RE: Officially official: BMW 1-series M for 2011

[haidergill]

ZesPak said:

pilchardthecat said:

havoc said:

haidergill said:

the-photographer said:

Audi TTRS 1450 kg / 335bhp (without driver)

Cayman S 1350 kg / 291bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 135i 1560 kg / 302bhp (without driver, I think)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back.

A lot of people won't care about rear-seats as long as it's got a half-decent boot.

Add the Z4 3.5 to the list too - natural competitor for the 135i, in some ways...

BMW add 75kg for a driver and 2 suitcases to the kerb weight figures iirc

wow... is the average german that skinny?

@ "I'd scrub the Cayman as it's only got a seat for the wife can't get the kids in the back."

Have you sat in the back of a 1-series?

Yes and it's got about the same legroom as my previous E36 320i coupe, VW Corrado VR6 hatchback had before that and my first car the E30 320i coupe. The Cayman is a mid engined 2 seater sports car not a daily drive at least in a 911 you can get two young kids in the back!!!

[aeropilot]

adycav said:

There's plenty of room in the rear of a 1-series for kids and women, as long as your wife/girlfriend isn't a fat cow.

My 130i happily took four people (including driver) and their luggage to the airport. My wife and mum were perfectly happy in the back.

Admittedly it was the five door hatch but I've read reports that the coupe is roomier (once you get in of course).

Yup, I'm six foot and was quite happy sitting the back of a 135i behind the drivers seat that was adjusted for a similar 6 footer.

[Dave200]

Great Pretender said:

So what do we reckon: 350bhp?

Hilarious to think that 10yrs ago the E39 M5 'only' had 400bhp, and now the "baby M-car" needs nearly the same to push its over-plump posterior along.

[8400rpm]

The sad fact is, lightweight performance cars with no creature comforts, are not profitable. They're bought by a very limited market in a limited niche.

99% of people out there with money to spend on a performance car want straight line speed, grip, lots of toys, some comfort and a prestige badge to let their friends know they're doing well.

The 135i M or whatever it's called, ticks the boxes and will make a profit for BMW.

I'd be interested to see or hear if there was ever a stripped out racer for the road homologation special, that actually netted a car company a tidy profit, or if they only did it so they could get the car into racing.

[haidergill]

Proof of the puddings in the eating. If it's a good as this then I'd like to eat http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2082...

[willE36]

Sat in the back of a 5dr some 2 or 3 years ago. I'm 6ft and so is the driver. Seem to remember I had enough space.
Like the coupe (in many ways, it seems to have more character than any of the others in the current BMW line up), although the hatchback is seriously challenged. And I'm a hardcore BMW fan! Still think they shouldn't have retired the compact = )

[willE36]

Sat in the back of a 5dr some 2 or 3 years ago. I'm 6ft and so is the driver. Seem to remember I had enough space.
Like the coupe (in many ways, it seems to have more character than any of the others in the current BMW line up), although the hatchback is seriously challenged. And I'm a hardcore BMW fan! Still think they shouldn't have retired the compact = )

[adycav]

Clarkson says it's too small in the back so all those people who've never been near one trot out the same old shyte.

This type of occurence is not exclusive to the 1 series of course.

[ZesPak]

adycav said:

Clarkson says it's too small in the back so all those people who've never been near one trot out the same old shyte.

This type of occurence is not exclusive to the 1 series of course.

Hmm but the 1-series IS very small in the back, and I don't remember clarckson ever saying that about it (only that it looks like st according to him).

Anyway, you give in practicality for RWD, so it's a fair trade. Don't know why you'd want to defend it based on space??

Edit: yes, I've been in a 5dr 1-series on several occasions.

Edited by ZesPak on Friday 4th June 13:42

[adycav]

It's no Maybach admittedly but I honestly found the rear space in my 1 series fine, and I owned one for a year and a half.

[havoc]

Rusty-C said:

My basic point was quite a selfish one, but for people like me (and possibly you?), I would happily sacrifice the 'creature comforts' if it meant for a more engaging drive.

My point with the Mclaren is that it is possible to make a light, strong car, obviously at a price - without huge sacrifice.

Closer to my end of the budget, I think (but I’m open to redressing) the only way to do it is to be utterly savage with the toys and er everything else, so electric nothing, scrap the sound-deadening (i like noise), no back seat, bye-bye glass, hello Plexiglas and, of course possibly roll-cage for the afore mentioned rigidity. I'm thinking Renault R26 R, Integra Type R, GT3 RS, Beemer CSL and the like. There’re not enough cars like these and car world’s a lot worse of for it.

I agree that there should be more cars like that (well, I would).

But sadly, if you look at the market, it doesn't.
- Original ITR wasn't a success (1,500 in UK over 4 years), but the less-hardcore EP3 CTR was a far bigger success
- R26.R a flop despite the reputation of the car it was based on. And what about the Mini Works GP?!?
- E46 CSL didn't sell in huge numbers (although that was partially due to the price premium)
- Noble have sold terribly vs Porsche etc.
- GT3 and RS aren't big sellers for Porsche, and the 968CS wasn't that popular, despite the good press.
- Exige sales vs Elise 111S sales are a glaring example - how many Elise buyers still want a nice tractable engine, 'leccy windows and aircon vs the balls-out hardcore version?



But the silly thing is my ITR has PAS, ABS, e/c/l, e/w (& e/m), a/c and a stereo - the essential stuff for a daily driver, proving you don't need to go as hardcore as the R26.R to get a truly engaging car. Their comparative weights (for similarly-practical cars, the ITR is lighter, notably so vs the stock R26) though show that platforms HAVE got heavier over the years, something we at the lower-end can't get away from.

[havoc]

haidergill said:

Proof of the puddings in the eating. If it's a good as this then I'd like to eat http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2082...

Evo, like most car mags, tend to review (a) vs a car's peer group; and (b) with reference to current cars, not previous generations.

So a good review for car X (e.g. a 135i) doesn't necessarily stack-up against car Y (a 370Z) or car Z (the E36 M3). Not all 5* (or 4*) cars are equal...

[kambites]

Agreed. As much as we might like to wish it otherwise, the market for hard-core sports cars is simply too small to be commercially viable.

[Captain Flashman]

8400rpm said:

I'd be interested to see or hear if there was ever a stripped out racer for the road homologation special, that actually netted a car company a tidy profit, or if they only did it so they could get the car into racing.

the e30 M3? they made 8000 or so i think

Edited by Captain Flashman on Friday 4th June 14:46

[Captain Flashman]

havoc said:

I agree that there should be more cars like that (well, I would).

But sadly, if you look at the market, it doesn't.
- Original ITR wasn't a success (1,500 in UK over 4 years), but the less-hardcore EP3 CTR was a far bigger success
- R26.R a flop despite the reputation of the car it was based on. And what about the Mini Works GP?!?
- E46 CSL didn't sell in huge numbers (although that was partially due to the price premium)
- Noble have sold terribly vs Porsche etc.
- GT3 and RS aren't big sellers for Porsche, and the 968CS wasn't that popular, despite the good press.
- Exige sales vs Elise 111S sales are a glaring example - how many Elise buyers still want a nice tractable engine, 'leccy windows and aircon vs the balls-out hardcore version?



But the silly thing is my ITR has PAS, ABS, e/c/l, e/w (& e/m), a/c and a stereo - the essential stuff for a daily driver, proving you don't need to go as hardcore as the R26.R to get a truly engaging car. Their comparative weights (for similarly-practical cars, the ITR is lighter, notably so vs the stock R26) though show that platforms HAVE got heavier over the years, something we at the lower-end can't get away from.

its funny, i love the idea of the R26.R but i could never spend my money on a front drive car, i have the same problem with the mini. the exige is my lotus of choice, a car i actually want but i don't really fit into it. But i see what you're saying and its a good point probably underlines why we as driving enthusiasts should lobby for homologation rules for motorsport as a way of getting better drivers cars into the market place.

[aeropilot]

Captain Flashman said:

But i see what you're saying and its a good point probably underlines why we as driving enthusiasts should lobby for homologation rules for motorsport as a way of getting better drivers cars into the market place.

Except...... it was the manufacturers that lobbied the FiA etc to effectively put a stop to having to make 'homolgation specials' for the very reason it was costing them too much money in the 'modern' world and they weren't interested anymore, which is why they just started pulling out of various forms of motorsport.

[havoc]

Captain Flashman said:

its funny, i love the idea of the R26.R but i could never spend my money on a front drive car, i have the same problem with the mini. the exige is my lotus of choice, a car i actually want but i don't really fit into it.

When looking at that sort of money...well, you can see what I went for, gambling on repair-bills vs depreciation. Ironically the R26.R is probably as quick/quicker point-to-point than my NSX in the hands of anyone except a very skilled driver...but IMHO speed isn't the be-all and end-all of driving.

[haidergill]

havoc said:

haidergill said:

Proof of the puddings in the eating. If it's a good as this then I'd like to eat http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2082...

Evo, like most car mags, tend to review (a) vs a car's peer group; and (b) with reference to current cars, not previous generations.

So a good review for car X (e.g. a 135i) doesn't necessarily stack-up against car Y (a 370Z) or car Z (the E36 M3). Not all 5* (or 4*) cars are equal...

Naturally you wouldn't compare an M5 to Cayman S. 1 M is a four seater coupe with a good sized boot. I wouldn't compare the 1M to the Cayman S. Cayman S is comparable to M Coupe. Z4M to Boxster S or SLK 55 AMG etc...You get my drift...

[havoc]

haidergill said:

Naturally you wouldn't compare an M5 to Cayman S. 1 M is a four seater coupe with a good sized boot. I wouldn't compare the 1M to the Cayman S. Cayman S is comparable to M Coupe. Z4M to Boxster S or SLK 55 AMG etc...You get my drift...

But some people would. If you wanted a fast, capable coupe but only NEEDED 2 seats, you might well look at the 135i and the Z4 3.5i.

Before I got the NSX I seriously considered an E46 M3 as the most important thing to me was to have a really good driver's car (also drove Elise 111R, Caterham R'sport and a 'vette C5, and very nearly a 996, just to round the list off...bit of a disparate bunch all linked by a certain price-point!).

[the-photographer]

OK, you're lucky it's a quiet afternoon at work...

Audi TTRS 1450 + 75 = 1525 / 335bhp (manual)

Cayman S 1425 kg / 295bhp (manual)

370z 1496 + 75 = 1571 kg / 331bhp (manual)

BMW 135i 1530 kg / 302bhp (manual)

BMW Z4 sDrive35is 1600 kg / 340bhp (7-speed DSG)

BMW 1-M ???? / ???

Should we add any others?

Car	Weight KG (inc driver)
Cayman S	1425
Audi TTRS	1525
BMW 135i	1530
370z	1571
BMW Z4 sDrive35is	1600

Note, it's very hard to calculate accurate weights and even harder to compare car to car. For example, looking at the 370z brochure, the optional 19" wheels add another 29kg