IOM TT Lap time - could a car beat it?

IOM TT Lap time - could a car beat it?

Author
Discussion

Mazda Baiter

37,068 posts

189 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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smifffymoto said:
I can't see any cars suspension coping with the likes of ballaugh bridge,barregarrow.With barregarrow I can see any car in the opposite hedge.
I can't see any motorbikes suspension coping with Ballaugh bridge. That's why they get air over it. The difference being that you could land a car not quite straight from a far higher speed and get away with it, whereas with a bike you are in the wall/ coasting with a snapped chain.

Tom74

658 posts

231 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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Because a car is faster through corners you could take flatter lines through corners like barregarrow which would smooth it out some. As said above if you have the right car it will be faster, just a shame that the powers that be won't allow it.

It would be interesting to hear what the roads open car guys say this year as they have the Porsche as mentioned above.

Speed wise, if you had the balls you could easily match the bikes!

Targarama

14,636 posts

284 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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IMO nothing 'normal' from a showroom on 4 wheels could beat a full-on bike, you'd need something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgzi7A02kSY

Dunk76

4,350 posts

215 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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As someone said, much of the TT is flat out - which would inherently favour a bike... a 200mph car with sufficient downforce would require a lot of power - at the expense of agility and slow corner traction.

A lot of the TT course is very narrow, which again favours bikes - some of the stuff that the bikes straight line would represent significant corners to a car.

I'd still put money on the bike.

smifffymoto

4,582 posts

206 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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I think the really interesting thing would be how much difference there is betwwen rider and driver physiologically over a full 6 lap race distance.

BarnatosGhost

31,608 posts

254 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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Jakg said:
EDLT said:
Tony Pond doing a 100mph lap of the TT course in a "standard" Rover Vitesse that seems to be on slicks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnKyMgry9iQ
Balls. Like. Coconuts.

Bikes are scary... but bouncing a 1.5 ton lump of metal around like that is on a different level.
sorry, but you must be drunk. Its the lack of 1.5 tons of metal that puts the bikers on the higher level.

Bikes are much more difficult to make the most of. Under and oversteer is much, much harder to control, two brakes to worry about not just one, constantly deliberately shifting weight distribution forward backward, left and right, up and down, actively controlling lean angles, managing wheelies and stoppies, you have to hold on whilst doing all this, not just sit still, strapped in. All in a safety context of no seatbelts, airbags or crumple-zones. whilst travelling at a higher average speed than a free-falling sky-diver. If you clip a wall or an apex, chances are it'll be with your head, not your front wing.

Road-racers make racing drivers look like sledging girl-guides.

Wacky Racer

38,234 posts

248 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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I know the TT course very well, having been round it many times, it is unique, and cannot be compared to the "ring"..(imo), there is no way any car will get anywhere near a bike's 131mph lap.....maybe a Pilbeam or similar, but even then.....scratchchin

NORTS

633 posts

221 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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How about a Suzuki Escudo Pikes Peak version? Near 1000bhp and weighs 800kg. 4wd and with huge performance stats.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

275 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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Wacky Racer said:
I know the TT course very well, having been round it many times, it is unique, and cannot be compared to the "ring"..(imo), there is no way any car will get anywhere near a bike's 131mph lap.....maybe a Pilbeam or similar, but even then.....scratchchin
Just don't buy this....

asides, Pilbeam hillclimb car's are hardly designed for high speed work..

Been round the TT cct on a bike (very slowly I hasten to add), and I can't see why the right car would have that much trouble to be honest, just imagine an old Group B rallycar with a tarmac setup and taller gearing...

that said, I still think a Caterham/Elise with enough power would be there...

BarnatosGhost

31,608 posts

254 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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Scuffers said:
Wacky Racer said:
I know the TT course very well, having been round it many times, it is unique, and cannot be compared to the "ring"..(imo), there is no way any car will get anywhere near a bike's 131mph lap.....maybe a Pilbeam or similar, but even then.....scratchchin
Just don't buy this....

asides, Pilbeam hillclimb car's are hardly designed for high speed work..

Been round the TT cct on a bike (very slowly I hasten to add), and I can't see why the right car would have that much trouble to be honest, just imagine an old Group B rallycar with a tarmac setup and taller gearing...

that said, I still think a Caterham/Elise with enough power would be there...
but to average 130 the bikes spend a LOT of time between 160-200mph. What sort of elise or caterham is going to be able to do that even once on this course, never mind a dozen times?

Scuffers

20,887 posts

275 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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BarnatosGhost] said:
but to average 130 the bikes spend a LOT of time between 160-200mph. What sort of elise or caterham is going to be able to do that even once on this course, never mind a dozen times?
ones with enough power....

ML

124 posts

171 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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Scuffers said:
BarnatosGhost] said:
but to average 130 the bikes spend a LOT of time between 160-200mph. What sort of elise or caterham is going to be able to do that even once on this course, never mind a dozen times?
ones with enough power....
It doesn't matter about the power, I doubt even one with ridiculous power would be able to go that fast, even if it could get it down, because they are simply not aerodynamically efficient enough.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

275 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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ML said:
Scuffers said:
BarnatosGhost] said:
but to average 130 the bikes spend a LOT of time between 160-200mph. What sort of elise or caterham is going to be able to do that even once on this course, never mind a dozen times?
ones with enough power....
It doesn't matter about the power, I doubt even one with ridiculous power would be able to go that fast, even if it could get it down, because they are simply not aerodynamically efficient enough.
Whist I agree that getting a Caterham to 200Mph is not practical, they can go significantly faster than 130 (std models are quoted at 150+, and there are a lot out there with quite a bit more than std power)

Same for the Elise, yes, 200 is a tall order, but 170+ is a much easier target.

Point is, even if the bikes can do 200+, actual laptime difference between topping out at 160 and 200 is not that significant, nothing like the difference slowing down another 20-30Mph for the slow stuff will make.


Rotary Madness

2,285 posts

187 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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I recon some of the maddest time attack cars in the series could do it, with a few tweaks.

I mean this is what im talking about, and its even faster this year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiQ6FcyiPag


Dimski

2,099 posts

200 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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Dunk76 said:
As someone said, much of the TT is flat out - which would inherently favour a bike... a 200mph car with sufficient downforce would require a lot of power - at the expense of agility and slow corner traction.

A lot of the TT course is very narrow, which again favours bikes - some of the stuff that the bikes straight line would represent significant corners to a car.

I'd still put money on the bike.
But, are the narrow sections including change of directions?

The Autocar Cadwell park video, Bike vs GTR say that the two areas where the car had an advantage are chicanes (+ alpine loop) and braking.

So my logic is that straight, or single direction narrow bits will favour the bike, a narrow section with a few changes in it may favour the car.

My moneys on the car. But, are we making a fair comparison? Are the IOM TT bikes not race bikes? What about road vs road?

BarnatosGhost

31,608 posts

254 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
ML said:
Scuffers said:
BarnatosGhost] said:
but to average 130 the bikes spend a LOT of time between 160-200mph. What sort of elise or caterham is going to be able to do that even once on this course, never mind a dozen times?
ones with enough power....
It doesn't matter about the power, I doubt even one with ridiculous power would be able to go that fast, even if it could get it down, because they are simply not aerodynamically efficient enough.
Whist I agree that getting a Caterham to 200Mph is not practical, they can go significantly faster than 130 (std models are quoted at 150+, and there are a lot out there with quite a bit more than std power)

Same for the Elise, yes, 200 is a tall order, but 170+ is a much easier target.

Point is, even if the bikes can do 200+, actual laptime difference between topping out at 160 and 200 is not that significant, nothing like the difference slowing down another 20-30Mph for the slow stuff will make.
but what length of road do you need to get a loony lotus to 170? A lot more than to get a bike there.

Exiting a corner at 80, the bikes are up to 150 just a few hundred yards later. And i think that is where they have cars pegged. Their mid- to high-speed acceleration is simply devastating.

Conian

8,030 posts

202 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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If only Forza 3 had the IoM track on it we could at least get some simulation data

BarnatosGhost

31,608 posts

254 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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Dimski said:
Dunk76 said:
As someone said, much of the TT is flat out - which would inherently favour a bike... a 200mph car with sufficient downforce would require a lot of power - at the expense of agility and slow corner traction.

A lot of the TT course is very narrow, which again favours bikes - some of the stuff that the bikes straight line would represent significant corners to a car.

I'd still put money on the bike.
But, are the narrow sections including change of directions?

The Autocar Cadwell park video, Bike vs GTR say that the two areas where the car had an advantage are chicanes (+ alpine loop) and braking.

So my logic is that straight, or single direction narrow bits will favour the bike, a narrow section with a few changes in it may favour the car.

My moneys on the car. But, are we making a fair comparison? Are the IOM TT bikes not race bikes? What about road vs road?
they are warmed up, but basically pretty similar to stock bikes you or i can buy. Comparing them to a single-purpose single-seater open-wheeled racing cars wouldn't be fair.

TuxMan

9,010 posts

239 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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Bet the new. Noble M600 would give it a good go !!! Great chasis with very good power and brakes !!

smifffymoto

4,582 posts

206 months

Sunday 6th June 2010
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The production bikes are pretty much show room except exhaust,suspension internals,mapping etc.. where as the bikes for the senior are very much to WSB spec costing £250,000.Looking at the times though the production bikes are blisteringley quick