of a 1-series?

75kg includes 7kg luggage too, so it's a 68kg driver iirc...

The most pointless measure ever in my view...

Don't they also add something like 90% fuel load?!

I don't get why they can't just say a car ready to drive, but without fuel or people/luggage... Ie, the state it is in as you rock up to the petrol station after just running out of fuel, and get out, with nothing else in the car...

I hate manufacturer figures for weights.

Dave

[BeMo]

Escort Si-130 said:

Beacause it just wont sell. Who cars about weight, if you are not physically lifting it, around less than 1% of buyers would, so pointless.

The E46 M3 CSL was sold out pretty sharpish though, and that had a huge premium over the standard car. So there is/was a market for light weight performance cars it all depends on just how many of these BMW are planning to sell.

[kambites]

BeMo said:

Escort Si-130 said:

Beacause it just wont sell. Who cars about weight, if you are not physically lifting it, around less than 1% of buyers would, so pointless.

The E46 M3 CSL was sold out pretty sharpish though, and that had a huge premium over the standard car. So there is/was a market for light weight performance cars it all depends on just how many of these BMW are planning to sell.

Did BMW actually make a profit on the CSL, or was it a loss leader?

[Dagnut]

BeMo said:

Escort Si-130 said:

Beacause it just wont sell. Who cars about weight, if you are not physically lifting it, around less than 1% of buyers would, so pointless.

The E46 M3 CSL was sold out pretty sharpish though, and that had a huge premium over the standard car. So there is/was a market for light weight performance cars it all depends on just how many of these BMW are planning to sell.

It wasn't ...it actually moved very slowly

-:Reference this months evo the article on the competition package for the M3 mentions this exact point...it wasn't a profitable exercise for BMW

[haidergill]

havoc said:

haidergill said:

the-photographer said:

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back.

A lot of people won't care about rear-seats as long as it's got a half-decent boot.

Add the Z4 3.5 to the list too - natural competitor for the 135i, in some ways...

Errr wouldn't stick the kids in the boot. That's just cruel man and probably against the law.

[haidergill]

Ninjaboy said:

I Don't give a st about the 135i M, but i'm sad to see the end of the M5/M6 V10 it really was a intresting engine. I've never been a BMW fan but always admired their M car's power,handling and sound from the NA engines.

I couldn't afford to run it but I would love an M6 convertible so I could pull the hood and rev that V10!!!!

[aeropilot]

R66STU said:

Im telling no lie.. the salesman told me it was 52k.. it was white, loads of carbon extras.. performance suspension, alloys, bucket seats..

Aah..... you failed to mention all the dealer fitted BMW Perf stuff, which therefore doesn't really make it representative of what a factory ordered car would cost.
You could easily tot up £15k's worth of stuff from the Perf catalogue, but realistically how many people would ever do this ontop of ordering a brand new car is probably close to zero. It wouldn't have obviously cost the dealer £52k though, so it will be a good ex-demo car to buy when they decide to flog it off

[adycav]

There's plenty of room in the rear of a 1-series for kids and women, as long as your wife/girlfriend isn't a fat cow.

My 130i happily took four people (including driver) and their luggage to the airport. My wife and mum were perfectly happy in the back.

Admittedly it was the five door hatch but I've read reports that the coupe is roomier (once you get in of course).

[ammw]

the-photographer said:

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

Edited by the-photographer on Thursday 3rd June 20:26

Current (since 2009) Cayman S is around 315bhp, I believe.